GDT: Sens host Preds 7pm ET SN1: empty sausage edition

[BigBush*]

Well, this is the kind of thing that happens when the team isn't producing. That first line is really good, but we need more than that because it's just not working for the rest of the team. I'm sure Turris understands that and above all is not stats but making the playoffs I believe. Turris has played with Michalek and Stone last year and was very good, he also played with MacArthur and Ryan and was really good. I don't see why it wouldn't work now with Ryan and Michalek. Zibanejad needs to have guys who drive the play like Hoffman and Stone to play with him. Zibby is more of a dump and chase type of guy who hits and goes in deep so it could be a good fit with Hoffman and Stone who can really set up the play. Zibby is like a winger who plays centre and Stone is like a centre playing wing so I think that could be a good fit.

Of course there's no garantee but we now Mac(9MM until Mac comes back)-Turris-Ryan have played well before together and that Hoff and Stone are also very good together so I'd take a shot at it.

why does everyone think this? Ottawa is right up there leading the league in goals. Sure, its mainly coming from one line, but the team is still producing.

stick with it, give guys like Zibanejad and Ryan more time. If by the 15-20 game mark the team is no longer among the leaders in goals and stops winning hockey games then i'd be willing to make a big line up change

 

[Alex1234]

Is it not possible that those three could have success apart? And that their success could help get more out of the guys who are struggling?

It's certainly an option worth discussing, same way the coach tried to get Alfredsson away from Heatley and Spezza back in the day. If it doesn't work, put em back together.

Much smarter to see if you have internal solutions to a problem before you go external (trade). Personally, I'd like to see if Prince could have success on Zibanejad and Ryan's line first; I think he could add a similar dynamic to what Hoffman added last year and has the added benefit of keeping hst together.

We've been trying to unstruggle Ryan for a year and a 1/2 now...
maybe its time to focus on whats working (HST) and let zig and ryan find a fire from within

enough is enough at some point

 

[BigBush*]

to me the most glaring issue has been our 2nd pairing. theyve been poor in pretty much every game. The only line up change i'd make is taking Wier out for a few games.

With the forwards, i'd be open to moving Pageau up the line up and moving Zib down. Zib responds well to these types of messages and it looks like Ryan could use some speed on his line.

Other then that, i see ZERO reason to chnage up the things that have been working well so far

 

[Baby Ryan]

We've been trying to unstruggle Ryan for a year and a 1/2 now...
maybe its time to focus on whats working (HST) and let zig and ryan find a fire from within

enough is enough at some point

Lol what?

A year and a half?

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Lol what?

A year and a half?

Curtis doesn't care. Because he smiles.

 

[Boud]

why does everyone think this? Ottawa is right up there leading the league in goals. Sure, its mainly coming from one line, but the team is still producing.

stick with it, give guys like Zibanejad and Ryan more time. If by the 15-20 game mark the team is no longer among the leaders in goals and stops winning hockey games then i'd be willing to make a big line up change

I shouldn't have said producing because that not what I meant. I think overall the team really hasn't played good other than the 1rst line and some exceptions here and there (Like Cowen). When the team isn't playing well, some things need to be shaked up to have a team that not only has 1 line playing well, but is playing well as a whole unit. Right now, if you want to neutralize the Ottawa Senators, you only need to shutdown the HST line and that's it. If a team is able to do that, like Montreal and Pitsburgh did, then there really isn't much going on.


Here's my take on the season so far: We've won 3 games against the 3 worst teams in the league right now and STILL we could've lost to Toronto because we didn't play well, we won against Columbus but didn't play well for atleast half of the game, and we got lucky on a coaches challenged who was not even on the actual goal but on a offside against Buffalo which prevented them from tying the game in the 3rd. I'm not here to discuss about the coaches challenges, but we didn't play well and taht's the bottom line. All of those 3 teams are terrible and have even more terrible goaltending so I'm not surprised to see us with that many goal thus far in the season.

The 3 other games we've played against better teams like Montreal, Pitsburgh, and Nashville we've been able to score only 4 goals and 3 of those we're last night. Why is that? Because those teams we're able to contain that 1rst line and the 2nd line wasn't able to generate anything offensively.


1rst line (Hoff-Turris-Stone) Combine for 9 goals (50% of the team)
2nd line (Ryan-Zibanejad-Lazar(Mac)) Combine for 3 goals (2 Empty netters)
3rd line (Michalek-Pageau-Lazar(Mac)) Combine for 5 goals (1 empty netter)
4rth line ( Chiasson-Smith-Neil) Combine for 1 goal

So the 4rth line was able to score as many goals as the 2nd line if you don't count empty netters (I don't count them) and that not acceptable. We've won against the 3 worst teams in the league but other than that we've not been up to the task at all, again other than the HST line.

