Confirmed with Link: Sabres re-sign Dahlin 8 years $88 million ($11 million AAV)

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Moreover, there is ample evidence the front-loaded time-value of money argument DOESN'T factor into more than a very small percentage of contract negotiations, given both the absence of disproportionate bonus-to-in-season-salary ratio deals, and the sheer quantity of level-loaded actual-annual-salary deals. If anything, the trend, on shorter-term, smaller-dollar veteran contracts (think Girgensons-type players, is to a small annual increase in actual salary, vs. the opposite model.
Pegula's relationship to when and how he likes to spend cash is one of the murkiest and least understood parts of his ownership. There is lots of criticism and speculation, but no one really has a handle on this other than his execs.

Fair argument. We only have what he has said publicly and contracts that have been signed. I wish we knew more but local media hasn't produced much.

Who needs any in-depth discussion? Let's insult each other's investment portfolios!

You're right. I should not have said that. No excuse. I apologize. But the math is not something I'm making up. I didn't invent inflation. It exists.
 

Old Navy Goat

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Hopefully Dahlin is a smart investor, ie leaves the decisions to professionals but oversees the allocation to ensure there's no hemorrhage of assets. Personally my dividends are doing quite well and my ethereum is up substantially from my purchase price of $47 almost a decade ago

For us normal people we really don't care about the intricacies of front loading to shave a bit off cap, as our concern is how much is the aav so us troglodytes can subtract that from the ceiling to find out how much balance is left.
 

HogtownSabresfan

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Jan 13, 2010
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Moreover, there is ample evidence the front-loaded time-value of money argument DOESN'T factor into more than a very small percentage of contract negotiations, given both the absence of disproportionate bonus-to-in-season-salary ratio deals, and the sheer quantity of level-loaded actual-annual-salary deals. If anything, the trend, on shorter-term, smaller-dollar veteran contracts (think Girgensons-type players, is to a small annual increase in actual salary, vs. the opposite model.

That's the evidence? It costs the other side money, too. It's not a cheap exercise. Ownership has to be willing to pay the price. The cap advantage is small, and it's costly. I can see why teams avoid it.

The shorter deals are examples of other anticipations in the marketplace like the cap going up.

The front-loading of deals is one thing going on in the marketplace. Multiple factors go into any marketplace and any transaction. Including hockey. People keep telling me I never read this blah blah blah... I'm sorry, but Paul Hamilton and Mike Harrington not understanding the complexities of the cap doesn't mean much to me. The coverage I see in local media has become pedestrian. I see better analysis here most days, which is why I'm dismayed this point is argued by some.

As I said elsewhere, it is a minor but very useful advantage, but Sabres can be competitive not playing the game. I also said elsewhere, Pegula clearly was willing to use some front-loading to a degree and I'm mostly 99% satisfied with deals signed this week. It's a relief

These little shenanigans around the structure matter, but there are always going to be other market factors. Frankly, I have no idea how the escrow works, but I read somewhere it is an issue with contract structure -- specifically figuring out timing. I defer to anyone who has studied this.

Overall, the NHL has really moved from some rinky-dink league to a complex structure where teams employ full-time cap experts to look at all this stuff to seek any advantage they can and that includes front-loading.
 

joshjull

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Why not? It's a comparison. Most people just trot out the raw AAV and that doesn't tell nearly the story that percentage of cap does. Making raw dollar comparisons is just less nuanced. Let's use one that's very close: McAvoy's deal, signed about one year by age older than Dahlin, at 11.66%/$9.5M AAV for the same 8 year term and with similar NTC protections (Dahlin has one more full year, starting earlier and no partial at the end like McAvoy does). So if a team is going to value Dahlin a smidge more than McAvoy - and there could be debate based on handedness and actual defensive shutdown ability that there is merit to McAvoy being a more desired commodity - then how do they assign value? They can't use the raw AAV since the overall cap allocation has changed. So they use % of cap as a comp.

Werenski's was similar in age, like McAvoy and Dahlin with a year still remaining on his bridge and goes deeper at 11.76%/$9.583M AAV but for less term (six years) and also a bit less trade protection (a limited NTC in year 6). So Dahlin has more years with full trade protection and I would say has a strong case for being a better player than Werenski and his group likely is use a figure in excess of that value as a point of recompense. They aren't going to use him as a low end comp, so that's up around 12% pretty much right off the bat. They aren't going to ask for this in 2020-21 season dollars ($81.5M), they'll be looking at current and proposed future value. That the league was some up front about growth is cool, taking that into consideration again puts this into the 12.14ish region that seems fair and not outlandish.
My issue is not that it's used for a comparison. It's that it (% of the cap at the time of signing) doesn't tell nearly enough of the story to be used as a direct comparison. There are a variety of reasons why that's the case.

1) An agent isn't going to base his client's future contract on a season it doesn't apply to. He's going to project it forward. % of the cap numbers on CapFriendly are either the year the deal starts or the year before. One matters, one doesn't.

2) GMs and agents are likely to use the range of comparable players as the starting point to guestimate roughly where a player's potential AAV might fall (with projected numbers from coming seasons). In Dahlin's case that range would be about 11% to 14.5%**.

3) RFA vs UFA years. This seems to be overlooked or at least not factored in much. Which surprised me because they've always been big drivers of contract value. Makar is at the AAV and % of the cap he is due, in part, to his contract being 6yrs with 4 RFA vs 2 UFA years.

