Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[tarheelhockey]

Good observation about Chara's injuries. I had forgotten them but indeed he appeared to be playing one-armed at times.

 

[tony d]

Chara's been an amazing defenseman during his career. His size certainly plays a factor but I think he's smart enough to be a good defenseman even if he was the size of an average hockey player. I think he'll be known as one of this generation's best defenseman.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Good summary of Chara's regular season performance.

At one point, Chara had a reputation as a poor playoff performer. iMO, much of his poor performance was because he played through injuries. In 2006, he broke his hand on Eric Cairns' face with a month to go in the regular season. He came back before the playoffs, but had some trouble handling the puck still. In 2008, he injured his shoulder with a month to go in the season. It visibly hampered him in the playoffs, and he had surgery for a torn labrum after the season.

2011 obviously gave a major boost playoff reputation.

Chara's superior PP performance in 2008-09 as compared to later seasons may have something to do with 2008-09 having been Marc Savard's last full season. Boston has missed Savard on the power play, as they haven't really had anyone to replace him as the main playmaker. Chara is a complementary player on the PP, he needs someone else to be the quarterback/playmaker.

If Montreal scores in OT of game 7 off a horrible giveaway by Chara right in front of his own net (which did happen), he'd still have that rep.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Jacques Laperriere

Looks good for Laperriere this time, yet I get the feeling he still doesn't get enough recognition for his record. Even though Canadiens1958 (one who might know) stated J.C. Tremblay was not on the same level as Laperriere, Tremblay finished ahead of him in the voting.

It should be noted that Laperriere was most likely the mentor for Savard, Lapointe & Robinson. Considering he was an asistant coach in the NHL for 22 years (mostly with Montreal) I would guess he was mainly a teacher for young defensemen.
Once again, when he played at the same time as Savard (7 seasons) their numbers were very similar, with perhaps a slight edge to Laperriere.

Also should be noted that between 1969-75, Bobby Orr led the league in +/- except for the year Laperriere won (1973).

And yes, I am shamelessly campaigning for Laperriere.

Do not recall J.C. Tremblay mentoring young defensemen in Montreal. Laperruere would be paired with rookies fairly often. Excellent coach and a stabilizing factor on defence.

 

[Dreakmur]

I have read a lot of articles from the period over the past year, and you can find references to four players being called the "best player in the world." Frank McGee, the all-round center for the Ottawa Silver Seven. Tommy Phillips, the lightning-fast two-way left wing who played in western Ontario. Russell Bowie, the amateur rover/center who was the best goal scorer of the era. And Hod Stuart, the all-round defenseman.

So when you say Stuart was arguably the best player in the world, you are really saying he was one of the best 4 overall players in the world in an era where there wasn't much depth of talent.

The difference though, is that Hod Stuart did his thing for twice as long as both McGee and Phillips. From 1903-06 Frank McGee was his competition, and from 1904-08, Tommy Phillips was. That's only 4 years each. Hod Stuart was great from 1900-07, which is 8 years.

Comparing those guys to Stuart is like comparing Lemieux to Gretzky. If you take a small sample size, they appear equal(ish), but if you look at the whole picture, it's not close. Hod Stuart may have only been equal to those guys, but he was that good for twice as long.

Bowie, in the other hand, was among the best for about the same amount of time as Stuart. That's probably why I have Bowie way ahead of the other two anyway...

Here's Dreakmur's profile of Hod Stuart: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=30991681&postcount=61. It contains some fluff as do most ATD profiles (Hod's bother Bruce thought Hod was the best player in the world... yeah, unbiased source there). But the newspaper clippings in the second half of the profile give a great account of his style of play and how highly regarded he was. My favorite is definitely this one from 1905: "Hod Stuart has been barred from the International Hockey League, the western contingent claiming he won too many championships and that he is too rough. He is one of the best hockey players on this continent."

Bruce Stuart's quite was in there mainly because it ws another reference to Hod's speed

Yeah, I like all the toughness quotes. People seem to think he was soft for some reason.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The difference though, is that Hod Stuart did his thing for twice as long as both McGee and Phillips. From 1903-06 Frank McGee was his competition, and from 1904-08, Tommy Phillips was. That's only 4 years each. Hod Stuart was great from 1900-07, which is 8 years.

Comparing those guys to Stuart is like comparing Lemieux to Gretzky. If you take a small sample size, they appear equal(ish), but if you look at the whole picture, it's not close. Hod Stuart may have only been equal to those guys, but he was that good for twice as long.

