Shanahan's biggest gaffe shows he's out of touch: revisiting the "Discounts" quote

[usernamezrhardtodo]

You missed the joke.

I did...but you have to admit that Button does have the BEST likeness of Fusili for hair though...

 

[Zero1]

Dubas has given them everything they want from.their pay to wearing a letter, staying together in certain situations (16 34)to,lax dress code and propping them up and defending at every opportunity. Until this last playoff series they didn't even play hard for him.
Loyalty gone way overboard

This is what gets me. Dubas has given these guys everything and he has always taken the blame from the players and put it on himself.

These guys repaid that loyalty by taking him to the cleaners on their contract negotiations and disappearing in the playoffs.

I would never expect a player to take a discount but I don’t think expecting them to sign a fair contract is unreasonable.

At the time of their signing, none of Matthews/Marner/Nylander signed fair contracts in my opinion.

I think people sometimes forget Nylander’s actual contract is 6-years $45 mill or $7.5 mill AAV.

 

[Al14]

This is what gets me. Dubas has given these guys everything and he has always taken the blame from the players and put it on himself.

These guys repaid that loyalty by taking him to the cleaners on their contract negotiations and disappearing in the playoffs.

I would never expect a player to take a discount but I don’t think expecting them to sign a fair contract is unreasonable.

At the time of their signing, none of Matthews/Marner/Nylander signed fair contracts in my opinion.

I think people sometimes forget Nylander’s actual contract is 6-years $45 mill or $7.5 mill AAV.

Exactly right IMHO !!! They were all signed to over payments having not proven anything. They STILL have NOT won a SINGLE playoff round !!! Highway robbery by them and their agents.

If the four of them don't CARRY the LOAD, there's just not enough cap room to add players to help !!! Greedy f***ers !!!

 

[saffronleaf]

Exactly right IMHO !!! They were all signed to over payments having not proven anything. They STILL have NOT won a SINGLE playoff round !!! Highway robbery by them and their agents.

If the four of them don't CARRY the LOAD, there's just not enough cap room to add players to help !!! Greedy f***ers !!!

If there's any lessons to take away from this iteration of the Leafs, it's the consequences of extreme greed and the acquiescence to such greed.

 

[therealkoho]

Geepers I'd forgotten the number of stimulating exchanges in this scintillating discussion, so happy it's been revived

Avs taking it to the Oil

 

[Stamkos4life]

How does shanny get to keep his $2.5 mil job?

He was hired in 2014. Yet we still have zero playoff wins.

Imagine failing at your job every year and still not being fired.

There appears to be zero accountability with this team.

Both dubas and Shanny should have been shown the door after the jackets series. The fact they are both still here after two more first round loses is insane.

 

[Legion34]

Again.

Nylander signed for 8% of the cap. There were multiple comparables that picked that exact contract. It was fine but too late should not have waited to December.

Matthews took 14% x 5 years. There were multiple contracts of players who scored like Matthews that were in the 14-17%. On 5 year deals. 14% was fair. There was
1 tax free outlier (stamkos 12%) but many nash/kovy etc that took more. Crosby got higher but he was better.

His contract was fine at the time. He has lived up to it easily. Especially with the 15x7 sheet rumours from friedman

Marner was kinda fairly paid in production. 13% for a top 10 scorer is fair. But he was about 1.5 overpaid compared to his cohort.

Toronto has about 1.5 million overpayments on 3 contracts.

Not the end of the world.
the comparables and research has been done.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

View attachment 448491

Damn, it has been a year and nobody told Shanny? Are they just too scared to bring it up? Just send a text, bro.

 

[keonsbitterness]

How does shanny get to keep his $2.5 mil job?

He was hired in 2014. Yet we still have zero playoff wins.

Imagine failing at your job every year and still not being fired.

There appears to be zero accountability with this team.

Both dubas and Shanny should have been shown the door after the jackets series. The fact they are both still here after two more first round loses is insane.

How many GMs get fired after two years on the job?

 

[Nylanderthal]

This is what gets me. Dubas has given these guys everything and he has always taken the blame from the players and put it on himself.

These guys repaid that loyalty by taking him to the cleaners on their contract negotiations and disappearing in the playoffs.

I would never expect a player to take a discount but I don’t think expecting them to sign a fair contract is unreasonable.

At the time of their signing, none of Matthews/Marner/Nylander signed fair contracts in my opinion.

I think people sometimes forget Nylander’s actual contract is 6-years $45 mill or $7.5 mill AAV.

It’s only 6.9 on the cap because he signed mid season, that 18/19 year he counted for over $10m. Does that really matter? It’s $6.9

 

[nuck]

Again.

Nylander signed for 8% of the cap. There were multiple comparables that picked that exact contract. It was fine but too late should not have waited to December.

