McKenzie: Shea Theodore to Vegas

[Zegs2sendhelp]

So, Ducks fans, this would jive with my post the other day that this all depends on what Murray considers to be "nothing big" when talking about the ED, right?

Theodore is a big thing for Vegas and is considered to be a big thing by HF; however, he isn't anything big in relation to Anaheim's current D corp or even the future due to their pipeline. Plus they get the sweetener of Stoner's bad paper going away.

I can't read through 17 more pages of this saga, but that sums it up, right? Good for both sides as expected by those that understood the situation. Bad for the Pacific as Vegas gets better and Anaheim maintains while getting cap space to play with.

Yea Theodore is a big piece, but in Anaheim hes a bit over looked because we have so many defensemen under the age of 26.

Even without Theodore/despres/stoner we still have

Lindholm Manson
Fowler Vatanen
Larsson Montour
Mahura Welinski
Pettersson Megna

all under 26, then beiska somewhere near the core of the earth

 

[vavera4ka]

As an Oilers fan, I love this. Theodore looks like a stud and IMO he will be better than Vatanen and Manson down the road. Glad the Ducks have one less top end D coming down the pipe. Of course, Murray will probably just find another one

you are comparing wrong apples to very wrong cows

Will he be better than Fowler? Lindholm? Larsson? Cause to Ducks that's who they compare him to.
Vatanen RIGHT NOW is a better trading chip. Also RIGHT NOW a better D player.
And if you take all of that into account, you have to evaluate Theo as a bottom pairing guy. NO WAY he's better at it than Manson.

both Vatanen and Theo were always groomed to be trading chips.
Theo got Ducks ability to keep core D and shed Stoner's salary.
Vatanen, hopefully, bring in top 6 winger.

Please stop evaluating Ducks D prospects (and NHL level D players) from the point of view of weak D teams.

 

[Sojourn]

But would he have the same opportunity to break out here? Sure he'd have a lot of power play time (but probably still be behind a healthy Vatanen, Montour, and Fowler), limited 5v5 time (and probably playing with Bieksa), and be behind Vatanen, Lindholm, Fowler, and Manson at the very least on the PK. In Vegas he'll have every opportunity to get minutes. I think more than Vegas or Anaheim, this is a good move for Theodore. I hope he succeeds with it.

Probably not, especially if Fowler gets locked up. I think with that door shutting(if the rumors are true), his opportunities were going to be limited.

He's also a big work in progress right now. He needs to get stronger, and he needs to get a lot better at handling pressure with the puck. There is no denying he's a talented kid, but among our better prospects I think he is the guy who hurts the least amount to move. Anaheim is lucky enough to have two other D prospects in Montour and Larsson, as well as a young defenseman in Lindholm, Fowler, Manson, and Vatanen. It's a wealth of riches, and if one of our better prospects was being moved, I'm glad it was Theodore.

The value of this deal for Anaheim is even better if they are getting Vegas to take Stoner. Anaheim gets more cap space. They didn't need to ask Bieksa to waive. They keep Manson and Vatanen(at least for the moment). It's a win for Anaheim. And, of course, Vegas gets a good prospect that they can afford to be patient with in Theodore, which is more than they would have gotten without a deal. It's pretty obviously a win for them too. They need good prospects, and he will be one of their best.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

The mod staff has had to do a little housecleaning in this thread. Please refrain from trolling and flaming others. Note that calling somebody a troll is flaming. If we have to do more cleaning up here, deletions will turn into warnings/infractions and thread bans.

 

[liquiduck]

you are comparing wrong apples to very wrong cows

Will he be better than Fowler? Lindholm? Larsson? Cause to Ducks that's who they compare him to.
Vatanen RIGHT NOW is a better trading chip. Also RIGHT NOW a better D player.
And if you take all of that into account, you have to evaluate Theo as a bottom pairing guy. NO WAY he's better at it than Manson.

both Vatanen and Theo were always groomed to be trading chips.
Theo got Ducks ability to keep core D and shed Stoner's salary.
Vatanen, hopefully, bring in top 6 winger.

Please stop evaluating Ducks D prospects (and NHL level D players) from the point of view of weak D teams.

I think that posters take is fair. I'd love it too if the Oilers lost a top 5 prospect in there system.

The bit about him ever eventually becoming better than Vats or Manson is debatable, but I wouldn't bet against it.

 

[Kariya 9]

Theodore is very comparable to Sandis Ozolinsh. The dude is going to put up a ton of points, I'm sure of it, but he is horrible in his own zone. He is afraid to even TOUCH the opposition. I'd say the height of his potential as a defensive defenseman is average and that's the maximum. But his offense more than makes up for it.

 

[AngelDuck]

Theodore is a very talented prospect but this is not a bad deal for Anaheim. The Ducks got them to take Stoner who has negative value because of a bloated contract. Our defense is still among the top of the league with Lindholm/Fowler/Manson/Vatanen/Montour all under contract for next year

Vegas gets a guy with high upside to start their building process

 

[Sojourn]

As an Oilers fan, I love this. Theodore looks like a stud and IMO he will be better than Vatanen and Manson down the road. Glad the Ducks have one less top end D coming down the pipe.

