Pre-Game Talk: SENS in Detroit, Wed, Jan 3, 7:30 pm on SportsNet

[HSF]

That's fair. There are certainly stupid, irrational reasons for wanting to see Karlsson traded. I also think that there are increasingly (until he signs an extension anyway) pragmatic and rational reasons for starting to talk about maybe moving him.

We won't know if he will sign a extension till july 1. Till then lets discuss trading him and make him feel unwanted! Ya go Ottawa!

People expect loyalty out of players and get angry when they don't show loyalty back.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

We won't know if he will sign a extension till july 1. Till then lets discuss trading him and make him feel unwanted! Ya go Ottawa!

People expect loyalty out of players and get angry when they don't show loyalty back.

So, as far as I know, the NHL rules do not allow teams to talk or negotiate with players, becoming an UFA, until the July 1st previous to their last contractual season.


So the question you have to ask yourself, if you were in Dorions' shoes, do you explore ALL options, which would include a possibility of his trade value leading up to that July 1st ................. or be wary of making him feel "unwanted" fearing trade talk would be a trigger warning to him, and have him retreat into hi safe space.... and then get blindsided, caught flatfooted with his contract demands after July 1st, and then finding yourself have to trade him from a position of weakness, and he being not at worth as much then, as he is today?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Being in a wheelchair limits my activities . I apologize if this bothers you

Sorry guys I am an A-hole .. this isn't true..

 

[Alex1234]

The Senators management decided he was more valuable to the Senators than Methot, and that's why they protected him in the Draft.

The Coaching staff thinks he fills the shutdown (pairing) role, and that's why he had the second most TOI last season (Mehtot was fourth) and is second in TOI so far this season.


Would the management team protect a "garbage" player, in the draft?
Would the Coaching staff play a "garbage" d man the second most TOI for two seasons running?

That coaching staff and management that barely made the playoffs last season , had EK go godmode to go deep in those playoffs and are the NHL joke this year?
That management/coaching staff
Hmmm
I wouldnt trust them to manage my netflix account

 

[Micklebot]

Doesn't Ceci have among the worst advanced metrics in the NHL? @Micklebot

Sure, but so do some other guys that most consider quite a bit better.

Player	TOI	CF%	GF%	SCF%	HDCF%	xGF%	Pts/60	OZ %
Hjalmarsson	296.9	44.67	36.84	47.2	49.48	45.45	0.41	40.17
Ceci	685.1	44.87	45.16	44.24	43.29	42.69	0.43	44.34
Vatanen	472.3	45.91	41.86	43.56	44.97	47.93	0.5	49.23
McDonagh	618.8	45.92	54.84	47.37	50.18	42.74	0.95	40.11

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Now, the complaint about Ceci is that this isn't a one off. But everyone of those guys have been in better situations than Ceci has been at some point during their recent careers.

 

[BatherSeason]

Btw, Chezz can do it too.

There is a Cody Ceci thread specifically for this.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

When did anyone, from Managment, say that "Oduya was brought in to replace Methot" or that he was a top pairing defender" ???

I'd like to read that statement if it's out there, on the interwebs somewhere. I suspect this is just some "fans" adding 2 plus 2 and getting 7.

What was it that Dorion gave up to pick up Dumont, that you think was worth so much?

The Previous two coaches were "inexperienced", and the current Coach had previous NHL Head Coaching experience ..................... so I'm sure what you're try to say with that ........... perhaps you want them to hire another Cory Clouston ?

Management doesn't need to say it, their actions have proven it. Do you think they would publicly come out and say "Oduya is going to replace Methot and be on the top pair"?

The point is not what Dorion gave up but why on earth pick him up to begin with? He has no idea how to play the system yet Boucher throws him in as if he's some veteran of the system when we have young guys who have been learning the system for a while now that could be plugged in his place. "It will take 6 weeks to learn the system", neglects the young options we have that play the SAME system in the AHL for some guy he coached in some minor league....

Boucher hasn't coached in the NHL since the 2012-2013 season....times have changed.

