I think my post made it clear that it's his actual play that I'm taking issue with. The comment about #1 overall pick was just to drive the point home that he has plenty of talent, but only really shows flashes of it every once in a while. He is a disappointment for sure compared to other #1 overalls, but for this team, having McDavid means that RNH doesn't necessarily need to live up his draft hype, he just has to be an effective enough offensive player to look dangerous more than every once in a while.
Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '17-18 Season
- Thread starter Bryanbryoil
- Start date
I think my post made it clear that it's his actual play that I'm taking issue with. The comment about #1 overall pick was just to drive the point home that he has plenty of talent, but only really shows flashes of it every once in a while. He is a disappointment for sure compared to other #1 overalls, but for this team, having McDavid means that RNH doesn't necessarily need to live up his draft hype, he just has to be an effective enough offensive player to look dangerous more than every once in a while.
I'm so over Lucic-RNH-Strome.
I feel for RNH, he's definitely playing better this year, but there is zero skill for him to work with on that line. Strome and Lucic have absolutely no creativity and skill that every play just dies.
It's like this line has a script every time they are on the ice:
1) Chip and chase
2) Cycle
3) Lose puck
4) Repeat
I feel for RNH, he's definitely playing better this year, but there is zero skill for him to work with on that line. Strome and Lucic have absolutely no creativity and skill that every play just dies.
It's like this line has a script every time they are on the ice:
1) Chip and chase
2) Cycle
3) Lose puck
4) Repeat
We just need to accept that right now we don't have a 2nd scoring line and there will be stretches where we can't score much. That's just how it's going to be.
And really the 2nd line was incredibly mediocre last year too. RNH has now had a medicore full regular season last year, terrible playoffs, and now has been mediocre in covering for Draisaitl for a short stretch when the team desperately needs him to step up.
RNH is gone after this year, he's pretty much sealed his fate, you can't score a lot in this league if you are relying on the Lucics, RNHs, etc. of the world.
2nd line has to be rebuilt entirely with Draisaitl at center, RNH is gone. We probably will struggle with goal scoring until next year where serious changes can be made.
And really the 2nd line was incredibly mediocre last year too. RNH has now had a medicore full regular season last year, terrible playoffs, and now has been mediocre in covering for Draisaitl for a short stretch when the team desperately needs him to step up.
RNH is gone after this year, he's pretty much sealed his fate, you can't score a lot in this league if you are relying on the Lucics, RNHs, etc. of the world.
2nd line has to be rebuilt entirely with Draisaitl at center, RNH is gone. We probably will struggle with goal scoring until next year where serious changes can be made.
I hate RNH and Lucic as a combination. It didn't work last season and it isn't working now. Unfortunately, until Leon is back, there isn't much else to do there (and even then, MacLellan may just throw Leon back on RW). In an effort to get SOMETHING offensively out of RNH, I'd love for him to play as a winger for a while, but it doesn't seem likely.
I agree with you. RNH hasn't been productive since the end of 2014-15 when Pouliot-RNH-Eberle somehow got on fire late in the season. So pretty much, he doesn't produce much unless he's the #1C, but if he's the #1C, then your team probably isn't going anywhere. Draisaitl should be the long-term 2C for this team's best offensive look.
It's obvious to most that this combo has been awful since being put together yet Mclellan keeps going back to it. It defies logic.
Lucic/Drai has looked very good together for the short time they were put together and again, looked pretty good in preseason yet Mclellan, at the last minute in preseason, went back to old reliable which is stacking the top line and sticking that awful Lucic/RNH combo back together. I didn't get it then and get it even less now.
Watch him stick Drai with McDavid when he returns, send Yamamoto down and we'll be ONCE AGAIN stuck with a top line and absolutely nothing else. Either slot Drai with Lucic and RNH or move RNH to the 3rd line when Drai returns, what's so hard about that?
KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Because they bothed sucked. We tried that line over and over again last year (Poo-RNH-Ebs). They failed. That's on them. Especially in the playoffs ... what a trainwreck.
RNH doesn't play well with anyone. He is a shell of his former self creatively, that's all there is to it.
Asiaoil
Vperod Bizona!
RNH is a 7 year vet now and with Drai out his secondary scoring is critical. He's sh**ting the bed. In today's CoH you can see that Staples has RNH pegged at 0.54 "Grade A" scoring chances per 60 this season which is 4th line material. It completely supports my position. RNH has been awful in terms of creating dangerous scoring chances which is what I've been saying in this thread. You can see it by simply watching the game and you can confirm it by looking at game flow and recording events if you choose. Abstract stats like shooting location are barren in terms of supporting data and hide as much as they reveal. The play in question in Philly is an example of a specific unacceptable behavior.
