Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just out of curiosity, how many players have ever had a 33 point playoff?

10.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Coffey, Bossy, Sakic, Leetch, Recchi, Gilmour, Malkin.

Should be noted Middleton's team didn't get to the finals that season so he only played in 17 games.

 

[MXD]

What Niedermayer was it? Was it before or after Rob plastered Peter Forsberg with a dangerous hit to the boards in some World Championship?

Sorry, but... I don't get your post.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Sorry, but... I don't get your post.

Allready answered.

 

[MXD]

Middleton -- if you take out the huge outlier that '83 was, you're possibly looking at the worst playoff resume you'll get in this very project, save for Kovalchuk.

On one hand, I'm not sure if it's okay to do that, and it's not like Middleton only play on one side of the redline, so it's not like he was not contributing.

On the other hand, I'm unsure if the Adams factor relied upon for Goulet can be applied as much to Middleton, since the 80'ies Adams division really took shope right in the middle of his career (as opposed to Goulet).

In the end, Middleton definitely is a Top-10 player in that group, though that probably hinges one some players that should be up for voting (but aren't).

 

[MXD]

Allready answered.

What I meant was I didn't know why you asked that question.
But I just woke up, so...

 

[Pominville Knows]

What I meant was I didn't know why you asked that question.
But I just woke up, so...

Touché on that one! I see that i quoted the wrong post. It was The Edlers just above yours that i aimed for but i terribly missed the target.

 

[MXD]

Touché on that one! I see that i quoted the wrong post. It was The Edlers just above yours that i aimed for but i terribly missed the target.

Yeah, wanted to shoot on Nidermayer and hit Travis Moen instead. Got it

 

[MXD]

Reasoning

- I started this round with Balderis comfortably out of the Top-10, and now I'm not so sure. He really has to be behind Yakushev, but the gap isn't huge, and whereas I saw Yakushev as a Middle-10 player at first, well, the more it goes, the more I realize that he's an upper-tier candidate in that group. By transitive properties, that bumps Balderis a bit, especially with some not-that impressive players at the bottom.

- For O-6-and-before players (who might also have been the least "gifted" players, as I'm not sure "worse offensively" is the right word here), it's probably something like Pitre > Olmstead >>> Noble. I said Noble was a viable candidate for Top-10 in that group, and I still think it's the case... Just not in mine. If I would bother ranking them, he's probably 11th, in the best case scenario. Notice no Drillon here -- because he just really doesn't fit in that group. Common sense would dictate below Pitre (and... probably... above Olmstead), but I'm really not sure. Having him that much ahead of Kovalchuk wouldn't make much sense, but having him that much below Sweeney Schriner (who, I think, went in a wee bit too early) wouldn't be acceptable either.

- Cournoyer > Gilbert. Actually, it's really about time for Cournoyer. As for Gilbert.... Kinda wondering. He got some good end-season finishes during the O-6 (meaning that it's not Expansion/WHA Purge related), but on the other hand... I'm not sure his O-6 finishes are better than Claude Provost. Yeah, I know, that can be explained by age and injury, but still... My wish is that Gilbert doesn't make it 'til Provost is available. But then again, if the future is anything like the past, Provost might never become available, and Gilbert wouldn't even look bad if he gets in this round, let alone next round.

- Then, it's something like
Leclair > Neely > Middleton > Fleury => Alfreddsson > Kovalchuk.

Yeah, I spent a part of the morning browsing for stuff on Fleury which made me pull him down a bit. Kovalchuk MIGHT make my Top-10 in the very last round of the project, depending on how many new players make it (provided they're the good ones). I'm strongly with Dennis here. I really don't care much about Blandaniel Alboreddsson and I'm perfectly fine with that.

_____________

Wishlist : Paul Thompson, Bob Gainey, Claude Provost, Cecil Dillon. Alternately, Markus Naslund.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

- I started this round with Balderis comfortably out of the Top-10, and now I'm not so sure. He really has to be behind Yakushev, but the gap isn't huge, and whereas I saw Yakushev as a Middle-10 player at first, well, the more it goes, the more I realize that he's an upper-tier candidate in that group. By transitive properties, that bumps Balderis a bit, especially with some not-that impressive players at the bottom.