Makes sense for the Ducks though. Stick with the current guys in their prime to make the best of those last Getz/Perry/Kesler years.

It doesn't matter if he ends up better than Manson. They are very, very different players. Manson is far more valuable to us. The question is if Theodore will be better than Lindholm or Fowler, and the answer is no. Montour is currently better as well, and he fits better on the team.

I'm also not convinced he will be better than Vatanen, but I'm not going to try to convince you. I value Vatanen more, and I'm positive Vatanen is worth more to other GM's if Murray decides to trade him.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

I think that posters take is fair. I'd love it too if the Oilers lost a top 5 prospect in there system.

The bit about him ever becoming better than Vats or Manson is debatable, but I wouldn't bet against it.

I know people hate the comparison but Theodore reminds me of fowler a lot, obviously the big difference being fowler came into the nhl on a weak defense at the age of 18/19 and Theodore had more time to groom and grow... but just his style and build and the way he plays... if he can improve his defensive game(or vegas can find a good partner for him like a josh manson... hell be a really good top 4 dmen soon.

 

[Sojourn]

So, Ducks fans, this would jive with my post the other day that this all depends on what Murray considers to be "nothing big" when talking about the ED, right?

Theodore is a big thing for Vegas and is considered to be a big thing by HF; however, he isn't anything big in relation to Anaheim's current D corp or even the future due to their pipeline. Plus they get the sweetener of Stoner's bad paper going away.

I can't read through 17 more pages of this saga, but that sums it up, right? Good for both sides as expected by those that understood the situation. Bad for the Pacific as Vegas gets better and Anaheim maintains while getting cap space to play with.

Borderline. In the context of how it impacts the team I'd say it's nothing big, because outside of having Stoner taken, it really doesn't impact the team at all. If Theodore was on the team this upcoming season, it would have been in a sheltered 3rd pairing role, with the goal of letting him develop and refine his game. He has a lot of work to do. He's not a fit for us right now, unless there are injuries.

Theodore is a good prospect, and I don't want to just dismiss his loss. This is a good grab for Vegas. I just think with the likes of Montour and Larsson, and Vatanen, Manson, Fowler, and Lindholm it's an equally good move for Anaheim. If Anaheim was going to lose one of their better prospects, Theodore would have been my choice to go. I think his future with the team is in doubt the second Fowler re-signs with Anaheim. Dumping some salary in the same move just further adds to why Anaheim does it.

I think you summarized it nicely. It's bad for the Pacific, because Vegas and Anaheim both benefit from this arrangement. Anaheim stays stronger now, and Vegas picks up a good, young talent who (hopefully) is able to breakout and really get his career in the NHL going. Even if it's on a division rival, I do wish Theodore the best. He's a good kid, and he deserves a shot. That would have been tough to get in Anaheim.

 

[Sacha Baron Corbin]

Makes sense for both sides. Theodore can become Vegas' best defenseman eventually and the Ducks have the depth to replace him

 

[Professor John Frink]

I know people hate the comparison but Theodore reminds me of fowler a lot, obviously the big difference being fowler came into the nhl on a weak defense at the age of 18/19 and Theodore had more time to groom and grow... but just his style and build and the way he plays... if he can improve his defensive game(or vegas can find a good partner for him like a josh manson... hell be a really good top 4 dmen soon.

Agreed. Just like Fowler he just has to shore up his play in the defensive zone/his toughness. But these are all issues Cam Fowler had when he entered the league at 18.

Theo just has to get some consistent time in the NHL, face those things head on. He will adapt and end up being a very good player. For Vegas or Anaheim or someone else.

 

[Mallard]

It's a win-win all around:

Anaheim: Shed stoner salary, maintain trade chip in Vatanen, and keep Manson. More cap space to resign Fowler and maybe sign Eaves/another UFA forward.

LVGK: Acquire a stud D prospect and only have Stoner's salary on the books for one year.

Theodore: Potential for more playing time in LV than he would in Anaheim.

 

[pbgoalie]

Going in to this draft, with an embarrassment of riches at D, we were looking at cap issues,
and having to find a way to protect (or effectively move) Manson or Vats

IF the report is correct, we lose a very nice prospect in Shea Theodore, while opening up some cap space with the Despres and Stoner moves.

Shea was looking good, but looked like he would be lost in the depth chart a bit,
and I'm not anti Stoner, but that's a nice chunk for the signing of Fowler etc.

The comedy and delusion of MB thread now turns to, we told you you would lose something, pivoting away from "no way you have Vats and Manson.

In the real world, it looks like a rare good deal for both teams, and both players, who will see consistent playing time.

Gotta give GMBM some props.

