Player Discussion Shea Weber - [mod warning post #26)]

[SirClintonPortis]

Of course Weber can't drive offense. He needs a distributor for his bombs. Suter, then Josi, then Markov, now a green Mete(?). He also never went over 33 assists in his career and often hit 30 or less even after Nasvhille dumped Trotz's vision and went for a more high-flying offense. His inability to generate assists even with a high-flying offense around him is just proof that he is a gross cut below many other ELITE defensemen offensively. Subban and Markov are just familiar names to us, but I'd take someone like Giordano over Weber any day.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Wrote this in the other thread, seems more pertinent here.

No doubt, the acquisition of Weber came at a supremely curious time.

Weber was always a guy who had certain weaknesses to him. He was always a defense-first player with an OP shot. In order to increase his effectiveness, he needed to have a particular partner. A mobile, puck-carrying/puck distributing, transition-like defenseman as his partner.

His acquisition wasn't the problem (although he should've gotten more value). The problem was the non re-signing of Markov followed by the trade of Sergachev.

The trades and non-resigning themselves weren't bad decisions or bad value trades in a vacuum, but they show a clear lack of foresight into the assembling of the defense.

Bergevin essentially took away all of the options that Weber requires to make the top pairing as efficient as it can be.

Now he needs to find a puck-moving LHD to correct it. And those aren't easy to find, nor are they cheap. But I have very little doubt Bergevin is not going to try to address that.

 

[FEFAN]

Shea is too old to play 26+ minutes and not a top pairing D anymore.His skills are in serious decline, he doesn't hit, mostly just a forearm shove when guys are off balance that makes for great tv but amounts to little more than a love tap. His shot lacks accuracy. He is a dinosaur of the nhl of 15 years ago, sad but true.

 

[Roke]

Shea is too old to play 26+ minutes and not a top pairing D anymore.His skills are in serious decline, he doesn't hit, mostly just a forearm shove when guys are off balance that makes for great tv but amounts to little more than a love tap. His shot lacks accuracy. He is a dinosaur of the nhl of 15 years ago, sad but true.

I disagree with Weber not being a top-pairing guy because I don't think there are 62 other defencemen in the league clearly better at him.

I think he's still a #1 (i.e. in the top-31 defensemen in the league). He's a lot like in-his-prime Tomas Plekanec in my books - a good #1 guy at his position but not among the elite (whether that's top-5 or top-10) at his position.

 

[Wats]

I disagree with Weber not being a top-pairing guy because I don't think there are 62 other defencemen in the league clearly better at him.

I think he's still a #1 (i.e. in the top-31 defensemen in the league). He's a lot like in-his-prime Tomas Plekanec in my books - a good #1 guy at his position but not among the elite (whether that's top-5 or top-10) at his position.

Now I'm of the opinion Weber is a lower end #1 D but I disagree with the logic that there are 31 #1 D in the NHL.

IMO it should be the quality of play that determines status. I don't think there are more than 15-20 in the NHL. The player should be at least good enough to be #1 D on multiple teams to deserve being called a #1 D. Pigeonholed players shouldn't count.

 

[ahmedou]

In the world of sport, someone who isn't concerned about the colors he wears. For me very hard to find a way to make him happy while playing with his team. In the same way, by offering him all the fortune of the world it'll not change anything

 

[Roke]

Now I'm of the opinion Weber is a lower end #1 D but I disagree with the logic that there are 31 #1 D in the NHL.

IMO it should be the quality of play that determines status. I don't think there are more than 15-20 in the NHL. The player should be at least good enough to be #1 D on multiple teams to deserve being called a #1 D. Pigeonholed players shouldn't count.

Maybe I'm too influenced by baseball (where the numbers are conveniently more accurate), but I think the gap between the best guy at a position in a league and the 10th, or maybe even the 5th-best guy at a position is greater than the gap between #15 and #31.

Just looking to baseball for an example because their numbers are more accurate than hockey. For the Wins Above Replacement* starting pitching leaders in baseball this year there's a 2 WAR gap between #1 Chris Sale and # 5 Stephen Strasburg while the gap between #15 and #30 was only 1 WAR.

 

[Deebs]

Shea is too old to play 26+ minutes and not a top pairing D anymore.His skills are in serious decline, he doesn't hit, mostly just a forearm shove when guys are off balance that makes for great tv but amounts to little more than a love tap. His shot lacks accuracy. He is a dinosaur of the nhl of 15 years ago, sad but true.

lol...love it

 

[Captain Mountain]

Maybe I'm too influenced by baseball (where the numbers are conveniently more accurate), but I think the gap between the best guy at a position in a league and the 10th, or maybe even the 5th-best guy at a position is greater than the gap between #15 and #31.