Bowie, in the other hand, was among the best for about the same amount of time as Stuart. That's probably why I have Bowie way ahead of the other two anyway...




Bruce Stuart's quite was in there mainly because it ws another reference to Hod's speed

Yeah, I like all the toughness quotes. People seem to think he was soft for some reason.

Was he really considered among the best for 00-07 as was part of that referenced after his death?

Even if he was among the best in the world fro that time period, how many top elite players are we talking about here and over how many leagues were they spread out?

The McLeans article referenced earlier and talking about the 3 all star teams of all time up to that point had Taylor as on the 3rd team as a LW, when many consider him among the all time greats period.

Part of my major problem in evaluating how to rate Hod is how to fairly compare the "comparative value of being the best player in the world over time."

Hod being the best in the 1st decade of the 20th century compared to playing in the last decade of the century or 1st in the 21st.

How do we fairly sort that out?

We can't just say that each decade was the same because we know that they weren't. A decade with maybe a couple 1000 guys playing compared to a decade where there are many thousands over 5 or 6 top countries in the world is where I ponder a guy like Hod to Chara.

It could very well be that Hod really was a generational talent and it could also be true that the competition really was very poor or a combination of both.

Also since I'm a huge career guy I'm not sure what to make of Hod's career since he passed away at 28 compared to Moose Johnson playing for 17 years at a pretty high level as well. Hod has the much better peak for sure but I'm only going to look at his actual career.

Lots of things to consider this round and really wondering how far some of these guys might fall in the end.

 

[Dreakmur]

It could very well be that Hod really was a generational talent and it could also be true that the competition really was very poor or a combination of both.

Add 1,000,000 players to the pool. How many are better than Stuart? Likely none.... maybe a couple. That still puts him in the top few.

The guy was an absolute freak. Huge for his era, but not the least bit clumbsy like the vast majority of big men. The guy was the complete package - a perfect hockey player.

Also since I'm a huge career guy I'm not sure what to make of Hod's career since he passed away at 28 compared to Moose Johnson playing for 17 years at a pretty high level as well. Hod has the much better peak for sure but I'm only going to look at his actual career.

Let's get a grip on this "career" thing. I can understand it for guys who only played a couple years, but Hod Stuart played 9 sesons. 8 of those seasons he was considered one of the best in the world.

To compare, Moose Johnson played 13 years as a defenseman (after 4 as a forward). 8 of those seasons he was among the top defensemen in the the world.

(I'm still not 100% sure what Johnson played in the NHA, but it looks like he was on the blueline by that point.)

 

[Dreakmur]

Was he really considered among the best for 00-07 as was part of that referenced after his death?

I couldn't find many quotes from 1898-1903, so it's tough to tell exactly how he was viewed in that time.

It's a guess based on statistics. He scored 13 goals in 25 games over that time, which includes a top-10 and a near-top-10 in league scoring.

 

[MXD]

If Montreal scores in OT of game 7 off a horrible giveaway by Chara right in front of his own net (which did happen), he'd still have that rep.

The shot actually ended up on the crossbar on ensuing play, unless your talking about another giveaway.


That's the thing with Chara -- the guy is probably the weakest playoff performer in that group.

 

[MXD]

2011 obviously gave a major boost playoff reputation.

Clearly undeserved, if you asked me.

One crossbar away from being out, and some terrible showups.

 

[MXD]

Good observation about Chara's injuries. I had forgotten them but indeed he appeared to be playing one-armed at times.

Who cares?

Except somebody who thinks a 6'9 guy should have a bit more resiliency?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I couldn't find many quotes from 1898-1903, so it's tough to tell exactly how he was viewed in that time.

It's a guess based on statistics. He scored 13 goals in 25 games over that time, which includes a top-10 and a near-top-10 in league scoring.

I have seen quotes in 06 and 07 referring to it but that's one of the problems with older players and a lack of information.

I'm not sure but alot of articles and references seem to infer backwards and perhaps part of it was because of his tragic death.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Add 1,000,000 players to the pool. How many are better than Stuart? Likely none.... maybe a couple. That still puts him in the top few.

The guy was an absolute freak. Huge for his era, but not the least bit clumbsy like the vast majority of big men. The guy was the complete package - a perfect hockey player.



Let's get a grip on this "career" thing. I can understand it for guys who only played a couple years, but Hod Stuart played 9 sesons. 8 of those seasons he was considered one of the best in the world.

To compare, Moose Johnson played 13 years as a defenseman (after 4 as a forward). 8 of those seasons he was among the top defensemen in the the world.