Matthews took 14% x 5 years. There were multiple contracts of players who scored like Matthews that were in the 14-17%. On 5 year deals. 14% was fair. There was
1 tax free outlier (stamkos 12%) but many nash/kovy etc that took more. Crosby got higher but he was better.

His contract was fine at the time. He has lived up to it easily. Especially with the 15x7 sheet rumours from friedman

Marner was kinda fairly paid in production. 13% for a top 10 scorer is fair. But he was about 1.5 overpaid compared to his cohort.

Toronto has about 1.5 million overpayments on 3 contracts.

Not the end of the world.
the comparables and research has been done.

But who were Nylander's comparables when he signed? I use Pasta, Forsberg and Ehlers.

He took 1/3 of the first season off and got a $41.77M deal which is $7.37M per year rather than the cap hit. His highest paid comp looks to me like Pastrnak who's deal would be $7.065M if you adjust for the 1 year cap increase. Pasta was coming off a 34g 70pt in 75 game season and Willie 20g 61pt in 82 games so these are not equal performances. Ehlers signed for $6M and his years were much closer to Willie's. Forsberg signed 2 years earlier so you need to adjust his deal for 2 cap increase putting him at $6.48M. WN looks to have been overpaid by about $800k per year.

I won't get into the other 2 deals but all I heard was Willie wanted Draisaitl money which is a massive joke. He should have been dealt once it was clear he was going to miss his first game. Shanny should have at least stood that far behind his discounts remarks.

 

[Nylanderthal]

How many GMs get fired after two years on the job?

It’s a pretty big move to shit can a management team after 3-4 seasons. Coach? Absolutely that’s in the timeline (and I stated as such during the first round and during the season that I’d have keefes evaluation on the table) but to turn over management and thus philosophy so quickly tends to be a reactionary move made by hot head organizations and only leads to more treadmilling and issues

 

[Legion34]

But who were Nylander's comparables when he signed? I use Pasta, Forsberg and Ehlers.

He took 1/3 of the first season off and got a $41.77M deal which is $7.37M per year rather than the cap hit. His highest paid comp looks to me like Pastrnak who's deal would be $7.065M if you adjust for the 1 year cap increase. Pasta was coming off a 34g 70pt in 75 game season and Willie 20g 61pt in 82 games so these are not equal performances. Ehlers signed for $6M and his years were much closer to Willie's. Forsberg signed 2 years earlier so you need to adjust his deal for 2 cap increase putting him at $6.48M. WN looks to have been overpaid by about $800k per year.

I won't get into the other 2 deals but all I heard was Willie wanted Draisaitl money which is a massive joke. He should have been dealt once it was clear he was going to miss his first game. Shanny should have at least stood that far behind his discounts remarks.

There were a ton. When you look at his goals points. Points per game he was right in the middle of an 8-9.25% x6.



There were plenty of articles that walk you through. His contract was what was predicted.

You don’t just go on platform years. Thats how you get cheecho.

 

[nuck]

There were a ton. When you look at his goals points. Points per game he was right in the middle of an 8-9.25% x6.



There were plenty of articles that walk you through. His contract was what was predicted.

You don’t just go on platform years. Thats how you get cheecho.

I get that but which RFAs are you referring to? Ehlers and Forsberg were pretty much exact matches in ppg.

 

[Legion34]

I get that but which RFAs are you referring to? Ehlers and Forsberg were pretty much exact matches in ppg.

I think gaudreau (who scored more and got more) if you look back if you are thar interested there were like weekly articles where reporters broke down the comparables by

Games. Goals. Points. Per game totals and cap %

Willy came in exactly where was expected. It was “what took you so long” rather than an overpay. There are multiple articles still kicking around I’m sure

 

[Dreakmur]

It’s only 6.9 on the cap because he signed mid season, that 18/19 year he counted for over $10m. Does that really matter? It’s $6.9

If people are claiming that Nylander folded and just agreed to what Dubas offered, that means he was offered 7.5.

 

[stealth1]

Again.

Nylander signed for 8% of the cap. There were multiple comparables that picked that exact contract. It was fine but too late should not have waited to December.

Matthews took 14% x 5 years. There were multiple contracts of players who scored like Matthews that were in the 14-17%. On 5 year deals. 14% was fair. There was
1 tax free outlier (stamkos 12%) but many nash/kovy etc that took more. Crosby got higher but he was better.

His contract was fine at the time. He has lived up to it easily. Especially with the 15x7 sheet rumours from friedman

Marner was kinda fairly paid in production. 13% for a top 10 scorer is fair. But he was about 1.5 overpaid compared to his cohort.

Toronto has about 1.5 million overpayments on 3 contracts.

Not the end of the world.
the comparables and research has been done.

The problem is it's 4 forwards taking up the cap space when you include Tavares. You aren't winning anything in this league with a team built like that.

 

[nuck]

If people are claiming that Nylander folded and just agreed to what Dubas offered, that means he was offered 7.5.

