Should Holland be replaced as GM? (and moved to front office)

[njx9]

Yzerman was the way to go, but at this point taking a chance on someone new would be better than Holland continually singing mediocrity through their late 30's. Shanahan would have been interesting even. Another example of a GM going by while Holland's country club membership ticks onward. Heck I would even try Pier McGuire to get something new going. I think he would die to try a rebuild for an original 6 team.

I think I'd feel better about 'just making a change' so to speak, if it were someone from far outside of the organization. I'm not sure where the loyalty buck really stops (FO? Illitch?), but I'd hate to dump Holland for someone else who'd be guaranteed to be in the spot too long. I dunno. It's a good question.

Going on a tangent, if we think Holland is just following orders, he's honestly doing so fairly competently, right? The team hovers at the bare edge of mediocre. If we replaced him with someone objectively worse, then trying to follow those orders might inadvertently end up in the rebuild some folks want, which would be a win. If we think he's actually trying to build a Cup team, then we either get someone better and more effective who rebuilds 'on the fly' in a better way (i.e. making trades, not resigning the Helm's and Abbie's of the world to long term contracts), or we get someone worse and the 'rebuild via a playoff miss' crowd gets what they want. Either, I think, only requires that the FO be willing to move on from a bad GM quickly.

 

[Flowah]

Going on a tangent, if we think Holland is just following orders, he's honestly doing so fairly competently, right? The team hovers at the bare edge of mediocre.

No matter what Holland is still fairly competent. The team is at least better than half the teams in the league every season while we've had some huge turnover/losses in terms of talent. He's not terrible at keeping the team playoff competitive. He's just not good at making them cup competitive. And since that's *the entire point* of the league I feel like if we have a chance to bring on someone who is better at that we should do it.

It might be important to find out if Holland is just following orders from the top. Any insiders?

That's a good point though. Holland's probably not going to throw the guy writing his checks under the bus. If he is just taking orders hiring someone new won't be very helpful.

 

[Ezekial]

I think it's less of KH taking orders and more of a mutual agreement in mindset.

 

[MrTaterSalad]

Yes of course Ken Holland should be replaced/fired/asked to retire/whatever. This organization is a ship sailing off without a place to go. Kenny has no plan in place to improve this team and make it competitive over the long-term. Floating on the ocean and hoping you can keep afloat until you reach land somewhere again is not a plan. Treading water is not a plan. Furthermore, the allegiance that he shows towards his own players and towards veterans over 30 has gotten to the point of absolute insanity. These allegiances are holding back the potential development of some of our younger players and are preventing the organization from actually seeing what it has in these players.

I'm no front office expert and couldn't tell you who the best fit to replace Kenny would be. However, I would like to pull someone who is from a winning organization and who understands the direction the game is going; both from an on-ice perspective and from an analytics-statistical perspective. Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman would be obvious first calls. I would also consider staying in house with Ryan Martin. Other names I'd be interested in hearing more about include . . .

Michael Futa (LA Kings: Director of Player Personnel)

Rob Blake (LA Kings: Assistant GM)

Paul Fenton (Nashville: Director of Scouting and Assistant GM)

Julien BriseBois (Tampa Bay: Assistant GM)

 

[Frk It]

I'm no front office expert and couldn't tell you who the best fit to replace Kenny would be. However, I would like to pull someone who is from a winning organization and who understands the direction the game is going; both from an on-ice perspective and from an analytics-statistical perspective. Jim Nill and Steve Yzerman would be obvious first calls. I would also consider staying in house with Ryan Martin. Other names I'd be interested in hearing more about include . . .

Michael Futa (LA Kings: Director of Player Personnel)

Rob Blake (LA Kings: Assistant GM)

Paul Fenton (Nashville: Director of Scouting and Assistant GM)

Julien BriseBois (Tampa Bay: Assistant GM)

I think Botterill in Pitt is regarded as one of the better Assistant GM's as well. Hard to say, because it's hard to know who is responsible for what.

I think it's less of KH taking orders and more of a mutual agreement in mindset.

If he is just following orders, I'd really like to know how much longer the orders are supposed to be in place for.

Like just until we are in the new building? Or are we supposed to try and keep the streak alive for as long as possible, and then if it ends we contemplate rebuilding?

 

[Retire91]

I totally agree in the context of keeping the team playoff competitive Holland has been awesome. I just don't know what the end game is. Even though he keeps the team in the playoffs the team leaks a lititle talent here and there by loosing picks to trade and signing less than desirable mercenaries. My biggest fear is Holland signing to these terms. At this rate no matter what happens either he or the next GM is going to have many dead weight contracts holding the team down. That damage needs to stop. I would like to see the hockey media starto calling him out. Holland what up with those terms on bottom 6 players?