I think genuine, elite talent in hockey is both underpaid (McDavid's worth more than the max) and undervalued by those of us watching in general. But I see sporting talent as a pyramid, the lower you go the wider the spread of guys at that level.

Just looking to baseball for an example because their numbers are more accurate than hockey. For the Wins Above Replacement* starting pitching leaders in baseball this year there's a 2 WAR gap between #1 Chris Sale and # 5 Stephen Strasburg while the gap between #15 and #30 was only 1 WAR.

Honestly? The only reason numbers are more accurate in Baseball is because they track stuff better there and its easier to track stuff in MLB.

We are getting pretty close to an effective all in one stat for the NHL.

https://theleafsnation.com/2017/10/...war-model-part-5-data-release-final-thoughts/

Still plenty of flaws (like accounting for total team talent level and missing data that the NHL doesn't track), but its significantly more comprehensive than stats like corsi.

Weber is still solidly a number #1 D-man. But he needs help moving the puck and from other D-men.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It was a terrible trade that was all smoke and mirrors for greater problems within the organization (if that wasn't evident after MT was canned, isn't it evident now???) and it looks like an absolute joke now. The only reason the euphoria around this trade has died down is because of that thing that cures all ails... time. People have learned to accept it and move on.

But really, with each passing game since about game 60 of last season this trade has turned into a clear fail. When the trade was made we all heard that we would have to wait and see and we couldn't pass judgment right away. Well, PK went to the SC finals and had a great showing in the playoffs as expected, meanwhile the Habs lost in underwhelming fashion to an average NYR team and the team looks like a complete dumpster fire right now.

Where has Weber's supposed God-like leadership skills led us so far?

Our supposed biggest issue after the 2015-2016 season was that the locker room was rotten to the core and that's why they couldn't surmount a Price injury. How is that working out right now, with a healthy Price??

We even heard that, even though PK was the only one that performed in that cluster**** of a season, he was such a distraction that he absolutely needed to get dealt for the greater good!!

There is too much wrong with this trade, and every time I think about it and see that the clown in purple pants is still employed it infuriates me like nothing else. Luckily I have developed other hobbies over the past year so my mind is not even close to being on this team as much as it once was.

Weber is solid, PK made me want to tune in and watch games. Solid does not make up for what was given up, not even close.

I have not accepted it and never will. Many here are like me. We haven't moved on. We had two cornerstones out of 3 in building a contender. It's gonna be years until we can get another one. Although Mete looks good, I don't think his impact will be as high.

The only way I'll start to forgive is either an overhaul where he gets us elite players who will entertain us as much, or Subban comes back.. somehow.

 

[ChikN]

My only problem with him right now is he doesn't seem to have another *gear* when we're in a losing position during a game. He doesn't change his play style at all, not trying to go for big hits to wake up his teammates, he's not vocal on the ice and just pretty much continues to play *his* game. In the end he does need to provide a little bit more than just steady play, he's our #1 and is paid accordingly.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Flashback to 2015-2016, the team couldn't score.. our goalies couldn't make a save and Subban played great but we still sucked. Currently, we can't score, our goalies can't make a save and Weber has played well and we suck.

My point is, both guys are great defenceman and no matter how good they are playing it doesn't matter when your team can't score, the rest of your D are struggling and your goalies have save % of .879.

Weber hasn't been great, but he hasn't been bad either. I get people miss their favourite PK Subban but the team would still suck right now if we had Subban instead of Weber, even replace Weber with Karlsson and we still have a ton of issues.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Flashback to 2015-2016, the team couldn't score.. our goalies couldn't make a save and Subban played great but we still sucked. Currently, we can't score, our goalies can't make a save and Weber has played well and we suck.

My point is, both guys are great defenceman and no matter how good they are playing it doesn't matter when your team can't score, the rest of your D are struggling and your goalies have save % of .879.

Weber hasn't been great, but he hasn't been bad either. I get people miss their favourite PK Subban but the team would still suck right now if we had Subban instead of Weber, even replace Weber with Karlsson and we still have a ton of issues.

Price never sucked like this with Subban here. You're actually comparing and equating Subban with Condon/Scrivens sucking to Weber with Price sucking.

Actually, Price did stink like he does now, it was in 12-13 but the team still won, because of Subban.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Price never sucked like this with Subban here. You're actually comparing and equating Subban with Condon/Scrivens sucking to Weber with Price sucking.