It wasnt a fold thing IMO. KD could have been a rock at whatever his starting number was and it still comes down to the 11th hour and whether either is willing to flush the season which helps nobody by that time. He wasn't weak as much as too optimistic. The net was $7.3ish which is a win for team Nylander and not that bad of a loss for the Leafs. Its only when you consider how the next 2 deals would have gone without the Nylander soap opera that things start looking worse. There is a whole house of cards attached here and it seems lazy to reduce it to the finl number agreed to with no context.

 

[Stamkos4life]

How many GMs get fired after two years on the job?

Probably not too many.

But there also aren't that many gms who inherit as promising a team as dubas and yet have zero results.

Also, we have the benefit of hindsight. Since that jackets series, we have two more first round loses. Are you saying it would've been wrong to fire dubas back in 2020 considering we already know how the next two years went?

 

[Stamkos4life]

But who were Nylander's comparables when he signed? I use Pasta, Forsberg and Ehlers.

He took 1/3 of the first season off and got a $41.77M deal which is $7.37M per year rather than the cap hit. His highest paid comp looks to me like Pastrnak who's deal would be $7.065M if you adjust for the 1 year cap increase. Pasta was coming off a 34g 70pt in 75 game season and Willie 20g 61pt in 82 games so these are not equal performances. Ehlers signed for $6M and his years were much closer to Willie's. Forsberg signed 2 years earlier so you need to adjust his deal for 2 cap increase putting him at $6.48M. WN looks to have been overpaid by about $800k per year.

I won't get into the other 2 deals but all I heard was Willie wanted Draisaitl money which is a massive joke. He should have been dealt once it was clear he was going to miss his first game. Shanny should have at least stood that far behind his discounts remarks.

Using nylander's three closest comparables, he is over paid.

Especially when you take into account his comparables didn't get as much in signing bonuses or front loaded.

Also, dubas gave Nylander 6.9 for the first year even though he sat out on the team for ~2 months.

Anyone who says otherwise is just flat out biased.

 

[Shanwhatplan]

2 mill on Marner... At best.

The rest are getting fair market. Some may even be providing surplus value at this point (Matthews + Nylander).

Not when you consider Matthews only signed for 5 years.

 

[Shanwhatplan]

It’s a pretty big move to shit can a management team after 3-4 seasons. Coach? Absolutely that’s in the timeline (and I stated as such during the first round and during the season that I’d have keefes evaluation on the table) but to turn over management and thus philosophy so quickly tends to be a reactionary move made by hot head organizations and only leads to more treadmilling and issues

I’m glad you mentioned treadmilling, because that’s exactly what this team has been doing when it comes to playoffs. I could care less about the regular season, it means jackshit when it comes to the playoffs.
With the way Dubas has constructed the team (ie paying 2 wingers and 2 centers half the cap), they will never have the necessary cap room to build a team that can go deep in the playoffs. You either need a #1 goalie, or a solid 1a-1b tandem. Campbell is the 1a, but Peter I’ve-reinjured-my-groin Mrazek is not a 1b. Will there be enough cap room to resign Campbell to a reasonable contract?
One other thing that I find perplexing is: you’re paying 4 forwards half the cap, yet you still need to find two wingers who can play with them while only being able to spend around $1 million on each. And there are still holes to fill on the other 2 lines. Dubas has built an imbalanced team and will go down with the ship rather than admit he made a mistake and try to correct it (ie I’m smarter than everyone else).
And another thing, how in Hell has Shanahan been able to keep his job? To me, he always has the look of a deer caught in the headlights. Get someone in there who has the balls to do whatever it takes to build a team that has 3 solid lines and a 4th line that can hold their own!

 

[justashadowof]

There are ways to win a Stanley Cup with 4 forwards making half the cap, a slew of $1M forwards, patchwork goaltending and a defense acquired through trade/free agency. But it involves an assembly line of young forwards on ELCs lifting heavy loads early in their careers. That hasn't happened.

 

[Dreakmur]

There are ways to win a Stanley Cup with 4 forwards making half the cap, a slew of $1M forwards, patchwork goaltending and a defense acquired through trade/free agency. But it involves an assembly line of young forwards on ELCs lifting heavy loads early in their careers. That hasn't happened.

No team construction makes it impossible to win, but the salary cap certainly makes many of them much more difficult. The salary cap pushes teams towards a more balanced approach, simply due to diminishing returns of stacking positions.

 

[Stephen]

There are ways to win a Stanley Cup with 4 forwards making half the cap, a slew of $1M forwards, patchwork goaltending and a defense acquired through trade/free agency. But it involves an assembly line of young forwards on ELCs lifting heavy loads early in their careers. That hasn't happened.

Also calls into question what a supporting Kid Line on a cup contender should look like. I think Knies fits the description, but some of the other prospects will need to prove themselves in terms of playing a playoff brand game.