Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Wingers)

[unknown33]

Guess you could see everything as arbitrary if one choses to.

I conclude that you will have neither Fleury nor Middleton in your Top 10 either.

 

[Captain Bowie]

If not for the rule changes after the lockout Alfreddson would probably be even less worthy.

Couldn't the same be said for guys whose careers or primes were "extended" because of expansion and diluted talent? This could be said for Bucyk and Mahovlich, if not others, no?

We should probably stick to reality than guessing if this or that didn't happen.

Alfreddson was a very good player, but a one-time 2nd team all-star as a top 50 guy? Not sure Alfreddson will even make my top 10 here.

Alfredsson has something no one else in this round can touch, longevity. He was a good first line player for about 15 years. Most guys available for vote didn't even play that long. The only 2 guys that even played 1000 games this round can make the same claim for about 12 years (Fleury) and 13 years (Gilbert). And without a big advantage in peak or other areas, Alfredsson is ahead of both, and most others this round.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm not sure about that... I feel like fleury was a more highly regarded player throughout his career.... though I'm not saying that's necessarily correct. That's why we're here.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I conclude that you will have neither Fleury nor Middleton in your Top 10 either.

Not in my top 5, anyway.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Couldn't the same be said for guys whose careers or primes were "extended" because of expansion and diluted talent? This could be said for Bucyk and Mahovlich, if not others, no?

We should probably stick to reality than guessing if this or that didn't happen.



Alfredsson has something no one else in this round can touch, longevity. He was a good first line player for about 15 years. Most guys available for vote didn't even play that long. The only 2 guys that even played 1000 games this round can make the same claim for about 12 years (Fleury) and 13 years (Gilbert). And without a big advantage in peak or other areas, Alfredsson is ahead of both, and most others this round.

Bucyk, no question. Went way too early for my liking.

Mahovlich was a 6 time all-star before expansion.

What did happen was Alfreddson had his 3 best offensive years the 3 seasons after the rule changes at ages 33-35. In his first 9 seasons before the lockout, 80 points was his top season.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Bucyk, no question. Went way too early for my liking.

Mahovlich was a 6 time all-star before expansion.

What did happen was Alfreddson had his 3 best offensive years the 3 seasons after the rule changes at ages 33-35. In his first 9 seasons before the lockout, 80 points was his top season.

So your telling me, a player's scoring went up from the dead puck era to the post-lockout era? What a revelation.

In the 3 years before the lockout, 80 points was achieved 26 times. In the three years after? It was done 76 times. This isn't really news that it was easier to score point after the lockout.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So your telling me, a player's scoring went up from the dead puck era to the post-lockout era? What a revelation.

In the 3 years before the lockout, 80 points was achieved 26 times. In the three years after? It was done 76 times. This isn't really news that it was easier to score point after the lockout.

But Alfreddson was 33 after the lockout and had his best finishes compared to the league then.

In his first 9 seasons (pre-lockout) he finished 9th in goals once and 7th in scoring once.

In the 3 years after the lockout, at an advanced age, he finished 9th in goals twice, 8th in assists once and 4th and 9th in points. Also had his only all-star selection and highest Hart finish (5th).

Clearly the rule changes were to Alfreddson's benefit more than to most.

 

[seventieslord]

But Alfreddson was 33 after the lockout and had his best finishes compared to the league then.

In his first 9 seasons (pre-lockout) he finished 9th in goals once and 7th in scoring once.

In the 3 years after the lockout, at an advanced age, he finished 9th in goals twice, 8th in assists once and 4th and 9th in points. Also had his only all-star selection and highest Hart finish (5th).

Clearly the rule changes were to Alfreddson's benefit more than to most.

I think it was linemate quality, more than anything else. And it wasn't exactly a Bucyk situation where superior players boosted his totals (referring to the power play, not his regular linemates). Alfredsson's linemates were about as good as him, but never carried him.

 

[Captain Bowie]

But Alfreddson was 33 after the lockout and had his best finishes compared to the league then.

In his first 9 seasons (pre-lockout) he finished 9th in goals once and 7th in scoring once.