(I'm still not 100% sure what Johnson played in the NHA, but it looks like he was on the blueline by that point.)

It would be easier to evaluate him if those million people were playing back then and he was a freak, in the good sense of the word, but much like Kasatonov the era in question does raise major questions for me and probably a few other voters as well perhaps.

The success of a small market team like Rat Portage Thistles does raise the question as to the quality of the competition back then perhaps it's unfair to Hod in that we don't have a complete picture of the times but honestly I'm struggling how to rate him over some of the other guys already up in this round

My preference was to have a pre and post WW2 rankings but I'm going to need to find a way to fairly compare a guy like Stuart and Chara

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who cares?

People who want to know the whole story?

Except somebody who thinks a 6'9 guy should have a bit more resiliency?

Do broken hands work differently for tall people?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Montreal had had Chara's number for whatever reason for basically his whole career. Think of how much more highly we'd think of him if it was a lower profile team like Florida that had his number.

 

[Pear Juice]

I probably listed Jan Suchy higher than anyone else. Thing is there isn't really much to say in terms of statistics and awards that hasn't been said numerous times. He dominated the European amateur scene during the late 60s and early 70s. The reason I hold him very highly is from what I hear from people who were around back then. Jan Suchy seems to have been idolized nearly as much in Sweden as in Czechoslovakia. Ask people from back then and they'll say Jan Suchy was something else. Never before seen (at least on this side of the pond.) offensive output and skating ability. Tenacious defense and the sacrifice of his body to cover and block shots. I can't recall having seen any list of Czech hockey players that doesn't list Suchy as their top defenseman.

A couple of years ago I spoke to a personal acquaintance of mine who played on the 1968 Swedish Olympic team. He was convinced that he was playing against one of the best players of all time. He claims that he has still not seen a European hockey player who had such poise, elegance and vision on the ice.

Call it a hunch, or gut feeling. But I think that Jan Suchy's game would translate to virtually any era of hockey, anywhere. His career never got back on the same illustrious track after the car crash that he caused. Who knows what might have transcribed had his car, and consequently his career, taken a different path in 1971. I reckon we'd be talking of him in the same sense as we do Fetisov or Lidström. His career may not live up to the title of 'Europe's Bobby Orr'. But the reason for the title is not his career, but his game. I don't often reside to hunches, but in this case, I am going to list Jan Suchy highly. A truly unique player. Now he doesn't deserve a high rank for what he could have been, he deserves to be considered because of what he was. Czechoslovakias greatest defenseman of all time.

 

[MXD]

People who want to know the whole story?

On-ice results are what matters, no?

I mean.... Some guys would already be in (or should really have been) had injuries/time missed had be considered positively, like you PURPORTS to do with Chara.

 

[tarheelhockey]

On-ice results are what matters, no?

I mean.... Some guys would already be in (or should really have been) had injuries/time missed had be considered positively, like you PURPORTS to do with Chara.

a) Who is considering injuries positively? All anyone did was point out that Chara was literally playing one-handed in a couple of playoffs.

b) You're saying we should ignore reasons that players missed time? Really? Carl Brewer's missed seasons are equal to Jack Stewart's missed season are equal to Bobby Orr's missed seasons, no questions asked?

c) Is this really about Chara, or about someone you think should have been in by now?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If Montreal scores in OT of game 7 off a horrible giveaway by Chara right in front of his own net (which did happen), he'd still have that rep.

Just getting back to this for a second, it's amazing how one single play could alter our perception of a player?

Tim Thomas doesn't bail out Chara in Round 1, and Chara doesn't get a chance to play excellent hockey in the subsequent rounds.

(If Steve Smith didn't put the puck into his own goal in 1986, would the Oilers have won 5 Cups in a row? Would anyone argue against Gretzky as the best player of all time if that happened?)

Clearly undeserved, if you asked me.

One crossbar away from being out, and some terrible showups.

Chara sure turned in it around in later rounds though, right? Ended up leading the playoffs in plus minus, despite having all the tough defensive assignments. I thought he absolutely dominated the finals whenever he was on the ice, though granted, the Sedins aren't exactly playoff warriors themselves.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I couldn't find many quotes from 1898-1903, so it's tough to tell exactly how he was viewed in that time.

It's a guess based on statistics. He scored 13 goals in 25 games over that time, which includes a top-10 and a near-top-10 in league scoring.