- For O-6-and-before players (who might also have been the least "gifted" players, as I'm not sure "worse offensively" is the right word here), it's probably something like Pitre > Olmstead >>> Noble. I said Noble was a viable candidate for Top-10 in that group, and I still think it's the case... Just not in mine. If I would bother ranking them, he's probably 11th, in the best case scenario. Notice no Drillon here -- because he just really doesn't fit in that group. Common sense would dictate below Pitre (and... probably... above Olmstead), but I'm really not sure. Having him that much ahead of Kovalchuk wouldn't make much sense, but having him that much below Sweeney Schriner (who, I think, went in a wee bit too early) wouldn't be acceptable either.

- Cournoyer > Gilbert. Actually, it's really about time for Cournoyer. As for Gilbert.... Kinda wondering. He got some good end-season finishes during the O-6 (meaning that it's not Expansion/WHA Purge related), but on the other hand... I'm not sure his O-6 finishes are better than Claude Provost. Yeah, I know, that can be explained by age and injury, but still... My wish is that Gilbert doesn't make it 'til Provost is available. But then again, if the future is anything like the past, Provost might never become available, and Gilbert wouldn't even look bad if he gets in this round, let alone next round.

- Then, it's something like
Leclair > Neely > Middleton > Fleury => Alfreddsson > Kovalchuk.

Yeah, I spent a part of the morning browsing for stuff on Fleury which made me pull him down a bit. Kovalchuk MIGHT make my Top-10 in the very last round of the project, depending on how many new players make it (provided they're the good ones). I'm strongly with Dennis here. I really don't care much about Blandaniel Alboreddsson and I'm perfectly fine with that.

_____________

Wishlist : Paul Thompson, Bob Gainey, Claude Provost, Cecil Dillon. Alternately, Markus Naslund.

Looks good to me at the bottom there(but Leclair would be higher).

Wishlist: Rick Martin & Sid Smith

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Middleton -- if you take out the huge outlier that '83 was, you're possibly looking at the worst playoff resume you'll get in this very project, save for Kovalchuk.

On one hand, I'm not sure if it's okay to do that, and it's not like Middleton only play on one side of the redline, so it's not like he was not contributing.

On the other hand, I'm unsure if the Adams factor relied upon for Goulet can be applied as much to Middleton, since the 80'ies Adams division really took shope right in the middle of his career (as opposed to Goulet).

In the end, Middleton definitely is a Top-10 player in that group, though that probably hinges one some players that should be up for voting (but aren't).

Take out Leclair's best playoff season and compare it to Middleton's.

Or Olmstead's.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not that I think ignoring banner playoff runs is a good method, but if you ignore Olmstead's best playoff he scored only 12 career goals in 110 games.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Take out Leclair's best playoff season and compare it to Middleton's.

Or Olmstead's.

I agree at least shifty was one of the guys on those Boston teams some years, had a very important role on his team and was in the front seat in terms of driving it at times.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Voted and guys 1-6 could have been in any order in terms of strong arguments.

Even a couple of Russians could be slotted in there as well but too many really strong NHL resumes to play the what if game for me this round.

Looking forward to some new players to discuss, although I have a feeling it's going to be a blah new group with many warts next round.

Also I'm not a huge fan of either guy but is either Canuck Hart winning winger going to come up at some point?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

- I started this round with Balderis comfortably out of the Top-10, and now I'm not so sure. He really has to be behind Yakushev, but the gap isn't huge, and whereas I saw Yakushev as a Middle-10 player at first, well, the more it goes, the more I realize that he's an upper-tier candidate in that group. By transitive properties, that bumps Balderis a bit, especially with some not-that impressive players at the bottom.