Makar, Werenski and Fox were likly looking at 10mil to 10.5mil cap hits had they signed for 8yrs. Which is 12.3 to 12.7% of the cap and a very different conversation when comparing it to Dahlin's 8yr deal at 12.6%++.

**I know @Fezzy126 is not a fan of including Doughty/Karlsson and feel they are overpaid. But they matter as examples of max deals (8yrs) for top dmen that are all UFA years. More UFA years than the other comparable players and why they were able to get as much as they did.

4) The NHL's economics improving/changing quite bit from the 2021 offseason to now. Its transitioning away from the relatively flat cap of several years to positive growth (roughly 5% each of the next two years. One of the impacts of that is Dahlin's % of the cap will be dropping quicker over the early years of his contract compared to those signing in 2021.

Dahlin's first 3 seasons will be 12.6%, 12% and likely 11.4 to 11.6% for the 3rd year. Thats about a full 1% drop. By comparison, Makar's first 3 seasons will be 11%, 10.9% and this year is 10.8%. That's barely any change at all. ^^ The differences between 2021 and now becomes clearer on a speculative 8yr at 10mil per deal for Makar. The first 3yrs would be 12.3%,12.1% and 12%.

Its makes comparing 1st year % of the cap not quite as valuable.

I tried a few times to type out a more succinct response and failed. Sorry you get this long post instead. It's not even everything I wanted to cover. :laugh:
 

JLewyB

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I haven’t watched every single minute of every game like i have in the past but this contract looks like a steal to me. He looks like he upped his game in the defensive end like 10 fold. And he was already pretty good.
 

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Dubi Doo

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I can't say I was happy with his play before I stopped watching, and with the team still looking lackluster- I'm assuming his play hasn't improved much.

I believe he's dealing with injuries. I don't love the trend I'm noticing with Dahlin (and others) consistently dealing with injuries that severely hamper their play.

We'll see how this contract ages. It's not encouraging that Dahlin seems to be slipping in his ranking of defensemen. You'd hope to see him trending the other direction given his extension.
 

Chainshot

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I can't say I was happy with his play before I stopped watching, and with the team still looking lackluster- I'm assuming his play hasn't improved much.

I believe he's dealing with injuries. I don't love the trend I'm noticing with Dahlin (and others) consistently dealing with injuries that severely hamper their play.

We'll see how this contract ages. It's not encouraging that Dahlin seems to be slipping in his ranking of defensemen. You'd hope to see him trending the other direction given his extension.

It looks LBI in nature - there is a distinct lack of burst in his skating compared to the last few years. He doesn't have the straight line speed to recover right now.
 
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MOGlLNY

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I can't say I was happy with his play before I stopped watching, and with the team still looking lackluster- I'm assuming his play hasn't improved much.

I believe he's dealing with injuries. I don't love the trend I'm noticing with Dahlin (and others) consistently dealing with injuries that severely hamper their play.

We'll see how this contract ages. It's not encouraging that Dahlin seems to be slipping in his ranking of defensemen. You'd hope to see him trending the other direction given his extension.
One of the few I’m not worried about
 

HOOats

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It looks LBI in nature - there is a distinct lack of burst in his skating compared to the last few years. He doesn't have the straight line speed to recover right now.
I've also been wondering if it isn't core like a sports hernia or groin. He doesn't seem as strong as he has been in the past in addition to the skating.

I'm curious about our strength and conditioning regime lately, in the search for reasons why so many of our guys have shown similar declines this year. I'm sure it's relatively in line with the rest of the league, but man the clips they share of our frail boys doing Pilates. Kind of laughable.

We've had this British rugby doc Ed Gannon heading S&C since 2015 (!) (talk about potentially undeserved tenure). Does anyone have any insight on him besides him almost getting deported over a green card snafu in 2020? The way Vanek, Peters, Rivet, et al talk about the dark days of Doug McKenney, I wonder what it's like in our gym these days.
 
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Chainshot

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I've also been wondering if it isn't core like a sports hernia or groin. He doesn't seem as strong as he has been in the past in addition to the skating.

I'm curious about our strength and conditioning regime lately, in the search for reasons why so many of our guys have shown similar declines this year. I'm sure it's relatively in line with the rest of the league, but man the clips they share of our frail boys doing Pilates. Kind of laughable.

We've had this British rugby doc Ed Gannon heading S&C since 2015 (!) (talk about potentially undeserved tenure). Does anyone have any insight on him besides him almost getting deported over a green card snafu in 2020? The way Vanek, Peters, Rivet, et al talk about the dark days of Doug McKenney, I wonder what it's like in our gym these days.

I'm not sure what the training staff is like now. I know the Sabres had injury issues and the Bills didn't, then they went to see what the Bills were doing and now the Bills are seemingly constantly injured. :biglaugh:

I do wonder at some of the guys summers. I didn't get the impression they were going hard at their training - Dahlin most of all, if my passive-aggressive posts about his vacation photos weren't easy enough to identify, I will fess up to that now. Cozens it feels like went too hard for upper body and he's all out of balance. Krebs neck has disappeared, but he's not really one of the ones I was overly concerned about.

Dahlin has had a couple of maintenance days and the one game he missed with the LBI, Don's comments about something to manage, etc... Groin injury has been what I'm thinking for a bit - watch him and his burst is like seeing someone skate in slush.
 

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