Something needs to change if we don't want to be a 1 line team. For good teams, it's way too easy to contain only 1 line. Of course I'm aware that there are other things, like Wiercioch who has been not good at all but Cameron needs to split his lines so that other teams have atleast two lines to watch out for.

EDIT: We played well last night. Probably the best game of the year so far.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

I am much sooner putting JGP with Ryan than I am splitting up our freaking dominant HST line. The whole point of juggling lines is to find chemistry, so why mess with what HST already has?

Because two good lines >> one great line and one terrible line.

However, I agree that we should try Pager with Ryan first. Splitting HST should be done if we see no results or even progress over the next 5-8 games even with shuffling the LW and C.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Maybe the fact that the two of those games were in the second half of a back to back, and one of those back to back games was the 3rd game in 4 nights had something to do with the team lacking energy.

But I like your explanation better. Fits the "sky is falling" motif this board seems to enjoy so much.

All that said, I'm not against breaking up the HST line, nor am I for it, but it really depends on the situation. If we're on the road, it makes sense. Make it harder to match up against us. At home, we can take advantage of last change with the HST. Ideally, we have multiple options with chemistry together, so that when things aren't working, we can change the look and see if that brings results.

Agreed two of the games were on back to backs, but that doesn't change the facts.

All I was pointing out is the number of goals scored isn't necessarily indicative of an offense that shouldn't be tinkered with.

Fact is other than one line and one D there is practically no offense to speak of.

While I can't speak to whether the people on this board enjoy the "sky is falling" thing, it has been increasingly more obvious there is little tolerance for differing opinions.

 

[ATdaisuki]

i didn't see the whole game, but i thought we were better last night. a lot more possession and chances.

 

[BigBush*]

I shouldn't have said producing because that not what I meant. I think overall the team really hasn't played good other than the 1rst line and some exceptions here and there (Like Cowen). When the team isn't playing well, some things need to be shaked up to have a team that not only has 1 line playing well, but is playing well as a whole unit. Right now, if you want to neutralize the Ottawa Senators, you only need to shutdown the HST line and that's it. If a team is able to do that, like Montreal and Pitsburgh did, then there really isn't much going on.


Here's my take on the season so far: We've won 3 games against the 3 worst teams in the league right now and STILL we could've lost to Toronto because we didn't play well, we won against Columbus but didn't play well for atleast half of the game, and we got lucky on a coaches challenged who was not even on the actual goal but on a offside against Buffalo which prevented them from tying the game in the 3rd. I'm not here to discuss about the coaches challenges, but we didn't play well and taht's the bottom line. All of those 3 teams are terrible and have even more terrible goaltending so I'm not surprised to see us with that many goal thus far in the season.

The 3 other games we've played against better teams like Montreal, Pitsburgh, and Nashville we've been able to score only 4 goals and 3 of those we're last night. Why is that? Because those teams we're able to contain that 1rst line and the 2nd line wasn't able to generate anything offensively.


1rst line (Hoff-Turris-Stone) Combine for 9 goals (50% of the team)
2nd line (Ryan-Zibanejad-Lazar(Mac)) Combine for 3 goals (2 Empty netters)
3rd line (Michalek-Pageau-Lazar(Mac)) Combine for 5 goals (1 empty netter)
4rth line ( Chiasson-Smith-Neil) Combine for 1 goal

So the 4rth line was able to score as many goals as the 2nd line if you don't count empty netters (I don't count them) and that not acceptable. We've won against the 3 worst teams in the league but other than that we've not been up to the task at all, again other than the HST line.

Something needs to change if we don't want to be a 1 line team. For good teams, it's way too easy to contain only 1 line. Of course I'm aware that there are other things, like Wiercioch who has been not good at all but Cameron needs to split his lines so that other teams have atleast two lines to watch out for.

EDIT: We played well last night. Probably the best game of the year so far.

All very good points. I don't agree that things should be shaken up yet. I think some minor tweaks should be made and guys should be given more time though to produce (mainly Zib and Ryan)

 

[BigBush*]

i didn't see the whole game, but i thought we were better last night. a lot more possession and chances.

Without a doubt yes. Nashville was opportunistic on their PP and that's why they won

 

[fringie]

The 2nd line is just not working, we need to break up again to get Zib and Ryan going on Separate lines.

Both have the highest percentage of Offensive Zone starts on the team by a wide margin, and it is not even close, yet they get lowest CF% of than anyone else. I know it is early to get into the detailed stats, but when you start in the ozone and then get destroyed in the shots department, that is just bad. We need to break them up and let Pageau centre Ryan to see if it sparks something.

BTW, the Wiercioch hate on this board is way over board, and almost entirely unfound, yes he had a slow start to the season, but last two games vs PIT and NSH, he has been great.