We know Hod signed his first professional contract in 1902. His stats are on wikipedia, and his stats in the amateur league before 1902 don't look as good as his stats in the professional league. But maybe the amateur league was just a lower scoring league?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I probably listed Jan Suchy higher than anyone else. Thing is there isn't really much to say in terms of statistics and awards that hasn't been said numerous times. He dominated the European amateur scene during the late 60s and early 70s. The reason I hold him very highly is from what I hear from people who were around back then. Jan Suchy seems to have been idolized nearly as much in Sweden as in Czechoslovakia. Ask people from back then and they'll say Jan Suchy was something else. Never before seen (at least on this side of the pond.) offensive output and skating ability. Tenacious defense and the sacrifice of his body to cover and block shots. I can't recall having seen any list of Czech hockey players that doesn't list Suchy as their top defenseman.

A couple of years ago I spoke to a personal acquaintance of mine who played on the 1968 Swedish Olympic team. He was convinced that he was playing against one of the best players of all time. He claims that he has still not seen a European hockey player who had such poise, elegance and vision on the ice.

Call it a hunch, or gut feeling. But I think that Jan Suchy's game would translate to virtually any era of hockey, anywhere. His career never got back on the same illustrious track after the car crash that he caused. Who knows what might have transcribed had his car, and consequently his career, taken a different path in 1971. I reckon we'd be talking of him in the same sense as we do Fetisov or Lidström. His career may not live up to the title of 'Europe's Bobby Orr'. But the reason for the title is not his career, but his game. I don't often reside to hunches, but in this case, I am going to list Jan Suchy highly. A truly unique player. Now he doesn't deserve a high rank for what he could have been, he deserves to be considered because of what he was. Czechoslovakias greatest defenseman of all time.

My problem with Suchy is just how short a period of time he was on top. He does his thing for even 6 years, and I would probably rank him right next to Hod Stuart, which means near the top of my list this round. But it's hard to do when his time as an effective player was just so short.

Edit: I tried exploring this further in a later post, and Suchy's longevity isn't as bad as I thought, though his prime is still quite short.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just getting back to this for a second, it's amazing how one single play could alter our perception of a player?

Tim Thomas doesn't bail out Chara in Round 1, and Chara doesn't get a chance to play excellent hockey in the subsequent rounds.

Hell, if Michael Ryder doesn't make a diving glove save in Game 7 OT we might have Roberto Luongo, Conn Smythe winner, instead of Tim Thomas, Conn Smythe winner.

Think about how much THAT would alter the generational goalie discussion.

I think we need to be real careful about going down this path.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jan Suchy

Golden Hockey Stick voting for best player in Czechoslovakia existed since 1969

Suchy finished:

1st in 1969 at the age of 25.
1st in 1970
2nd in 1971 to fellow defenseman Frantisek Pospisil (who IMO is a top 60 defenseman of alltime)

Suchy would never finish top 10 in voting again. 1971 was the year of his car accident (not sure if he got in the accident after the season or during the season)

To me, the real question is: How good was Suchy before 1969?

These are his international awards:

IIHF Best Defenseman (1969, 1971)
WC All Star (1968, 1969, 1970, 1971)

So Suchy probably started to peak in 1968.

Here is a profile of Suchy by Patrick Houda: http://www.1972summitseries.com/othersuchy.html

During his 16 seasons in the Czech league, Suchy racked up 162 goals in 562 games, which made him the highest scoring defenseman in Czechoslovakian league history. He won the league title 7 times (1967-72 and 74).

So it would appear that while Suchy's peak probably only lasted 4 years (1968-1971), he was a useful player outside this time. On the other hand, while Suchy was 1st in Czech league scoring in 1969 and 3rd in 1970, those are the only seasons he was in the top 7 in overall scoring. Source: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=639099

It should be noted that Suchy only played on the Czech national team once after 1971 - in 1973. Not sure if that's because he was no longer good enough, or if it was punishment for the car accident.

For anyone wondering if Suchy was considered NHL-worthy:

Another interesting tidbit - Suchy was the first European star to be placed under a NHL protected list when the Boston Bruins claimed him as their prospect.

 

[overpass]

Whatever you think about Chara's 2011 playoffs, his overall playoff record is mixed at best. The important question is how does his playoff/big game record compare to other eligible defencemen?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Whatever you think about Chara's 2011 playoffs, his overall playoff record is mixed at best. The important question is how does his playoff/big game record compare to other eligible defencemen?

Definitely worse than Ching Johnson, who has a very similar regular season record to Chara. So I'm planning on ranking Chara a bit behind Ching (who is a serious candidate for #1 this round).