I dont think we trade Vats now, unless it is a ridiculous deal. Let him get healthy, and hope we survive the early season issues with Hampus, Sami, and Kellers surgeries. Of course early on, if we struggle, the Boards will glamour about how the ED killed us like they said

 

[BigKing]

Thanks for the feedback, Duckies.

The idea that they would lose Vats or Manson to the ED was idiotic and wishful thinking from non Ducks fans. The idea that the Ducks could just flip a 2nd round pick or only get Kerdiles was a whole bunch of wishful thinking based upon Murray's comments.

Just have to wonder if they trade Vats or just run it back again.

 

[nbducksfan19]

People keep forgetting that Vatanen had less points at even strength than Roman Polak.

Malkin puts up first line numbers playing second line. Big difference

We get it, he was injured and had a bad year. What about other years or, ya know, watch the guy. [MOD]

 

[nbducksfan19]

So, Ducks fans, this would jive with my post the other day that this all depends on what Murray considers to be "nothing big" when talking about the ED, right?

Theodore is a big thing for Vegas and is considered to be a big thing by HF; however, he isn't anything big in relation to Anaheim's current D corp or even the future due to their pipeline. Plus they get the sweetener of Stoner's bad paper going away.

I can't read through 17 more pages of this saga, but that sums it up, right? Good for both sides as expected by those that understood the situation. Bad for the Pacific as Vegas gets better and Anaheim maintains while getting cap space to play with.

Very true. I also think the value of dumping Stoner and being able to keep a prospect like kerdiles (or other prospect that vegas would have been picked instead of stoner) alters what the return was to vegas.

 

[TMLife*]

We get it, he was injured and had a bad year. What about other years or, ya know, watch the guy. [MOD]

You can’t say he was injured and had a bad year, then follow it up with watch the guy. LOL

 

[CHaracter79]

As an outsider, what do duck fans value or project the max potential for each D man.

Theodore and Manson

type of d and best comparable to actual D man.. potential wise.

for example.. if someone says... theodore could become the next (blank) doesnt mean he will or is close to... just curious as to the projections these two D men have

thanks for your time

 

[nbducksfan19]

Thanks for the feedback, Duckies.

The idea that they would lose Vats or Manson to the ED was idiotic and wishful thinking from non Ducks fans. The idea that the Ducks could just flip a 2nd round pick or only get Kerdiles was a whole bunch of wishful thinking based upon Murray's comments.

Just have to wonder if they trade Vats or just run it back again.

I think most ducks fans were expecting the best case scenario to be something like a B prospect (kerdiles, welinski, petterson) and a 2nd round pick. Instead it is a A Propsect (Theodore) +Cap dump (stoner) + a B prospect (we get to keep Kerdiles, welinski ect). Seems the values are very close to what we expected.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Thanks for the feedback, Duckies.

The idea that they would lose Vats or Manson to the ED was idiotic and wishful thinking from non Ducks fans. The idea that the Ducks could just flip a 2nd round pick or only get Kerdiles was a whole bunch of wishful thinking based upon Murray's comments.

Just have to wonder if they trade Vats or just run it back again.

I still think Vatanen is on the table. Losing Theodore hurts but the trade market is going to be a lot bigger for Vatanen now that protection slots aren't a concern for teams and with some teams losing a good defenseman, there will be more teams looking to add a top 4 defenseman back in. Trading him before the ED would have netted a low return. But if we could get a good young top 6 forward back, then I don't necessarily mind losing Theo.

 

[nbducksfan19]

You can’t say he was injured and had a bad year, then follow it up with watch the guy. LOL

Um...why? Its not like he didn't play - he was still very effective defensively he just had a pretty significant shoulder injury which affects offense. Also, you know the guy has been in the league longer than this year...(or maybe you don.t know?).

 

[Sojourn]

You can’t say he was injured and had a bad year, then follow it up with watch the guy. LOL

Yes, you can. This wasn't his first year in the NHL. He's a player with over 250 games of NHL experience.

 

[nbducksfan19]

As an outsider, what do duck fans value or project the max potential for each D man.

Theodore and Manson

type of d and best comparable to actual D man.. potential wise.

for example.. if someone says... theodore could become the next (blank) doesnt mean he will or is close to... just curious as to the projections these two D men have

thanks for your time

In Theodore see Ozlolinsh and kimo Timmonen and Brian Campbell ...but also a lot of cody franson

Manson is a lot like Kronwall and maybe Phaneuf? with a bit less offensive probably.

 

[liquiduck]

As an outsider, what do duck fans value or project the max potential for each D man.

Theodore and Manson

type of d and best comparable to actual D man.. potential wise.

for example.. if someone says... theodore could become the next (blank) doesnt mean he will or is close to... just curious as to the projections these two D men have

thanks for your time

For Theodore:

Max potential, hard to say. I'd say absolute max potential for Theodore is a fowler type with more offense, but probably a weaker defensive game.

I'd say Theo most likely ends up being a 2nd paring guy who puts up 35-40 pts a season consistently. Maybe more.