In the 3 years after the lockout, at an advanced age, he finished 9th in goals twice, 8th in assists once and 4th and 9th in points. Also had his only all-star selection and highest Hart finish (5th).

Clearly the rule changes were to Alfreddson's benefit more than to most.

I don't see how any of that can be seen as a knock on him. The rules weren't set for him. He took advantage of them. He should get as much credit for that as any player does at any point of their career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see how any of that can be seen as a knock on him. The rules weren't set for him. He took advantage of them. He should get as much credit for that as any player does at any point of their career.

I think it's a small but valid point - one of the reasons I preferred Hossa over Alfredsson is because Hossa was always strong defensively, while Alfredsson seemed to be more effective defensively after the rule changes. But in terms of scoring, I'm not sure if it's true.

Alfredsson's top 10 finishes:

Points
2003-04 NHL 80 (7)
2005-06 NHL 103 (4)
2007-08 NHL 89 (9)

Goals
2001-02 NHL 37 (9)
2005-06 NHL 43 (9)
2007-08 NHL 40 (9)

Assists
2005-06 NHL 60 (8)

His career year was 2005-06, but 2003-04 was either the 2nd or 3rd best season of his career from an offensive standpoint.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think it was linemate quality, more than anything else. And it wasn't exactly a Bucyk situation where superior players boosted his totals (referring to the power play, not his regular linemates). Alfredsson's linemates were about as good as him, but never carried him.

Agreed, Alfredsson's career spike is not close to Bucyk's, which was a really unique situation.

And playing with Heatly was certainly a factor.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't see how any of that can be seen as a knock on him. The rules weren't set for him. He took advantage of them. He should get as much credit for that as any player does at any point of their career.

Never intended it to be a knock on Alfredsson. Just an observation.

 

[sr edler]

I'm pretty indifferent to Alfredsson. My favorite Alfredsson-moment is when he shot that puck on Niedermayer in the 07 SC finals. Did he ever explain why he did that? If he had a "motive" or not...

 

[MXD]

Fleury and Leclair : Can they be far from each other?

Those are two players I'm conscious I liked quite a bit, so I'm actually trying to push them down to a certain level. I'm having problems getting both out of the Top-5 in this group.

Even if somewhere, it feels early for Fleury.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Fleury and Leclair : Can they be far from each other?

Those are two players I'm conscious I liked quite a bit, so I'm actually trying to push them down to a certain level. I'm having problems getting both out of the Top-5 in this group.

Even if somewhere, it feels early for Fleury.

LeClair is a fair bit better. He was a better goal scorer for longer, and has a FAR better AS record (thought playing opposite wings).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Since it was brought up, here are the all-star records of the post-expansion RWs. Including all seasons when he got more than a trivial number of votes (minimum = 5% of the voting points of the 1st Team All-Star)

Rod Gilbert

3rd in 1965, behind Claude Provost and Gordie Howe
3rd in 1967, behind Ken Wharram and Gordie Howe
2nd in 1968, behind Gordie Howe, ahead of John McKenzie
1st in 1972, ahead of Yvan Cournoyer and Mickey Redmond
6th in 1973, behind Mickey Redmond, Yvan Cournoyer, Jim Pappin, Rene Robert, Bill Flett
3rd in 1975, behind Guy Lafleur and Rene Robert

Yvan Cournoyer

2nd in 1969, behind Gordie Howe, ahead of Ken Hodge
5th in 1970, behind Gordie Howe, John McKenzie, Bill Goldsworthy, Ron Ellis
2nd in 1971, behind Ken Hodge, ahead of John McKenzie
2nd in 1972, behind Rod Gilbert, ahead of Mickey Redmond
2nd in 1973, behind Mickey Redmond, ahead of Jim Pappin
4th in 1975, behind Ken Hodge, Mickey Redmond, Bill Goldsworthy

Certainly not the murderer's row of competition for Gilbert and Cournoyer among RWs, though Hodge and McKenzie had some outstanding point totals that were clearly Orr influenced.