 

[BatherSeason]

Management doesn't need to say it, their actions have proven it. Do you think they would publicly come out and say "Oduya is going to replace Methot and be on the top pair"?

The point is not what Dorion gave up but why on earth pick him up to begin with? He has no idea how to play the system yet Boucher throws him in as if he's some veteran of the system when we have young guys who have been learning the system for a while now that could be plugged in his place. "It will take 6 weeks to learn the system", neglects the young options we have that play the SAME system in the AHL for some guy he coached in some minor league....

Boucher hasn't coached in the NHL since the 2012-2013 season....times have changed.

Weird part is that I don't think Oduya ever played for Boucher, yet he is allowed to step right in to the first pair while other players "need to learn to eat steak"?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I don’t even know how the draft odds work anymore. Do you still get the best shot if you’re the worst in the league? Odds just aren’t as good as he older days right?

It used to be that dead last gave you 48.2% odds of drafting first, because of the "jump a maximum of 4 spots" rule.

Since 2013, these odds are down to 25%.

Also, prior to 2016, the last place team was sure to pick 1st or 2nd.

Now, they can go down to 4th.

 

[BondraTime]

It used to be that dead last gave you 48.2% odds of drafting first, because of the "jump a maximum of 4 spots" rule.

Since 2013, these odds are down to 25%.

Also, prior to 2016, the last place team was sure to pick 1st or 2nd.

Now, they can go down to 4th.

Odds are actually 18% for finishing last.

Going by the odds, we are more likely to end up with pick 5/6 than we are 1-4, should we finish 3rd last in the league.

Right now, siting in 3rd last, we have 40% odds of getting 5th pick, and 18% chance of getting 6th pick. Odds of getting either one of these picks are higher than either pick 1-4.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Some fans are so trash in this city. If you grind away along the boards you are considered a great player here. Guys like Mike Fisher got so much praise for doing so little on the scoresheet. Skilled guys get thrown under the bus here the min something goes wrong. I saw it with Alfie, Spezza, Redden, Chara and now Karlsson. There is very little appreciation for highly skilled guys in the city the min things start going bad.

Sometimes i envy fans like the mtl canadiens sure they also throw certain players under the bus but the amount of respect they had for highly skilled guys like Subban and Kovalev and them not wanting to trade them cause they know they have a role on their that is next to impossible to replace is something I wish more ppl in the Sens army understood. Karlsson should be at a level above Kovalev and Subban for what he has done for the ottawa senators but here we are discussing his trade instead of making him feel like he should be a senators for life. But hey we should do anything we can to keep Mark Stone

I agree with some of our fans being trash, especially the ones calling for EK's head the one season where he's struggling due to being obviously hindered by post-surgery issues, but you obviously don't know much about Montreal's fanbase if you think they are better fans than we are. I've lived here for 10 years and I still shake my head at the ridiculous crap they say. Subban has many many detractors in this town.

You also kind of hurt your own argument by then naming Mark Stone at the end there. Stone deserves just as much praise and respect as EK. He might not be as talented, but he's exactly the kind of guy you keep around at all costs.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Odds are actually 18% for finishing last.

Going by the odds, we are more likely to end up with pick 5/6 than we are 1-4, should we finish 3rd last in the league.

Right now, siting in 3rd last, we have 40% odds of getting 5th pick, and 18% chance of getting 6th pick. Odds of getting either one of these picks are higher than either pick 1-4.

I goofed.

It was 20% before Vegas got in. I don't know where I got that 25% from.

As you stated, it's a tiny bit less than 18% now.

 

[Tuna99]

Johnny Oduya’s beard could eat steak. The guy has multiple Cup rings, he is steak

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Johnny Oduya’s beard could eat steak. The guy has multiple Cup rings, he is steak

More like milk steak.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Management doesn't need to say it, their actions have proven it. Do you think they would publicly come out and say "Oduya is going to replace Methot and be on the top pair"?