Against NSH, Ceci and Wier had highest D-zone starts of any OTT players, and yet Wier still got CF% of 58%

In PIT his CF% was at 57%, and had the same D-zone starts as Cowen and Boro, JC and MB had CF = 6, while Ceci and PW had 21 and 22, highest on the team by the way. And these numbers were consistent with what I saw with my own eyes. In the last two games, Wier was skating much better, and passing the puck much more efficiently. As a result, when he and Ceci on the ice, the team spends less time D-zone, and not forced to play defence.

That was one particular play I remember, in the 2nd period, NSH was cycling the puck in OTT zone, and Pageau did a great job winning a puck battle behind the net with great body position against a much bigger opponent, and but NSH player had support, so Wier come to the board to help, and dished out the puck, and passed right on the tape or Ceci who was open in the front the net, and was able to easily skate out of zone.

It is impossible to be a bad hockey player as some of you say the he is to post these numbers, and make these plays. Wier passes the puck as well as any D on this team, much much better than either Cowen and Boro.

The Cowen was better last night had a lot to do with playing with Wideman, who is an excellent passer and skater.

Just because Wier is not hitting people and outmuscle them, and skates with ugly strides, does not make him an ineffective player. Actually he is a very effective D-man.

Both Jamie Mclennan and Ray Ferraro said in the broadcast at one point or the other, they are fans of Wier. BTW, he was also invited to represent Canada at WHC, sure these scouts at HC do not know anything about hockey .

Enough with the bashing of Wier already, we need him in lineup, and Wideman. We need people that can pass or skate the puck out of d-zone, because that is what NHL is all about now.

 

[BigBush*]

The 2nd line is just not working, we need to break up again to get Zib and Ryan going on Separate lines.

Both have the highest percentage of Offensive Zone starts on the team by a wide margin, and it is not even close, yet they get lowest CF% of than anyone else. I know it is early to get into the detailed stats, but when you start in the ozone and then get destroyed in the shots department, that is just bad. We need to break them up and let Pageau centre Ryan to see if it sparks something.

BTW, the Wiercioch hate on this board is way over board, and almost entirely unfound, yes he had a slow start to the season, but last two games vs PIT and NSH, he has been great.

Against NSH, Ceci and Wier had highest D-zone starts of any OTT players, and yet Wier still got CF% of 58%

In PIT his CF% was at 57%, and had the same D-zone starts as Cowen and Boro, JC and MB had CF = 6, while Ceci and PW had 21 and 22, highest on the team by the way. And these numbers were consistent with what I saw with my own eyes. In the last two games, Wier was skating much better, and passing the puck much more efficiently. As a result, when he and Ceci on the ice, the team spends less time D-zone, and not forced to play defence.

That was one particular play I remember, in the 2nd period, NSH was cycling the puck in OTT zone, and Pageau did a great job winning a puck battle behind the net with great body position against a much bigger opponent, and but NSH player had support, so Wier come to the board to help, and dished out the puck, and passed right on the tape or Ceci who was open in the front the net, and was able to easily skate out of zone.

It is impossible to be a bad hockey player as some of you say the he is to post these numbers, and make these plays. Wier passes the puck as well as any D on this team, much much better than either Cowen and Boro.

The Cowen was better last night had a lot to do with playing with Wideman, who is an excellent passer and skater.

Just because Wier is not hitting people and outmuscle them, and skates with ugly strides, does not make him an ineffective player. Actually he is a very effective D-man.

Both Jamie Mclennan and Ray Ferraro said in the broadcast at one point or the other, they are fans of Wier. BTW, he was also invited to represent Canada at WHC, sure these scouts at HC do not know anything about hockey .

Enough with the bashing of Wier already, we need him in lineup, and Wideman. We need people that can pass or skate the puck out of d-zone, because that is what NHL is all about now.

Wier has been the worst of the bunch IMO. Who do you suggest comes out of the lineup? Boro? I hope not he's been very solid

 

[fringie]

Wier has been the worst of the bunch IMO. Who do you suggest comes out of the lineup? Boro? I hope not he's been very solid

Yes, I think Boro comes out, he is a 7th d-man, who is tough, and I admire that greatly, I mean he is really tough in every way, but he also has limited skillset, he can draw in whenever one of the d-man is hurt or we need toughness in the lineup for whatever reason.

How was Wier the worst? He was bad in the first 4 games, true. He has turned corner. We always need to remember, your eyes lie to you all the time. IMO, Wier is suffering from this ugly duck syndrome, as he is effective, but just plain ugly looking when he does them. Hence gives people the impression he sucks, when he really does not. I mean if he has Methot's body, he would be a 6 mil D.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Weircioch is by very far our worst dman

People have finally seen the light

The sooner we are rid of him the better

 

[Holdurbreathe]

That's fair, but while we're looking closer, you'll notice the two games where they were shut down were both on the second game of back-to-backs - fatigue may have been a factor. Besides, my point was more that our goals-against/shots-against totals should be more of the focus than our goals-for. Regardless of how we arrived at 19, it's hard to do much better than we have in that area (1st place Montreal has only scored 20).

