Post-Game Talk: Senators VS The Lehner #2 (Buffalo) Saturday Sept.26 TSN5 7pm

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Vesa Awesaka

#KeepTheSenate
Jul 4, 2013
18,236
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I honestly think unless Cowen becomes Methot 2.0, people will hate him. He tries something risky, and people complain that he should have played it safe. He plays it safe, people complain that he just turned it over and killed any offensive chance.

He's got the skill set to be a pretty effective player if he can get his confidence back, and refine his decision making a bit. His skating looks much better, but he seems a bit stiff pivoting and moving laterally.

One thing that is becoming apparent to me is that he struggles with quick players along the boards. If he not able to knock them down they tend to just get away from him to easily. Its like he's too robotic. He lacks the flexibility and the explosiveness
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,902
9,318
One thing that is becoming apparent to me is that he struggles with quick players along the boards. If he not able to knock them down they tend to just get away from him to easily. Its like he's too robotic. He lacks the flexibility and the explosiveness

I think the past suspensions are also at play with that. For whatever reason, he gets dinged when it's tall body vs short body...yet a few other big defensemen out there get away with the same hits.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,593
9,108
I think the past suspensions are also at play with that. For whatever reason, he gets dinged when it's tall body vs short body...yet a few other big defensemen out there get away with the same hits.

I agree with this as well, it seems hard to know what is legal & what isn't any more given that PK was not suspended for an obvious slash to injure. Cowen has been suspended in the past & of course past suspensions go against you & the fines or loss of pay can are be substantial & higher with each new suspension. It has hurt his play on the ice & worse it has hurt his confidence as he tries to learn what is & isn't permissible when most of the time it is a very fine line that separates the two which can go either way. Cowen has all the tools no question, but it's his decision making that seems ... well indecisive at times & may be in some way be due to these past suspensions.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
74
I agree with this as well, it seems hard to know what is legal & what isn't any more given that PK was not suspended for an obvious slash to injure. Cowen has been suspended in the past & of course past suspensions go against you & the fines or loss of pay can are be substantial & higher with each new suspension. It has hurt his play on the ice & worse it has hurt his confidence as he tries to learn what is & isn't permissible when most of the time it is a very fine line that separates the two which can go either way. Cowen has all the tools no question, but it's his decision making that seems ... well indecisive at times & may be in some way be due to these past suspensions.

He definitely doesn't know what he can do. Same problem Gryba had after that hit in the playoffs.

This is not just about Cowen... But applies to him too. He is just awkward. I am no great athlete... But when I was younger I played lots of sports and I was pretty fast and athletic... But I always was thinking about what to do next. That was my problem in being a good basketball or hockey player or softball hitter. Good players at every level no longer have to. It is why Greening is Greening and not a really good power forward. And I think that is entirely Cowen's problem and why he might never end up even as a solid bottom pairing defenceman.

You watch Methot or even Chabot in the preseason. They are just graceful and methodical. There is no slight millisecond of thought. They have instincts or whatever to just react and not think about what to do next. Wiercioch when he is going like to end the season has it. Ceci, Methot have it. Borowiecki severely lacks talent and skills compared to good top 4 D... But even he knows what he is going to do and it is instinct. Cowen is all tools and no ability to get rid of that millisecond if thought, and just flow naturally. I still hope that he can find it. It is the hardest thing to find and it is what makes you an NHL player. And the hitting thing hust makes it so much worse. So big and strong he had to second guess the one biggest instinct he might have, to lay the hit. Because even his clean hits end up so devastating. The one truly instinctual part of his game... He has to second guess.

With so much time off the ice with injury, so much dealing with real serious, lagging injuries... That affect what he can do and having to think about how to compensate for them. No constant vet D partner to rely on and learn from. Cowen is a natural athlete and was a great junior player. He is not stupid... But he is thinking it all the time.