- For O-6-and-before players (who might also have been the least "gifted" players, as I'm not sure "worse offensively" is the right word here), it's probably something like Pitre > Olmstead >>> Noble. I said Noble was a viable candidate for Top-10 in that group, and I still think it's the case... Just not in mine. If I would bother ranking them, he's probably 11th, in the best case scenario. Notice no Drillon here -- because he just really doesn't fit in that group. Common sense would dictate below Pitre (and... probably... above Olmstead), but I'm really not sure. Having him that much ahead of Kovalchuk wouldn't make much sense, but having him that much below Sweeney Schriner (who, I think, went in a wee bit too early) wouldn't be acceptable either.

- Cournoyer > Gilbert. Actually, it's really about time for Cournoyer. As for Gilbert.... Kinda wondering. He got some good end-season finishes during the O-6 (meaning that it's not Expansion/WHA Purge related), but on the other hand... I'm not sure his O-6 finishes are better than Claude Provost. Yeah, I know, that can be explained by age and injury, but still... My wish is that Gilbert doesn't make it 'til Provost is available. But then again, if the future is anything like the past, Provost might never become available, and Gilbert wouldn't even look bad if he gets in this round, let alone next round.

- Then, it's something like
Leclair > Neely > Middleton > Fleury => Alfreddsson > Kovalchuk.

Yeah, I spent a part of the morning browsing for stuff on Fleury which made me pull him down a bit. Kovalchuk MIGHT make my Top-10 in the very last round of the project, depending on how many new players make it (provided they're the good ones). I'm strongly with Dennis here. I really don't care much about Blandaniel Alboreddsson and I'm perfectly fine with that.

_____________

Wishlist : Paul Thompson, Bob Gainey, Claude Provost, Cecil Dillon. Alternately, Markus Naslund.

Regular season only, I agree. But don't forget Drillon's outstanding playoff numbers. Led the playoffs in goals twice, points once. Retired all-time leading scorer in playoff points by a small margin and in playoff goals by a huge margin. Awarded a Retro Conn Smythe by the SIHR/HHOF committee in a losing cause. Most of this under Dick Irvin, a much more offense-friendly coach than Hap Day. Note that after Day and Toronto traded Drillon to Montreal, he rejoined his old coach and had one last great playoff series in 1943 (4 goals and 6 points in 5 games was outstanding in this low scoring era).

 

[unknown33]

Also I'm not a huge fan of either guy but is either Canuck Hart winning winger going to come up at some point?

I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

Well played

 

[MXD]

Take out Leclair's best playoff season and compare it to Middleton's.

Or Olmstead's.

Not that I think ignoring banner playoff runs is a good method, but if you ignore Olmstead's best playoff he scored only 12 career goals in 110 games.

If anything, it was just a reminder that 1/3 of Middleton's playoff production came during one year. The raw figure (100 in 117) isn't anything special, and it's not an otherwise unexplainable spike either. It's not bad or good. And then again, Middleton played a very, very good part of his playoffs games solely against Adams team.

I agree at least shifty was one of the guys on those Boston teams some years, had a very important role on his team and was in the front seat in terms of driving it at times.

Let's see it this way : If Bert Olmstead was driving the Habs team, he should have been voted in 4 or 5 rounds ago.

PLAYERS AT THIS POINT AREN'T AS GOOD AS JEAN BÉLIVEAU, MAURICE RICHARD AND BILL COOK

I think it was obvious, but apparently, it isn't.


Again, this is probably the first time in this project that a player is downgraded for setting a record.

 

[MXD]

Looks good to me at the bottom there(but Leclair would be higher).

It's actually not the bottom -- they're grouped by era. The only player I'm 100% sure I'm ranking ahead of Leclair is Cournoyer.

 

[tarheelhockey]

He really has to be behind Yakushev, but the gap isn't huge, and whereas I saw Yakushev as a Middle-10 player at first, well, the more it goes, the more I realize that he's an upper-tier candidate in that group. By transitive properties, that bumps Balderis a bit, especially with some not-that impressive players at the bottom.

That's pretty much where I am with the two of them.

Something about Balderis failing to thrive on a better team is troublesome. Smells an awful lot like a bad-team scorer.

