Round 2, Vote 11 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hardyvan123]

I'm pretty sure they don't exist.

My bad, memory is fading here, should have typed Hart worthy seasons.

Note to self, look up actual winners before posting...lol

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I always thought of Middleton as an excellent playoff performer because of that one ridiculous season - didn't realize that he was pretty bad outside of that one season.

Like I said before, take out anyone's top playoff season this round. Leclair in particular looks worse than Middleton and Olmstead ends up with 12 goals and 33 assists in 105 games.

 

[tarheelhockey]

On CSKA? It's not like he even wanted to play for them.

That does go some way as an explanation, but it introduces a different kind of negative in his legacy.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Let's see it this way : If Bert Olmstead was driving the Habs team, he should have been voted in 4 or 5 rounds ago.

PLAYERS AT THIS POINT AREN'T AS GOOD AS JEAN BÉLIVEAU, MAURICE RICHARD AND BILL COOK

I think it was obvious, but apparently, it isn't.


Again, this is probably the first time in this project that a player is downgraded for setting a record.

It's called context.

We have players available who were driving their teams success and a guy like Olmstead who clearly benefited from his team situation and was in a much different type of position.

Why the reference to the above 3 players BTW?

I made no such assertion

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Like I said before, take out anyone's top playoff season this round. Leclair in particular looks worse than Middleton and Olmstead ends up with 12 goals and 33 assists in 105 games.

LeClair would still had outstanding performances in the 96 World Cup and 02 Olympics. (His 96 WC was more impressive than any playoff he had, I think). But my point was that I never thought of LeClair as a particularly great playoff performer. Whereas "generally awesome in the playoffs" was associated with Middleton's name - something that I think I was wrong on.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's called context.

We have players available who were driving their teams success and a guy like Olmstead who clearly benefited from his team situation and was in a much different type of position.

Why the reference to the above 3 players BTW?

I made no such assertion

Is this a plea to add no more pre-expansion players? Because we are pretty much out of players who "drove the bus" in a 6 team league. Expansion didn't make those players better, did it?

(I doubt I'll have Olmstead in my top 10 this round, but I'm just saying in general).

 

[Theokritos]

That does go some way as an explanation, but it introduces a different kind of negative in his legacy.

Sure, the whole CSKA affair makes Balderis' career very difficult to evaluate.

 

[unknown33]

My bad, memory is fading here, should have typed Hart worthy seasons.

Note to self, look up actual winners before posting...lol

I figured you wanted to typ Lindsay...

 

[MXD]

Voted. Ended up switching Balderis and Olmstead at last second. All of it doesn't matter, as I'm positively convinced it's too early for both.

 

[Sadekuuro]

10.

Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Coffey, Bossy, Sakic, Leetch, Recchi, Gilmour, Malkin.

Should be noted Middleton's team didn't get to the finals that season so he only played in 17 games.

12, actually, including Middleton and Kevin Stevens.

Nifty was good in the playoffs the previous year as well, but yeah, the rest of his postseason résumé is pretty weak.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Is this a plea to add no more pre-expansion players?

No it wouldn't be a plea or even a question, where did you read that into anything I have said in this thread?

Because we are pretty much out of players who "drove the bus" in a 6 team league. Expansion didn't make those players better, did it?

I'm sure there are some non dynasty guys that drove the bus for some teams not up yet and might not even come up from the 06 era but that's not what my observation was about anyways.

(I doubt I'll have Olmstead in my top 10 this round, but I'm just saying in general).

Some have thrown out Olmstead setting a record, it's trivial just like Syd Howe being the leading points when he retired with an increased number of games some guy is going to be that guy along the way.

Trivial is perhaps not the perfect term but it's not like "wow there goes the best play maker ever" when Bert broke that record right?

The fact of the matter is that I threw out the question of whether or not Bert was ever a top 5 guy on his team in any consecutive 2 year run on the Habs.

So far it seems no one has argued otherwise and IMO he is a guy who was helped in his stats, and in that record setting year, by his team conditions.

I make a distinction on guys who drive the bus and guys who are helped along the way, the 06 era and number of teams and competition for various things, like Hart voting, cuts both ways when putting things into context as well.

We do both agree that he isn't a top 10 guy this round.

 

[MXD]

I'm sure there are some non dynasty guys that drove the bus for some teams not up yet and might not even come up from the 06 era but that's not what my observation was about anyways.


Some have thrown out Olmstead setting a record, it's trivial just like Syd Howe being the leading points when he retired with an increased number of games some guy is going to be that guy along the way.