Actually, Price did stink like he does now, it was in 12-13 but the team still won, because of Subban.

Actually we did well in 2012-2013 it was because we had three lines that could score and finished 5th in goals for, not just "because of Subban". But I guess we can just give Subban the credit when the team does well and disregard him when our team finished 3rd last the year before that.

Not going to bother getting into any more of a Subban vs. Weber disagreement, my point was when your team can't score or your goalies put up a save % under .900 it isn't on just one player. It wasn't Subban's fault we sucked in 2012/2013 nor was it his fault in 2015/2016, it also isn't Weber's fault why our team has been a disaster this year and he's been one of our only 2 decent D so far.

 

[BlackStar]

On Sportsnet last night, they had a graphic comparing our top players' disastrous first seven games to last year's.

Interestingly, Weber wasn't featured amongst the list of 6-8 players. Which got me thinking: are these anti-intellectuals finally admitting that Weber just isn't that good? Probably not. They lack the critical thinking and humility to come around to the truth.

Which led to a more interesting thought: why is the media not even mentioning Weber's poor play so far this season?

If Subban was still a Hab and had only 2 points and a -3 in 7 games during this pathetic start, would the media protect him the way they are protecting Weber? Every single one of our supposedly "top" players, including even Price is being criticized by the media for their awful play, except for good ol' Weber. Why?

Wasn't he supposed to make this team infinitely better defensively? Wasn't he supposed to make this team tougher to play against? Wasn't he supposed to make Price's job easier? Wasn't he supposed to make Pacioretty a better leader? Wasn't he supposed to improve our power-play? Wasn't he supposed to make this team a Stanley Cup contender?

Instead, this team is now a lottery contender. And nobody in the media seems willing to call out Weber and that awful trade as the catalyst for much of our problems today.

The sad thing is, I don't even blame Weber too much. I genuinely do not expect much more from him. He's just not that good. He's too dependant on others to produce goals. He needs great playmakers to give him great one-timers to score goals. He needs great skating defensive partners to cover his less than impressive skating ability.

I blame the hockey media's anti-intellectual take on what makes defencemen good. I blame their idiotic preference over "intangibles" and "character" over talent and skill. I blame our idiotic GM for not asking himself why Weber's GM was so willing to trade his captain for a player with "character" issues.

 

[Price is Wright]

It was a thing last year to track Weber and Subban even though Subban wasn't 100% and often injured.

Now both are healthy and it's not even close.

 

[OldCraig71]

I was very disappointed when we failed to sign the general, I wish some interviewer would ask Weber if he feels that the loss of Markov has impacted this years team?

 

[Charon]

Now I'm of the opinion Weber is a lower end #1 D but I disagree with the logic that there are 31 #1 D in the NHL.

IMO it should be the quality of play that determines status. I don't think there are more than 15-20 in the NHL. The player should be at least good enough to be #1 D on multiple teams to deserve being called a #1 D. Pigeonholed players shouldn't count.

I personally like to think of there being 31 #1 defencemen in the league, with that group being comprised of the best 31 defencemen in the league. It seems to me that it's better to define the group by the comparative or relative skill level and quality of play of the collection of the players in the league rather than other absolute measures/qualities of play/performance indicators. I think that the absolute measure approach is flawed, because let's say that scoring is down one year, and there are more goalies with .920% save percentage and fewer 20-goal scorers in the NHL, then we might say that there are more elite goalies and fewer top-six forwards in the league, which doesn't really make sense because it's relative comparison we're looking for (after all, the teams are competing against each other).

In this group of 31, there are "top-level" #1 d-men at the top, "serviceable" #1 d-men in the middle, and then "bottom tier" #1 d-men in the bottom. What would make a player a #1 d-men is that they are on-the-whole considered to be better than any defencemen outside of that group (i.e., ranked 32nd or less, out of all defencemen). It would follow then that if a player can be a #1 D on most teams in the league (i.e., Doughty, Karlsson, Hedman), then he'd be a "top-level" #1 d-man.

The #2 through #6 positions on defence (and other positions) could be thought of the same way.

This being said, under this definition a "bottom-tier" #1 defencemen is closer in skill to a "top-level" #2 than he would be to a "top-level" #1. Furthermore, different people would have different lists as people will judge and measure skill in different ways, so that would cause some variation in opinion still, on whether a player is a #1 or a #2.