I wasn't so hot on Yakushev until seeing the contemporary reviews putting him in the league of Hull and Mahovlich. Even though he didn't have the staying power of those guys, it's still high praise to have been pegged at that level at all.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's pretty much where I am with the two of them.

Something about Balderis failing to thrive on a better team is troublesome. Smells an awful lot like a bad-team scorer.

I wasn't so hot on Yakushev until seeing the contemporary reviews putting him in the league of Hull and Mahovlich. Even though he didn't have the staying power of those guys, it's still high praise to have been pegged at that level at all.

I say this as someone who will likely have Yakushev #1 (by the way, I'm not a huge Yak pusher - I wouldn't have had him #1 last round).

Just remember that the contemporary North American reports on Yakushev are going to be largely based off the 72 and 74 Summit Series against NHL and WHA players, respectively. If Yakushev has the best two tournaments of his career in the World Championships, then he isn't thought of nearly as highly by North Americans. Not that he was bad in the WCs it's just that his best moments seem to have been against against Canada. Of course that means that Yakuhsev is the Soviet who, more than any other, seemed to thrive against NHL/WHA competition.

 

[Captain Bowie]

- I started this round with Balderis comfortably out of the Top-10, and now I'm not so sure. He really has to be behind Yakushev, but the gap isn't huge, and whereas I saw Yakushev as a Middle-10 player at first, well, the more it goes, the more I realize that he's an upper-tier candidate in that group. By transitive properties, that bumps Balderis a bit, especially with some not-that impressive players at the bottom.

- For O-6-and-before players (who might also have been the least "gifted" players, as I'm not sure "worse offensively" is the right word here), it's probably something like Pitre > Olmstead >>> Noble. I said Noble was a viable candidate for Top-10 in that group, and I still think it's the case... Just not in mine. If I would bother ranking them, he's probably 11th, in the best case scenario. Notice no Drillon here -- because he just really doesn't fit in that group. Common sense would dictate below Pitre (and... probably... above Olmstead), but I'm really not sure. Having him that much ahead of Kovalchuk wouldn't make much sense, but having him that much below Sweeney Schriner (who, I think, went in a wee bit too early) wouldn't be acceptable either.

- Cournoyer > Gilbert. Actually, it's really about time for Cournoyer. As for Gilbert.... Kinda wondering. He got some good end-season finishes during the O-6 (meaning that it's not Expansion/WHA Purge related), but on the other hand... I'm not sure his O-6 finishes are better than Claude Provost. Yeah, I know, that can be explained by age and injury, but still... My wish is that Gilbert doesn't make it 'til Provost is available. But then again, if the future is anything like the past, Provost might never become available, and Gilbert wouldn't even look bad if he gets in this round, let alone next round.

- Then, it's something like
Leclair > Neely > Middleton > Fleury => Alfreddsson > Kovalchuk.

Yeah, I spent a part of the morning browsing for stuff on Fleury which made me pull him down a bit. Kovalchuk MIGHT make my Top-10 in the very last round of the project, depending on how many new players make it (provided they're the good ones). I'm strongly with Dennis here. I really don't care much about Blandaniel Alboreddsson and I'm perfectly fine with that.

_____________

Wishlist : Paul Thompson, Bob Gainey, Claude Provost, Cecil Dillon. Alternately, Markus Naslund.

Yes!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voted

Re-submitted Vote11.

 

[unknown33]

Re-submitted Vote11.

Me too, didn't get a confirmation the first time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I always thought of Middleton as an excellent playoff performer because of that one ridiculous season - didn't realize that he was pretty bad outside of that one season.

 

[Theokritos]

Something about Balderis failing to thrive on a better team is troublesome.

On CSKA? It's not like he even wanted to play for them.

Joe Pelletier:

Balderis had no choice in the matter, but he played for the national team [note: CSKA actually] in a curious fashion. He would put on amazing displays of individualistic skills and rushes, almost toying with opposition, but would rarely score. As the great book Kings of the Ice suggests, "it was his way of saying to the authorities, 'You forced me to be here, so you get what you deserve." "I can get away with it on CSKA. If I don't score, Mikhailov, Petrov or Kharlamov will," Balderis added.