If you are to quote me, why don't you do it directly?

Besides, the "bigger" mention I made of Olmstead record is... about people who are actually holding it AGAINST him. And that's a fact.

I didn't even rank Olmstead this round, by the way.

 

[Hardyvan123]

If you are to quote me, why don't you do it directly?

Besides, the "bigger" mention I made of Olmstead record is... about people who are actually holding it AGAINST him. And that's a fact.

I didn't even rank Olmstead this round, by the way.

I didn't go back to check who was making the argument and didn't want to misquote you.

The assist thing was never brought up by myself first anyways, the bigger problems with his resume are 2 really skeptical Hart finishes and that poor playoff resume as well as a very very short peak.

if the NHL suddenly expanded their season to 100 games and some guy, even a pretty good guy broke some record (let's pretend Wayne and Mario never came along) it wouldn't automatically follow that that guy was an all time elite play maker (let's say the assist leader this year in Voracek or Giroux as examples) would it?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The assist thing was never brought up by myself first anyways, the bigger problems with his resume are 2 really skeptical Hart finishes and that poor playoff resume as well as a very very short peak.

The only one of these "problems" that might actually exist is the playoffs, but it's not like Olmstead was useless when he wasn't scoring goals.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The only one of these "problems" that might actually exist is the playoffs, but it's not like Olmstead was useless when he wasn't scoring goals.

That's true he wasn't useless but why are people bringing up black/white things about players, ie if there is a comment about playoffs then an implication arises?

I don't think anyone has said that any player is useless in this project yet.

Some guys have bigger strengths than others and some skills like scoring are in more demand and shorter supply throughout history.

for example a guy like rick Middleton has a better overall resume because of the things he did away from the puck are probably equal in value to what Bert did and then his offensive resume is just that much better.

 

[MXD]

That's true he wasn't useless but why are people bringing up black/white things about players, ie if there is a comment about playoffs then an implication arises?

I don't think anyone has said that any player is useless in this project yet.

Some guys have bigger strengths than others and some skills like scoring are in more demand and shorter supply throughout history.

for example a guy like rick Middleton has a better overall resume because of the things he did away from the puck are probably equal in value to what Bert did and then his offensive resume is just that much better.

I think I was the first to say that Olmstead's playoffs production were a minus by the way.

And no, Middleton's play without the puck play isn't probably equal. It is assuredly worse (Olmstead's play without the puck might just be the best since... Moore?) Now, Middleton has a slightly better case, due to better real offensive production and purported offensive production (Adams factor), but then again, I could perfectly understand somebody having them the other way around.

As for goalscoring being short in supply, well, goals will occur in any games. The big scorer is a rare thing, but if he costs his team a lot by doing so, well, he's a rare useless commodity, so to speak, and could be replaced by a lesser scorer in some situations.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Voting ends today at 9:00 PM EST. All votes that I have received up to this point have now been sent confirmations.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I figured you wanted to typ Lindsay...

Maybe that's what was at the back of my mind, hard to keep track of all the trophies, I should print out a list of the Lindsay winners maybe.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bert Olmstead

No it wouldn't be a plea or even a question, where did you read that into anything I have said in this thread?



I'm sure there are some non dynasty guys that drove the bus for some teams not up yet and might not even come up from the 06 era but that's not what my observation was about anyways.



Some have thrown out Olmstead setting a record, it's trivial just like Syd Howe being the leading points when he retired with an increased number of games some guy is going to be that guy along the way.

Trivial is perhaps not the perfect term but it's not like "wow there goes the best play maker ever" when Bert broke that record right?

The fact of the matter is that I threw out the question of whether or not Bert was ever a top 5 guy on his team in any consecutive 2 year run on the Habs.

So far it seems no one has argued otherwise and IMO he is a guy who was helped in his stats, and in that record setting year, by his team conditions.

I make a distinction on guys who drive the bus and guys who are helped along the way, the 06 era and number of teams and competition for various things, like Hart voting, cuts both ways when putting things into context as well.

We do both agree that he isn't a top 10 guy this round.

Overlooking the fact that Bert Olmstead created a niche for the hard working corner/board man that has been present in the NHL since the mid fifties. Gordie Howe was the ultimate power forward but Olmstead was the one who took board play to a new level.

Numerous players, post Bert Olmstead replicated his techniques and approach - John Ferguson, Wayne Cashman, Gary Dornhoefer, Terry O'Reilly, Wendal Clark, Rick Tocchet, John Tonelli,and others.