 

[Frk It]

I'm not sure how crazy that Datsyuk trade was. Pretty much everyone expected it to happen. They even knew which team it would go to. Good for Holland for managing to do it for pretty cheap but I would not call it "crazy." That seems more as expected than crazy to me.

Here's the problem with going with a GM who doesn't draft as well. One of the big reasons I'm upset with Holland is *we have good pieces to trade with* but he won't do it. A GM who can't draft well won't have those pieces. You can't get anywhere without drafting in today's league. I put far more faith in Holland growing a pair than I do in a GM who can't draft in assembling a contending team.

Literally if Holland just stopped getting so damn attached to his veterans this team would be far, far better. It's not the biggest flaw in the world but it's enough to keep the team mediocre because of all the cascading effects.

I guess that depends though on how much worse at drafting.

Drafting assets that have trade value but being unwilling to trade them I would consider a serious issue.

But I don't think that's actually even the case. I think in the last 5 years, we have cultivated one great trade asset, and that's Dylan Larkin. That's it. Every single time we have been rumored to pursuing a player via trade we hear that they ask for Larkin, and then that trade always falls through. Hmm, why is that?

You think he didn't try to replace his other guys and run through several other options with that GM that asked for Larkin? Of course he did. And they took their services elsewhere and traded for someone else. Every single time. Or just didn't make a trade at all.

I have a hard time believing Holland wouldn't trade Nyquist or Tatar for a defenseman for as desperately as we need one, and have needed one. I have a much easier time believing that no teams want them in exchange for their young skilled defenseman.

 

[19 for president]

He should have retired when Lidstrom did. The game has passed him by, and he has probably screwed this team for the next 5 seasons now with the Abby, Helm, Ericsson, and Howard contracts. He is still treating this team likes its 2002. He refuses to make trades and at this point it is comical. Since the Cap he has made 23 trades. The next fewest is NJ at 50. I don't mind being a low trade team but when you are at 50% of the next lowest team, that is a sign of simply being set in your ways. At this point I'd go for just about anyone over Holland. Nill or Yzerman would be great, and should have happened seasons ago, but I think that ship has sailed.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

My worry is that this stuff happens because the Ilitches don't really care about the Wings anymore. Maybe they're not pushing hard to win cups anymore. Maybe it's enough to them now to just make the playoffs and make that little extra bit of money. Maybe rebuilding is off the table, no matter who's asking for it or why, because they need to support their investments (like the pizzarena). And for them to be such great owners for such a long time, that would be falling pretty far.

 

[mindfly]

He should be fired and not allowed to have contact with the organization again IMO

 

[Btele]

I voted yes, even though I am afraid we don't have his replacement in the system.
I just think that he stayed too long in this position. The front office used to be a forward thinking group, but I am not sure they are now.

They finally hired a guy last summer for statistical analysis. According to their website, he works on "advanced statistical analysis and analytics in the areas of salary trends, contract valuations, free agent market acquisitions, trades and other areas, as well as comparative research for contract negotiations and salary arbitrations, collective bargaining agreement administration and compliance and coordinating player transactions. He will also scout games locally at the professional, collegiate and junior levels."

To me, he sounds like a salary cap guy with his experience in finance sector.

Meanwhile, Toronto lists four people under Hockey Research and Development, Analyst.

I am not saying that focusing on analytics is the only way to improve this team, but they need to take more progressive approach in running this team.

 

[Flowah]

Drafting assets that have trade value but being unwilling to trade them I would consider a serious issue.

But I don't think that's actually even the case. I think in the last 5 years, we have cultivated one great trade asset, and that's Dylan Larkin. That's it. Every single time we have been rumored to pursuing a player via trade we hear that they ask for Larkin, and then that trade always falls through. Hmm, why is that?

You think he didn't try to replace his other guys and run through several other options with that GM that asked for Larkin? Of course he did. And they took their services elsewhere and traded for someone else. Every single time. Or just didn't make a trade at all.

I have a hard time believing Holland wouldn't trade Nyquist or Tatar for a defenseman for as desperately as we need one, and have needed one. I have a much easier time believing that no teams want them in exchange for their young skilled defenseman.

You don't think any teams out there would start with Nyquist/Tatar for a middling defenseman? Obviously only Nyquist/Tatar doesn't get you close to a top pairing guy but we could use decent middle pairing guys too.

The Wings have been the lowest trading team for the past few years for a reason. Holland just doesn't do it. He loves his players too much and he always thinks the prices are high.

Young, fast 20+ goal and 40+point scoring wingers aren't chump change.