Rick Middleton

4th in 1981, behind Mike Bossy, Dave Taylor, Wayne Babych
2nd in 1982, behind Mike Bossy, ahead of Dino Ciccarelli
3rd in 1983, behind Mike Bossy and Lanny McDonald
3rd in 1984, behind Mike Bossy and Jari Kurri

Middleton's peak was quite short, but it was also pretty strong.

Cam Neely

2nd in 1988, behind Hakan Loob, ahead of Craig Simpson
2nd in 1990, behind Brett Hull, ahead of Stephane Richer
2nd in 1991, behind Brett Hull, ahead of Theo Fleury
2nd in 1994, behind Pavel Bure, ahead of Brett Hull

Theo Fleury

3rd in 1991, behind Brett Hull and Cam Neely
2nd in 1995, behind Jaromir Jagr, ahead of Brett Hull
4th in 1996, behind Jaromir Jagr, Alexander Mogilny, Teemu Selanne
3rd in 1999, behind Jaromir Jagr and Teemu Selanne

I expected Fleury to have more seasons of All-Star consideration, but note that his competition is a lot stronger than that generally faced by Cournoyer, Gilbert, or Neely.

Daniel Alfredsson

4th in 2004, behind Martin St Louis, Jarome Iginla, Marian Hossa
2nd in 2006, behind Jaromir Jagr, ahead of Jonathan Cheechoo
3rd in 2008, behind Jarome Iginla and Alexei Kovalev

Alfredsson got a handful of votes in other years of his career, but I'm surprised by how weak his overall record is. For someone with virtually the same scoring finishes as Marian Hossa and a similar Selke record, Alfredsson has two fewer significant All-Star finishes.

*Marian Hossa

Hossa is already on the list, but I thought it might be helpful to compare him

3rd in 2003, behind Todd Bertuzzi and Milan Hedjuk
3rd in 2004, behind Martin St Louis and Jarome Iginla
3rd in 2007, behind Dany Heatley and Martin St Louis
2nd in 2009, behind Jarome Iginla, ahead of Martin St Louis
4th in 2012, behind James Neil, Marian Gaborik, Claude Giroux*

*Giroux was 3rd in AS voting for both C and RW and actually played C, so this is basically another 3rd place finish for Hossa if we only count Giroux once.

 

[overpass]

Daniel Alfredsson

4th in 2004, behind Martin St Louis, Jarome Iginla, Marian Hossa
2nd in 2006, behind Jaromir Jagr, ahead of Jonathan Cheechoo
3rd in 2008, behind Jarome Iginla and Alexei Kovalev

Alfredsson got a handful of votes in other years of his career, but I'm surprised by how weak his overall record is. For someone with virtually the same scoring finishes as Marian Hossa and a similar Selke record, Alfredsson has two fewer significant All-Star finishes.

After his rookie season, Alfredsson never played 82 games in a regular season again. In his prime from 1999-2000 through 2007-08, he usually missed 5-10 games each regular season. That hurt his chances of getting regular season accolades.

In 2003-04, he probably finished 4th behind Hossa because he missed 4 games and scored 2 fewer points than Hossa.

In 2005-06, he missed 5 games but still got more votes than everyone except Jagr, who he wasn't catching that year anyway.

He missed 5 games again in 2006-07. This year is interesting, because his teammate Dany Heatley was the first team all-star at RW, and the top vote-getter among all wingers that year. Now I won't say Alfredsson had the better regular season - this was Heatley's best regular season as a Senator, and Alfredsson had a bit of a slow start to the season playing on the second line. But when they played together in the playoffs, Alfredsson was clearly the better player, and was arguably the best player in the playoffs that year. I don't think all-star voting really captures Alfredsson's 2006-07 when you include the playoffs.

In 2007-08, he probably beats out Jarome Iginla for the first team if he doesn't get hurt and miss 12 games. Even though he did, you could still argue him ahead of Alexei Kovalev for the second team - he outscored Kovalev and was better defensively, although Kovalev got credit for leading a surprise division winner.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bert Olmstead 1958 and Defensively

Earlier in this thread the issues of Bert Olmstead being exposed in the 1958 NHL Intra League Draft and his defensive abilities were raised.