So Oduya is Karlssons' regular partner, according to you, right?

That's funny, because I seem to remember, at the begining of the season, Phaneuf was playing with Karlsson a lot, as did Claesson.

Seeing how EH65 averages 26:22 min per game, and Oduya averages 16:53.......... I could suggest that your fabricated BS claim that their "actions have proven it" hold little or no water at all; In fact their actions suggest that he is NOT Karlssons' partner on the top pairing, as he's not playing nearly enough time, with Karlsson to even suggest that.




So that's a FAIL.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Weird part is that I don't think Oduya ever played for Boucher, yet he is allowed to step right in to the first pair while other players "need to learn to eat steak"?

Funny thing is Oduya's TOI stats proves he's NOT on the first pairing.



Try again.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Funny thing is Oduya's TOI stats proves he's NOT on the first pairing.



Try again.

Are you really arguing that Oduya hasn't been playing as Karlsson's defensive partner? Like the team literally releases line up sheets with him listed as his partner every game. Boucher juggles combinations all the time and inevitably when the Sens are down, another D will roll out with Karlsson on offensive draws but Oduya has consistently been Karlsson's regular D partner for about 2 months. Its our second most common duo after Ceci and Phaneuf this season. Left wing lock shows they've been on the ice together for 5 goals against in the last 10 games together.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Are you really arguing that Oduya hasn't been playing as Karlsson's defensive partner? Like the team literally releases line up sheets with him listed as his partner every game. Boucher juggles combinations all the time and inevitably when the Sens are down, another D will roll out with Karlsson on offensive draws but Oduya has consistently been Karlsson's regular D partner for about 2 months. Its our second most common duo after Ceci and Phaneuf this season. Left wing lock shows they've been on the ice together for 5 goals against in the last 10 games together.

And yet Oduya plays an average of 10 minutes less per game than Karlsson

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

And yet Oduya plays an average of 10 minutes less per game than Karlsson

So let's just clarify this. You are asserting that Oduya has not been Erik Karlsson's regular D partner?

 

[BondraTime]

And yet Oduya plays an average of 10 minutes less per game than Karlsson

2016-2017
Marc Methot TOI - 19:49
Erik Karlsson TOI - 26:50

2015-2016
Marc Methot TOI - 20:39
Erik Karlsson TOI - 28:58

Would you argue that they were not defensive partners?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

So let's just clarify this. You are asserting that Oduya has not been Erik Karlsson's regular D partner?

I'm saying Karlsson plays with just about everyone, and not exclusivity with Oduya.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

I'm saying Karlsson plays with just about everyone, and not exclusivity with Oduya.

Okay, yeah see Bondra's post above. That's always the case with Karlsson. Methot played most of his ice time with Karlsson and Oduya plays almost all his ice time with Karlsson... because its his D partner. Hence, the previous claim that the team is using Oduya to replace Methot. Pretty simple stuff.

 

[SAK11]

Okay, yeah see Bondra's post above. That's always the case with Karlsson. Methot played most of his ice time with Karlsson and Oduya plays almost all his ice time with Karlsson... because its his D partner. Hence, the previous claim that the team is using Oduya to replace Methot. Pretty simple stuff.

I do think it's disingenuous to say Oduya's a 1st pairing d-man for this team, as a few people in this thread have said.

Methot played 3 more minutes per game and Karlsson played with him around 65% of the time at even strength. Karlsson's only playing with Oduya 38% of the time at even strength.
Both Chabot and Claesson have Karlsson as their most regular partner this year, too.
Last year, we had a definite top 4 and then a bottom pair [our #4 D played almost 6 more minutes than #5].
This year, we have a top 3 and a bottom 3, and Karlsson rotates between those bottom 3 guys a lot of time. Oduya is in that bottom 3, and has seen decreasing ice time from month to month so far.
Don't get it twisted, though, I think Oduya's been bad and would be fine to see him in the press box. While Boucher hasn't reduced his ice-time enough for most of us, it seems that he does realize he's nowhere close to Methot.