 

[sean3250]

Detroit Red Wings 2017 Front Office:

GM: Paul Fenton
HC: Todd Nelson

It's about time Detroit pried away someone else's front office talent.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

obviously you dont have him move on until a new GM is in place but the man has clearly become tired and set in his ways while the rest of the league, the game itself and his peers have evolved

 

[Frk It]

You don't think any teams out there would start with Nyquist/Tatar for a middling defenseman? Obviously only Nyquist/Tatar doesn't get you close to a top pairing guy but we could use decent middle pairing guys too.

The Wings have been the lowest trading team for the past few years for a reason. Holland just doesn't do it. He loves his players too much and he always thinks the prices are high.

Young, fast 20+ goal and 40+point scoring wingers aren't chump change.

Don't really think we need a middling defenseman. At all.

We have a roster full of middle and bottom pairing defenseman. We need a top pairing guy to push everyone down to their rightful spot.

Now maybe you add a 1st and/or prospect like Mantha/Svech in to get there, but we absolutely need that. That is the kind of agressive measure we need to be looking to take.

Trading Nyquist or Tatar for a "decent middle pairing guy" would actually make me more mad than Holland doing nothing. You want a decent middle pairing guy? Re-sign Kyle Quincey. Pick up Jason Demers. Trade a pick for Goligoski's negotiation rights. Trade a bad player for Trevor Daley. Those guys aren't hard to acquire.

 

[PuckDynasty]

The answer I wanted wasn't there. Fire him and have him leave the organization entirely. Total clean slate.

I want a new GM because I'd love to come here and see the Red Wings made a trade of a current roster player. That the Wings signed a guy WITHOUT character and isn't necessarily good "in the room" A guy that shoots first, second and third. A guy that isn't defensively responsible. I want them to draft a guy who isn't a project. I want them to have an actual offensive defenseman and a PP QB. I want to read that Jonathan Ericsson has been benched, bought out or traded. I want to see they let a bottom six winger go to free agency. I want them to sign a good free agent under 30. I want to feel some excitement when the season starts.

I might win the lottery tonight too.

 

[Bench]

Sitting at 83% of fans wanting Holland to step aside. I'm thinking that's a historically low approval rating for our GM. When I became active on this forum, he would have likely had over 50% approval. Down to 16% in the last 5 years.

 

[SantosHalper]

If we could hire Jason Botterill as GM, then we should "promote" Holland. Nill & Yzerman ain't coming back, and Martin or Draper they doesn't fit as GM.

Fenton has a good record, but he's 56 years old already. If we really want new blood we should hire someone younger, not "Chayka"-young but guy like Botterill. Botterill is also a former Wolverine and started his pro-career in Michigan K-Wings. Former apprentice of Shero and Rutherford.

I am a pro-holland guy, but new arena means new era. So IMO we should have a new GM.

 

[Vyacheslav]

Red wings fans are basically turning Ken Holland into our own "Thanks Obama" meme. I don't see getting rid of Holland as some major change. If the Illitch weren't happy with what Holland is doing they wouldn't let it keep happening. I don't think things would be much different with a different gm. As far as getting rid of him just to get rid of him, with no backup plan, well, I'll take the devil I know, thanks.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't think things would be much different with a different gm..

Yzerman just signed Hedman and Stamkos. If Yzerman was our GM, we would have Hedman and Stamkos.

Thanks Holland.

 

[jkutswings]

Yzerman just signed Hedman and Stamkos. If Yzerman was our GM, we would have Hedman and Stamkos.

Thanks Holland.

Way too many variables to speculate on exactly how this off season would be going, but at this stage of their respective careers, I'd happily have Yzerman instead of Holland.

 

[Bench]

Yzerman just signed Hedman and Stamkos. If Yzerman was our GM, we would have Hedman and Stamkos.

Thanks Holland.

I think it's more the idea that Darren Helm's fiance wouldn't keep coming up in the press quotes as to why he's now a career Red Wing.

 

[Retire91]

Yzerman just signed Hedman and Stamkos. If Yzerman was our GM, we would have Hedmann and Stamkos.

Thanks Holland.

LOL I think the teams that the players are already on tend to have an advantage when signing. That said I am huge supporter of Yzermand to the wings but I don;t think he simply brings Stamkos and Hedmann.

I am glad Hedmann is already signed so we don't have another offseason of unrealistic posts of Holland signing him.

 

[RedWingzz]

Yes, time to move on. Thanks for the Cups Holland, you were a great GM. The key word there is "were". He was a great GM, he isn't anymore. Time to move on Kenny.

 

[Winger98]

I think it's more the idea that Darren Helm's fiance wouldn't keep coming up in the press quotes as to why he's now a career Red Wing.

she makes a mean sweet potato casserole. Kenny couldn't let a resource like that leave the organization.