In "The Habs" by Dick Irvin Jr, both issues are addressed.P150-151 it is stated that Bert Olmstead had torn a knee ligament late in the 1958 SC Final against Boston. He finished the series but the prognosis was that he could not skate again. So he was not protected.

Toronto took a chance and with the help of a Toronto doctor, Jim Murray the Leafs were able to coax four seasons out of Olmstead, ailing knee and all.

Various parts of the book discusses Bert Olmstead and his defensive strengths, most notably playing against Gordie Howe with Montreal and Toronto. Highlited is the last game of the 1953 season when Howe was trying to score his fiftieth and Olmstead helped shut him down.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Voted

Voted.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Trying to sort out this ballot...

Post-Expansion

Alfredsson - Very strong longevity, though it's slightly tempered by his being a bit of a late bloomer. Good long prime, but his peak is a little low outside of one season. Good playoff player compared to the field. Excellent intangibles. Good all round candidate here.

Yvan Cournoyer - His length of peak, prime and career are all solid but not remarkable. Decently rounded offensively. Consistently led a good team offensively. VsX tends to underrate him for a couple of reasons. In the below-average realm defensively. Excellent playoff performer. I think we'll be underrating him if he's still around next round.

John Leclair - Short but strong prime; his peak is about as good as anyone's here. I'd like him a lot more if he'd stayed at that level a little longer. Overall career is also short-ish for a modern player. Respectable playoff performer. Brought good intangibles away from the puck, though not elite in that respect. VERY good in international play.

Kovalchuk - The best goal-scorer here, but highly one dimensional. Aside from the token "rounded out his game as he aged", he brings very little away from the puck. Not much of a playmaker either. His prime is respectably long but it's unusual for a modern player's NHL career to be cut so short. He has basically one playoff run worth mentioning, but a good one. I love his goal scoring, but there are huge holes in his portfolio.

Rod Gilbert - Pretty long and consistent career with a somewhat modest peak. Kept up an impressive level of play into his 30s, probably expansion-influenced but still noteworthy. Good in the playoffs but he never had a standout run. If he brought anything defensively, I've never heard it mentioned. He doesn't have glaring flaws but there isn't a lot of sizzle either.

Rick Middleton - Offensively he lacked the pop of the two players below him, but he is perhaps the best defender this this round. Strong intangible value, captain type of player. Had an ordinary career length for a winger of his era, with a long-ish offensive peak and a short-ish prime. Nothing special in the playoffs but he had his moments. Basically a poor man's Alfredsson.

Cam Neely - Great as a per-game goal scorer, but his lack of durability really undermines his big-picture impact. Brought a lot away from the puck, kind of a rich man's Leclair in his prime. Strong intangibles and one of the few heavyweight fighters we've had in this project. Couple of very strong playoff runs. I have him over Fleury largely because his lack of staying power was due to injury rather than character.

Theo Fleury - Very high-peak performer, but he only achieved that peak level in isolated seasons. Otherwise a pretty standard prime for this round. Somewhat short career for a modern player, and it has to be noted that his reasons for burning out early are not good ones. Not a terrible playoff guy, but nothing remarkable outside of an iconic highlight. Tenacious, good away from the puck. The same intangibles that made him a fierce competitor are also major negatives. There's not much you can point to and call an "achievement".


Still sorting out my order for the Europeans and the pre-expansion guys. I feel like Drillon still has awfully large holes for this round, not unlike a Kovalchuk or Neely. But probably closer to Kovalchuk, which would mean top-5 if I don't change my mind. Pretty sure I like Noble and Pitre over Olmstead, but I'm not sure where they relate to Drillon or the rest of the field.

 

[Sadekuuro]

Rick Middleton - Offensively he lacked the pop of the two players below him, but he is perhaps the best defender this this round. Strong intangible value, captain type of player. Had an ordinary career length for a winger of his era, with a long-ish offensive peak and a short-ish prime. Nothing special in the playoffs but he had his moments. Basically a poor man's Alfredsson.