It isn't that bad not to be a natural. I truly think Chara was never a natural at all. He taught himself through all that millisecond of thinking and his huge, odd unique frame into being a HHOFer. But it is hard. Hard to have to go through having to think about every single movement and reaction and hit he made. He triumphed but it is so much more rare to do that then to just have the instincts and not the body. Larry Robinson taught himself and was coached into being what he was from just a raw huge frame.

Cowen might as well be a rookie right now. He is that far behind in development. But if healthy he is still young. Still so much raw potential. But it is so hard when you are at the point of having to think about what to do facing every rush and everytime you end up with the puck.

Once or if he gets it he does have a lot of experience to fall back on. He might progress rather quickly once he gets "it". If he ever does. Guy has the raw skills and strength to literally be the strongest D in the league. He is a freak. Can he figure it out? Cameron seems to be a good coach and to really put a purpose and plan together for the bottom half of the roster. A job. Still a 3rd pairing D has a huge job. 17-20 mins a night. PKing. It is different then say a rookie 4th line winger getting 8 mins vs the other teams 4th lines. Bottom pair D is a tough key position.

This team wants to make the playoffs... And whether fans believe it or not... The GM, coach and players are thinking about contending to win the Stanley Cup. I think Cowen gets the leash for a couple of months. To progress and grow and maybe become effective. Now and for several years he has simply been bad. No excuses. Bad. He can't think the game and his game is all over the place. I think this season to start... For 25 games he gets clear purpose and role and a consistent partner or two. Team still hopes for a Robinson/Chara lite version. But also if he can't get smarter and figure out how to use his huge size and obvious potential and talent... 30 games in he is just not gonna play much anymore. Scratched.

We saw Wiercioch find his role and game last year. Hopefully Cowen can this year. But he won't get all year and he will need to show consistent progress.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,593
9,108
He definitely doesn't know what he can do. Same problem Gryba had after that hit in the playoffs.

This is not just about Cowen... But applies to him too. He is just awkward. I am no great athlete... But when I was younger I played lots of sports and I was pretty fast and athletic... But I always was thinking about what to do next. That was my problem in being a good basketball or hockey player or softball hitter. Good players at every level no longer have to. It is why Greening is Greening and not a really good power forward. And I think that is entirely Cowen's problem and why he might never end up even as a solid bottom pairing defenceman.

You watch Methot or even Chabot in the preseason. They are just graceful and methodical. There is no slight millisecond of thought. They have instincts or whatever to just react and not think about what to do next. Wiercioch when he is going like to end the season has it. Ceci, Methot have it. Borowiecki severely lacks talent and skills compared to good top 4 D... But even he knows what he is going to do and it is instinct. Cowen is all tools and no ability to get rid of that millisecond if thought, and just flow naturally. I still hope that he can find it. It is the hardest thing to find and it is what makes you an NHL player. And the hitting thing hust makes it so much worse. So big and strong he had to second guess the one biggest instinct he might have, to lay the hit. Because even his clean hits end up so devastating. The one truly instinctual part of his game... He has to second guess.

With so much time off the ice with injury, so much dealing with real serious, lagging injuries... That affect what he can do and having to think about how to compensate for them. No constant vet D partner to rely on and learn from. Cowen is a natural athlete and was a great junior player. He is not stupid... But he is thinking it all the time.

It isn't that bad not to be a natural. I truly think Chara was never a natural at all. He taught himself through all that millisecond of thinking and his huge, odd unique frame into being a HHOFer. But it is hard. Hard to have to go through having to think about every single movement and reaction and hit he made. He triumphed but it is so much more rare to do that then to just have the instincts and not the body. Larry Robinson taught himself and was coached into being what he was from just a raw huge frame.

Cowen might as well be a rookie right now. He is that far behind in development. But if healthy he is still young. Still so much raw potential. But it is so hard when you are at the point of having to think about what to do facing every rush and everytime you end up with the puck.