Don't disagree with you at all in terms of the defensive part of the game.

However IMO line and defensive pairing combinations can have a significant effect on both sides of the puck.

If only one line can exert any offensive pressure that suggests the team is going to spend too much time defending, which has been the case to a great extent so far this year.

IMO some adjustments might balance the offense and have a positive effect defensively as well.

 

[Holdurbreathe]

Without a doubt yes. Nashville was opportunistic on their PP and that's why they won

Nashville won because of the number of penalties the Sens took and nobody not playing on the HST line could find the back of the net.

Overall the team probably played it best game, but they still have to be much better.

 

[BigBush*]

Yes, I think Boro comes out, he is a 7th d-man, who is tough, and I admire that greatly, I mean he is really tough in every way, but he also has limited skillset, he can draw in whenever one of the d-man is hurt or we need toughness in the lineup for whatever reason.

How was Wier the worst? He was bad in the first 4 games, true. He has turned corner. We always need to remember, your eyes lie to you all the time. IMO, Wier is suffering from this ugly duck syndrome, as he is effective, but just plain ugly looking when he does them. Hence gives people the impression he sucks, when he really does not. I mean if he has Methot's body, he would be a 6 mil D.

Lol, I'm not even sure how to reply to this.

I'm just glad 95% of the fan base or else like you said I'd be worried by eyes were lying to me

Offensively, Boro has a very limited skill set. But defensively he's great, and makes good decisions/ passes to get the puck out of his own zone

 

[fringie]

Nashville won because of the number of penalties the Sens took and nobody not playing on the HST line could find the back of the net.

Overall the team probably played it best game, but they still have to be much better.

Agreed. 1st and 3rd lines I think played well, 3rd line does not score often, but had some good chances. That being said, aside with HST, every other line combination needs work, to get more offence out of the forward group.

 

[TheNewEra]

we have been trying by committee to fill that second line LW spot, have tried michalek,macarthur,chiasson and lazar. So far macarthur looked the best in that spot but he is out right now so i hope we continue trying by committee before we break up hst. The two options left that still keep zibby and ryan in the top 6 are

Prince-Zibby-Ryan

or

Zibby-Pageau-Ryan
Michalek/Prince-Lazar-Chiasson/Michalek

 

[UnHappyDude]

I HATE how there is no more 4 on 4 hockey after regulation and it goes stright to 3 on 3. They should have done a 4 on 4 for 4 and a 3 on 3 for 3 or something to that effect. 3 on 3 is barely even hockey anymore.

i also HATE how the announcers are going to be telling me how great and exciting it is all year. Everytime there is a 3 on 3 their all like "wow this is the greatest thing ever!!! blah blah blah, its so great". I HATE it

 

[BigBush*]

I HATE how there is no more 4 on 4 hockey after regulation and it goes stright to 3 on 3. They should have done a 4 on 4 for 4 and a 3 on 3 for 3 or something to that effect. 3 on 3 is barely even hockey anymore.

i also HATE how the announcers are going to be telling me how great and exciting it is all year. Everytime there is a 3 on 3 their all like "wow this is the greatest thing ever!!! blah blah blah, its so great". I HATE it

I've loved it so far. 4 on 4 was entertaining as well, but the 3 on 3 has been cool

 

[UnHappyDude]

I've loved it so far. 4 on 4 was entertaining as well, but the 3 on 3 has been cool

I do like 3 on 3 better than the shootout to decide a game

 

[Do Make Say Think]

As long as there are no more ties I am happy

 

[Xspyrit]

Who cares about the result? We dominated the shot count 41-25! Despite the fact that the PPs were 6-2 for Nashville...

Seriously, game ended in a shootout, i.e. pretty much tie game

Love Michalek up with Turris and Stone, we know they have chemistry.

Move Hoffman to Zibby and Ryan. Maybe he sparks them. Last chance for the Zibby-Ryan pairing. If that fails, you break them up.

Don't think the game was on TV yesterday so I couldn't record it and watch but I came here to say that. I was trying to say that just before the 1st game of the season, Hoffman with Turris and Stone makes it one of the best lines in hockey but it will make it harder for Ryan and Zibanejad to produce because Hoffman is a spark plug, and since Macarthur is not healthy, I don't see who else could help them be a better 2d line...

If Michalek, Ryan and Zibanejad can produce more by doing that change than only Hoffman, then do it!

Michalek-Turris-Stone
Hoffman-Zibanejad-Ryan
Prince-Pageau-Lazar
Chiasson-Smith-Neil