Just out of curiosity, how many players have ever had a 33 point playoff?

 

[ted2019]

Just out of curiosity, how many players have ever had a 33 point playoff?

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Where I'm at now. Subject to change.

1. Yakushev. I feel he had "star power" similar to Krutov, probably not as high a peak (unless you include the 72 and 74 Summit series as "peak"), but with fewer negatives. Definitely a big game player. I wouldn't have necessarily had him higher than this if he appeared earlier, but I think he looks really favorable compared to the rest of these guys.

2. Drillon. Yes he's a limited player, but that's why he's lasted so long. Best scoring prime in the regular season of anyone left. Arguably the best playoff scorer of anyone left (I think Cournoyer can make a case there too). Solid length prime, but then the war came and he never returned, so lacking in career value. Not useful outside the offensive zone. So how much did he help his team? I think he's one player where the All-Star votes are really meaningful - he played in a small league where the voters saw every player quite a few times... and managed to have the best All-Star record of any right wing not yet added to our list (2 1st Teams, 1 2nd Team, 2 "3rd Teams") - to me that's a pretty good answer to the question of "how much did he actually help his team?" And by the way, he was finishing under RWs he outscored in some years, so it isn't like voters only looked at scoring.

3. Cournoyer. Usually overrated, I think he dropped far enough. Pretty strong All-Star record to go along with probably being the best overall playoff performer left (even if he doesn't add D to his scoring, he was captain of multiple Cup winners). Still nothing overly special in the regular season compared to the rest of these guys, but was so good in the playoffs so many times

4. Alfredsson. Not quite as high on him as I was when the round started, but I still think he's the best 2-way player around. Maybe not the best purely defensively, but the best mix.

5. LeClair. Love his overall game. Underrated international performer. I think that once Lindros finally gets added to the HHOF, LeClair will start getting serious talk. Only downside is the relative brevity of his prime due to injuries.

6. Gilbert. I underrated him on my initial list for 2 reasons - I completely missed that he was 3rd in All-Star voting twice before expansion (the "3rd Team All-Stars" were compiled separately for pre- and post-expansion players and it seems like I missed something when I integrated the lists). That gives him a solid All-Star record of 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, albeit against weaker than average competition. And while I didn't appreciate the tone a certain project administrator took with me for not realizing at first that the VsX formula sets benchmarks too high in the early 70s because the Orr Bruins break the system, it is true that that formula would underrate Gilbert's prime somewhat. Strong longevity too. Seems comparable to Alfredsson and Cournoyer for different reasons. Heck, maybe I'm talking myself into having him over LeClair.

7. Pitre. I had him too high on my initial list, but it's time to give him some consideration. Reading anything about the NHA and early NHL era, you get the sense that Pitre had a lot of star power (whereas Noble was more of the "underrated" type, not as much of a star). His offense wasn't so good looking when he first appeared, but it's actually not so bad compared to these guys now. And it's way better than his contemporary Noble's.

8. Theoren Fleury. Sandwiched in between Alfredsson and Kovalchuk seems about right. Might end up with Balderis here.

I'd probably have Balderis 9th and Kovalchuk 10th right now, but that's subject to change. I'd give serious consideration for anyone other than Noble for the last 2 spots if a good argument is made in the next day.

__________

Wish list for next round - Paul Thompson and Cecil Dillon. Would also love a chance to compare Jack Walker to Reg Noble before this thing is up. - seeing how weak Noble's scoring was made the comparison interesting to me

 

[Pominville Knows]

Fleury and Leclair : Can they be far from each other?

Those are two players I'm conscious I liked quite a bit, so I'm actually trying to push them down to a certain level. I'm having problems getting both out of the Top-5 in this group.

Even if somewhere, it feels early for Fleury.

What Niedermayer was it? Was it before or after Rob plastered Peter Forsberg with a dangerous hit to the boards in some World Championship?

 

[sr edler]

It was old-beard Niedermayer.