Once or if he gets it he does have a lot of experience to fall back on. He might progress rather quickly once he gets "it". If he ever does. Guy has the raw skills and strength to literally be the strongest D in the league. He is a freak. Can he figure it out? Cameron seems to be a good coach and to really put a purpose and plan together for the bottom half of the roster. A job. Still a 3rd pairing D has a huge job. 17-20 mins a night. PKing. It is different then say a rookie 4th line winger getting 8 mins vs the other teams 4th lines. Bottom pair D is a tough key position.

This team wants to make the playoffs... And whether fans believe it or not... The GM, coach and players are thinking about contending to win the Stanley Cup. I think Cowen gets the leash for a couple of months. To progress and grow and maybe become effective. Now and for several years he has simply been bad. No excuses. Bad. He can't think the game and his game is all over the place. I think this season to start... For 25 games he gets clear purpose and role and a consistent partner or two. Team still hopes for a Robinson/Chara lite version. But also if he can't get smarter and figure out how to use his huge size and obvious potential and talent... 30 games in he is just not gonna play much anymore. Scratched.

We saw Wiercioch find his role and game last year. Hopefully Cowen can this year. But he won't get all year and he will need to show consistent progress.

While I agree with most that you say, I also hope he is able to adjust but I'm not sure if he will ever get to the point where he can think as fast as say Karlsson. I too played a lot of sports & no matter how much some guys tried they just were never able to become quicker thinkers at the sport even though they were or are very smart people, it's different, it's reactionary, it's vision, it's a skill. Obviously people improve with practise but it's incremental & it may never be as quick as some would prefer. You also see it on almost every team with the elite players being top line players & quick thinkers, Stone is a great example of a guy with slow feet & a quick mind. I think Cowen will improve but as I say it will be incrementally & maybe not as fast as this fan base would like & maybe not the coach either.
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,348
50,012
He definitely doesn't know what he can do. Same problem Gryba had after that hit in the playoffs.

This is not just about Cowen... But applies to him too. He is just awkward. I am no great athlete... But when I was younger I played lots of sports and I was pretty fast and athletic... But I always was thinking about what to do next. That was my problem in being a good basketball or hockey player or softball hitter. Good players at every level no longer have to. It is why Greening is Greening and not a really good power forward. And I think that is entirely Cowen's problem and why he might never end up even as a solid bottom pairing defenceman.

You watch Methot or even Chabot in the preseason. They are just graceful and methodical. There is no slight millisecond of thought. They have instincts or whatever to just react and not think about what to do next. Wiercioch when he is going like to end the season has it. Ceci, Methot have it. Borowiecki severely lacks talent and skills compared to good top 4 D... But even he knows what he is going to do and it is instinct. Cowen is all tools and no ability to get rid of that millisecond if thought, and just flow naturally. I still hope that he can find it. It is the hardest thing to find and it is what makes you an NHL player. And the hitting thing hust makes it so much worse. So big and strong he had to second guess the one biggest instinct he might have, to lay the hit. Because even his clean hits end up so devastating. The one truly instinctual part of his game... He has to second guess.

With so much time off the ice with injury, so much dealing with real serious, lagging injuries... That affect what he can do and having to think about how to compensate for them. No constant vet D partner to rely on and learn from. Cowen is a natural athlete and was a great junior player. He is not stupid... But he is thinking it all the time.

It isn't that bad not to be a natural. I truly think Chara was never a natural at all. He taught himself through all that millisecond of thinking and his huge, odd unique frame into being a HHOFer. But it is hard. Hard to have to go through having to think about every single movement and reaction and hit he made. He triumphed but it is so much more rare to do that then to just have the instincts and not the body. Larry Robinson taught himself and was coached into being what he was from just a raw huge frame.

Cowen might as well be a rookie right now. He is that far behind in development. But if healthy he is still young. Still so much raw potential. But it is so hard when you are at the point of having to think about what to do facing every rush and everytime you end up with the puck.

Once or if he gets it he does have a lot of experience to fall back on. He might progress rather quickly once he gets "it". If he ever does. Guy has the raw skills and strength to literally be the strongest D in the league. He is a freak. Can he figure it out? Cameron seems to be a good coach and to really put a purpose and plan together for the bottom half of the roster. A job. Still a 3rd pairing D has a huge job. 17-20 mins a night. PKing. It is different then say a rookie 4th line winger getting 8 mins vs the other teams 4th lines. Bottom pair D is a tough key position.