But the main point is that RNH is contributing little himself and not providing any real support for his linemates. The guy now appears to kill the offense of anyone he touches. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that any offense he did create was formed on the back of Hall who is one of the few guys RNH appeared to play well with. But Hall drove that relationship pretty much entirely. The heat is on RNH to perform and he's wilting which doesn't surprise me as he's never upped his game when required (that would be now with Drai out). The words "RNH carries Oilers to victory" are not commonly written.
I thought he may may last the season and hoped to see him play hard and up his trade value, but his weak performance and lack of leadership with Drai out leads me to think that we should deal him now. It's going to be pretty hard watching him put in such weak efforts night after night.
Hall carried Eberle and RNH here for large stretches IMO, I think that's fairly obvious now.
They had one good stretch with Pouliot away from Hall but that's about all they have to show for 6-7 years here.
It was even evident early on, I remember Hall missed a couple of games and we were all hyped about a rookie RNH, and I remember the game was in Calgary and RNH-Eberle generated *nothing* that game by themselves and we all tried to laugh it off like "well it was just a bad game", when really it was a sign of things to come. I always remember that game.
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KeithIsActuallyBad
You thrust your pelvis, huh!
Fourier
Registered User
Do you also remember the game vs Calgary in his rookie season where the combination of RNH and Eberle scored three all three goals (Nige had 2) at ES in a 3-1 win playing with a combination of Teemu Hartikainen and Ryan Jones? Nuge had 6 shots and Eberle had 3 of the teams 25. Taylor Hall played 39 seconds of that game.
It is perfectly reasonable to say that he and his line need to score more. For the record I 100% agree with this. And I agree with Asia that he needs to be more aggressive and rediscover his creativity. But these kind of posts are revisionist history at best. In reality of all of the years that Nuge played with Hall he personally put up points at a greater rate away from Hall than he did with Hall in all but one of those years.
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We're well passed the "asking their line to score more".
The second line are what they are. They can't score reliably. You cannot ask them to step up in key situations. It's asking for too much. We just need to accept that. They can't do it, and continually asking them to do it basically becomes unfair. It's asking a fat kid to go fly up 18 flights of stairs, it's not happening.
RNH's not "rediscovering" anything. This is not a slump. Slump's don't last 3 years. This who RNH is now, and this who Lucic is now and Eberle is what he is too. Need to simply accept that.
The only determination we have now is whether they are part of the core here going forward and I would say that is a pretty resounding no barring a miracle at this point.
We are a one line team until Yamamoto/Puljujarvi develop a bit more and we can afford to play McDavid without Draisaitl. That's just how it's going to be.
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Do you have a link for those stats? Since stats.hockeyanalysis shut down I haven't been able to find those kinds of numbers for players. I've always found WOWY stats interesting.
Fourier
Registered User
I wish I did. I posted these numbers multiple times on HF but with the change in the forum and all of the purging this is now gone. His goal scoring rate was about the same wow Hall. It was his assist rate that went up a fair bit without Hall. So you can take my word for it or not because stats.hockeyanalysis was my source.
Well I mean rookie RNH was a hell of a player, but that player is pretty much gone. This is a tough league, to be a great player you don't just get it by talent, I think it takes tremendous mental focus and attitude to be great in this league. And some player's just don't have that desire. I don't think RNH does.
You can't teach heart or fire. You either have that or you don't. He was playing excited as a rookie here, but somewhere along the line the losing wore him down and he never developed a fight-back mechanism mentally in himself.
So he doesn't have that now, and we can't expect him to do anything really when the team is sliding. It's just not in RNH to step up and do something about it. Too hard.
Hockey is a tough game, even if you're skilled, it's a game where you can go for games at a time without getting a sniff or lose on flukey bounces. It can break you mentally. In basketball if you are a skilled player, you are going to get your touches no matter what. Same with football. But hockey ... if you have to work hard just to even get the puck on a shift.
You can't teach heart or fire. You either have that or you don't. He was playing excited as a rookie here, but somewhere along the line the losing wore him down and he never developed a fight-back mechanism mentally in himself.
So he doesn't have that now, and we can't expect him to do anything really when the team is sliding. It's just not in RNH to step up and do something about it. Too hard.
Hockey is a tough game, even if you're skilled, it's a game where you can go for games at a time without getting a sniff or lose on flukey bounces. It can break you mentally. In basketball if you are a skilled player, you are going to get your touches no matter what. Same with football. But hockey ... if you have to work hard just to even get the puck on a shift.