 

[ahmedou]

I'm still waiting for the “mea-culpa” of this “pseudo media” (exceptionally those of our city) about this trade. There's a high possibility that I'll wait a long time

 

[BadHabit]

Weber will never be able to take control of a game like our last #1 D was able to. When I even notice that Weber is on the ice, I don't feel that he could do something to open up the game at any time... except for maybe on the power play. Most of the time he's not even noticeable on the ice - and while that's good for a defensive d man, it's not good for a supposed elite #1.

The Habs never needed him to begin with, but he's here to stay now.

 

[Pat Riot]

No he isn't

Of course he is

 

[McGuires Corndog]

On Sportsnet last night, they had a graphic comparing our top players' disastrous first seven games to last year's.

Interestingly, Weber wasn't featured amongst the list of 6-8 players. Which got me thinking: are these anti-intellectuals finally admitting that Weber just isn't that good? Probably not. They lack the critical thinking and humility to come around to the truth.

Which led to a more interesting thought: why is the media not even mentioning Weber's poor play so far this season?

If Subban was still a Hab and had only 2 points and a -3 in 7 games during this pathetic start, would the media protect him the way they are protecting Weber? Every single one of our supposedly "top" players, including even Price is being criticized by the media for their awful play, except for good ol' Weber. Why?

Wasn't he supposed to make this team infinitely better defensively? Wasn't he supposed to make this team tougher to play against? Wasn't he supposed to make Price's job easier? Wasn't he supposed to make Pacioretty a better leader? Wasn't he supposed to improve our power-play? Wasn't he supposed to make this team a Stanley Cup contender?

Instead, this team is now a lottery contender. And nobody in the media seems willing to call out Weber and that awful trade as the catalyst for much of our problems today.

The sad thing is, I don't even blame Weber too much. I genuinely do not expect much more from him. He's just not that good. He's too dependant on others to produce goals. He needs great playmakers to give him great one-timers to score goals. He needs great skating defensive partners to cover his less than impressive skating ability.

I blame the hockey media's anti-intellectual take on what makes defencemen good. I blame their idiotic preference over "intangibles" and "character" over talent and skill. I blame our idiotic GM for not asking himself why Weber's GM was so willing to trade his captain for a player with "character" issues.

Such a great post and so on point it's not even funny!

I'd bet every penny I've earned so far in my life and every penny I'll ever earn from today going forward that had it been Subban with that statline after 8 games he'd be media scapegoat #1.

 

[SquiddFX]

Wanting Weber to elevate his play is odd. He's the most consistent players in the league. He plays at one level and doesn't deviate. That's like asking a zebra to change it's stripes

 

[Pat Riot]

On Sportsnet last night, they had a graphic comparing our top players' disastrous first seven games to last year's.

Interestingly, Weber wasn't featured amongst the list of 6-8 players. Which got me thinking: are these anti-intellectuals finally admitting that Weber just isn't that good? Probably not. They lack the critical thinking and humility to come around to the truth.

Which led to a more interesting thought: why is the media not even mentioning Weber's poor play so far this season?

If Subban was still a Hab and had only 2 points and a -3 in 7 games during this pathetic start, would the media protect him the way they are protecting Weber? Every single one of our supposedly "top" players, including even Price is being criticized by the media for their awful play, except for good ol' Weber. Why?

Wasn't he supposed to make this team infinitely better defensively? Wasn't he supposed to make this team tougher to play against? Wasn't he supposed to make Price's job easier? Wasn't he supposed to make Pacioretty a better leader? Wasn't he supposed to improve our power-play? Wasn't he supposed to make this team a Stanley Cup contender?

Instead, this team is now a lottery contender. And nobody in the media seems willing to call out Weber and that awful trade as the catalyst for much of our problems today.

The sad thing is, I don't even blame Weber too much. I genuinely do not expect much more from him. He's just not that good. He's too dependant on others to produce goals. He needs great playmakers to give him great one-timers to score goals. He needs great skating defensive partners to cover his less than impressive skating ability.

I blame the hockey media's anti-intellectual take on what makes defencemen good. I blame their idiotic preference over "intangibles" and "character" over talent and skill. I blame our idiotic GM for not asking himself why Weber's GM was so willing to trade his captain for a player with "character" issues.

That is a masterpiece of a post. Best post I seen in a long time

 

[McGuires Corndog]

Wanting Weber to elevate his play is odd. He's the most consistent players in the league. He plays at one level and doesn't deviate. That's like asking a zebra to change it's stripes

The issue is the GM thinking this was a fair value trade when one player has another level and the other doesn't.

I mean, wow.

Weber is a great hockey player, and that will never be disputed by me. He's just not good enough to elevate this team.