This team wants to make the playoffs... And whether fans believe it or not... The GM, coach and players are thinking about contending to win the Stanley Cup. I think Cowen gets the leash for a couple of months. To progress and grow and maybe become effective. Now and for several years he has simply been bad. No excuses. Bad. He can't think the game and his game is all over the place. I think this season to start... For 25 games he gets clear purpose and role and a consistent partner or two. Team still hopes for a Robinson/Chara lite version. But also if he can't get smarter and figure out how to use his huge size and obvious potential and talent... 30 games in he is just not gonna play much anymore. Scratched.

We saw Wiercioch find his role and game last year. Hopefully Cowen can this year. But he won't get all year and he will need to show consistent progress.

Ok well lets face it he is never going to be nice to watch like Karlsson or Chabot for that matter. He is a Big , somewhat awkward guy. (Chiasson is too) . To play any sport instinctively you have to have confidence or play with abandon (not care about impressing anyone) . Its feeling and in many ways loving the game. He has to play his game. Do what comes naturally to him. Now I think he is rattled. His confidence is shaken. What he thought he was ,,, well maybe he isn't that. So he is finding himself again and he is looking over his shoulder and trying to play , impress, and figure it out all at once. Its like he is broken and needs to fix himself. He has to keep it as simple as he possibly can. Play well defensively. Get the puck out. Not try to pass through someone's skates to the breaking forward. He also needs to play with an edge physically to be something that others are not. Not sure he can put it together. I think he has the raw ability but he has to have his mind right to get it done.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,902
9,318
Ok well lets face it he is never going to be nice to watch like Karlsson or Chabot for that matter. He is a Big , somewhat awkward guy. (Chiasson is too) . To play any sport instinctively you have to have confidence or play with abandon (not care about impressing anyone) . Its feeling and in many ways loving the game. He has to play his game. Do what comes naturally to him. Now I think he is rattled. His confidence is shaken. What he thought he was ,,, well maybe he isn't that. So he is finding himself again and he is looking over his shoulder and trying to play , impress, and figure it out all at once. Its like he is broken and needs to fix himself. He has to keep it as simple as he possibly can. Play well defensively. Get the puck out. Not try to pass through someone's skates to the breaking forward. He also needs to play with an edge physically to be something that others are not. Not sure he can put it together. I think he has the raw ability but he has to have his mind right to get it done.

:handclap:

That's why Murray kept saying that Cowen has to keep ti simple and just be a solid defensive D. Not saying he can't add a bit of offense down the road (we have seen him rush up the ice on occasion), but for now....just do the 'easy' stuff. Get the basics down pat again, then move on to the next stage.

That's why it's going to take a bit of time....and why fans need a bit of patience with him.
 

Othello*

Guest
Fans have been patient with him. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope he shows some worth this year.
 

StefanW

Registered User
Mar 13, 2013
6,286
0
Ottawa
www.storiesnumberstell.com
It is possible that Cowen could get a bit better, but he is unlikely to get a lot better. He was set back by injuries for sure, and there is some room to come back a bit there. However, if you look at the types of injuries he's had they all impact on mobility and the NHL game is certainly not slowing down.

If I feel ok with him on the bottom pairing this season I will consider it a win.
 

freddy61

Selfie
Jun 6, 2013
1,022
20
Up a tree
It is possible that Cowen could get a bit better, but he is unlikely to get a lot better. He was set back by injuries for sure, and there is some room to come back a bit there. However, if you look at the types of injuries he's had they all impact on mobility and the NHL game is certainly not slowing down.

If I feel ok with him on the bottom pairing this season I will consider it a win.

If Cowen can't rise to at least the 3-4 D then he's massively overpaid. The worse part is from listening to him talk in previous years he seemed oblivious to his poor play and seemed to blame it more on lack of opportunity. Thinking that way he may even think he deserves a bigger pay day reserved for the 1-2 D next time. I doubt he'll take a haircut.