Yeah I wish we could find out old posts through the search function. They still seem to be here, but the search only seems to work for posts that were made since the update? Not sure.
I only asked, because I feel like I remember posting myself stats which showed RNH with Hall and without Hall saw his on ice effectiveness drop by a very significant amount when he wasn't on a line with Hall. My recollection and yours seem to contradict each other.
He was great as a rookie, but I wonder now how much of his rookie season was a bit of a fluke and based on him playing with a lot of enthusiasm and also teams not really having scouted his tendencies that well.
It really is bizarre for a player to go from that ... to what he is now.
It really is bizarre for a player to go from that ... to what he is now.
Fourier
Registered User
The second line did score for about 30 games last year in a key part of the year. Two years before that the line with Pouliot was very effective once Eakins was gone. Even in McDavid's first year Nuge scored at a 50 point pace while healthy. So the 3 year slump is really about 50 games last year and about 4 games this year plus of course the playoffs which was a big issue. But I agree that this is not a highly talented offensive team beyond a few players. As much as Eberle was an issue he was able to consistently put up points even without Hall. But the rest of his game and his salary got him a ticket out. A similar fate could well be in store for Nuge. The difference is that the coach of the Oilers seems to value the way Nuge plays more than the way Eberle did so who knows.
As far as rediscover part I think it is reasonable to suggest that in his rookie year Nuge showed all kinds of creativity. So its not like was never there. And this is not about Hall since a lot of his success early in his career was not with Hall. In particular in his Rookie year Hall had points on 15 of the 52 goals Nuge was in on.
We've gone from asking this line to score (regular season last year)
To pleading with them to score (round 1 playoffs)
To begging them to score (round 2 playoffs)
I think it just is what it is now. RNH-Lucic-whoever simply can't do it. We just need to accept that. They cannot get it done, there are a myriad of reasons/excuses why, but the bottom line is they can't do it.
They cannot carry any real responsibility for this team. Rookie RNH is 7 seasons past now, we just need to let it go.
The losing years + getting paid so much money just created a tremendous apathy in a lot of our players, Taylor Hall has been able to fight himself out of the funk but only because of the three we know he always had the most fire (too much of it at times). So that isn't terribly surprising.
Fourier
Registered User
The team scored at a higher absolute rate with all three on at the same time. But Nuge and Eberle did not in terms of individual points. Nuge's individual assist rate was often much higher without Hall because when Hall was not on the line Nuge had the puck a lot more. Nuge's best periods offensively were in fact in his first year without Hall and in the last 2/3 of the year Eakins got fired. Again without Hall.
You won't find me arguing that Hall was not a guy who could create goals. At his best he generates scoring chances like few others. Hall's problem was that his style of play often treated offense as the only thing that mattered. So someone else had to take care of the other end while Hall was doing his thing.
Asiaoil
Vperod Bizona!
Constantly bringing up RNH's rookie year is not really relevant at this point is it? He simply isn't a very impactful player to the team as is and that's not good with him being paid $6 million a year. His totally unearned 2nd contract is likely the issue as he does not appear to have enough self-motivation and fire to excel. He's well-paid, financially set for life, comfortable and appears unwilling to pay the necessary price to excel as an elite player on a good NHL team. That's the issue. He is what he is and that's unlikely to change after 7 years.
Fourier
Registered User
I have no qualms with people wanting more. But in reality the Oilers secondary scoring depth was actually above average last year. In a league that has been very much a 3-2 league secondary scoring is absent from most teams. This is why when top players go into slumps you hear exactly the same complaints from about 80%+ of the teams. In particular the Oiler's second pp unit actually played very little but scored at a rate that was average or better a typical first unit.
So it isn't as much of a revisionist history that Hall "carried" Nuge and Eberle as you suggest it is. The team performed better when Nuge was with Hall than when Nuge was without Hall. That falls in line with the stats I can vaguely remember.
But whatever. It's not an issue anymore in the sense that Hall isn't here. So whether he carried Nuge or not is sort of irrelevant. What is relevant is what Nuge is doing now... which isn't much. And it wasn't much last year, and it wasn't much the season before that.
Fourier
Registered User
The reference to his first year was in response to Soundwave's suggestion that he never was creative and that even his early success was simply due to Hall. I also do not believe this has anything to do with not being willing to pay the price. Every coach he has had has praised his effort defensively which in today's game is really where "paying the price" gets it main weight. Nr do I buy that he is somehow unwilling to go into the tough areas or that he is afraid.
For whatever reason we have a player that has lost something he had. I can't say with any certainty that he will find those parts of his game. If he doesn't he'll be gone.
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