I'd try to let him earn his contract this year hoping to raise his stock but if the right deal comes along I'd move him out west. I think they are pretty satisfied with EK, Methot and Ceci. It's just a shame Wiercioch is still a question mark for the remaining 3-4 spot. If Wier was a solid 2nd pair LD then they could risk rotating Boro and another D possibly Claesson in the 3rd LD pairing with whoever they decide will play the right side. That would make Cowen more expendable.

In a nutshell IMO it's top 4 for Cowen or bust otherwise he's overpaid.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
74
Ok well lets face it he is never going to be nice to watch like Karlsson or Chabot for that matter. He is a Big , somewhat awkward guy. (Chiasson is too) . To play any sport instinctively you have to have confidence or play with abandon (not care about impressing anyone) . Its feeling and in many ways loving the game. He has to play his game. Do what comes naturally to him. Now I think he is rattled. His confidence is shaken. What he thought he was ,,, well maybe he isn't that. So he is finding himself again and he is looking over his shoulder and trying to play , impress, and figure it out all at once. Its like he is broken and needs to fix himself. He has to keep it as simple as he possibly can. Play well defensively. Get the puck out. Not try to pass through someone's skates to the breaking forward. He also needs to play with an edge physically to be something that others are not. Not sure he can put it together. I think he has the raw ability but he has to have his mind right to get it done.

I agree. I do think he is like a rooie now. But he does have a long dominating career as a junior and relatively extensive NHL experience. I think if Or once he gets it he can progress relatively quickly for awhile. I like how you mentioned a guy playing like he doesn't care what people think or judge his game and just play with abandon. That's Boro to a T. He just gives it playing a simple physical game. Knows his weaknesses and stengths.

See I don't think Cowen knows his weaknesses and strengths. Knowing your weaknesses and compensating for them is the key thing to being a competent player. Cowen doesn't really know where he is at now. Even normally he would need to figure out his niche, but two years of injuries... And he can't fully know his capabilities, let alone his deficits. It must be tough to be where Cowen is now. But he does have his contract so it is less for him about the money or making it in that way. It is just about his brain and figuring it all out. So he has a zillion points of pressure, but at least he doesn't have to worry about a contract or money. I hope he doesn't feel guilty or bad about his contract, and isn't trying to earn it every day, every shift. He might well be... If so... He has to get even that out of his head. Just find his game. Figure out how to stop thinking about it. About anything.

I hope they help him by giving him a consistent partner. Having a consistent partner for 20 games will help him infinitely. No matter who it is.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,779
60,113
Ottawa, ON
I assume most of you Ottawa fans wishes his best after all. He is much more confident in this interview than I expected, I like his comments at the last parts of the interview.

Confidence has never been his problem.

Blowing up or melting down when things don't go his way has been.

I'd like to wish him well but with the way divisional playoffs are, I hope he and Bishop play terribly.

Not a fan of trading goalies within the division but that ship has sailed.
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
30,901
10,092
Parts Unknown
Confidence has never been his problem.

Blowing up or melting down when things don't go his way has been.

Yep.

"Lehner after a shutout" has never been a problem, ever. That's Lehner at his best, and he definitely has that skill level.

"Lehner after losing a game on goals that are on him but then he blames on his defencemen, and then letting it get under his skin for the next game as well"? That's a whole different Lehner.
 

topshelf15

Registered User
May 5, 2009
27,993
6,005
Again if Lehner plays tonight ,i wanna see a few knockdowns ,snowshowers and a few late stabs at pucks :laugh:We all know if we do it just enough ,boom
 

ChocolateLeclaire

Registered User
Jan 12, 2010
12,042
2
Ottawa, Canada
Ok guys, this was a game thread not a Lehner update thread. Let's move it onto the Jets game thread or if you'd like to discuss Buffalo's roster further, please discuss it in the Around the NHL thread.

Thanks!
 
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