Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

why?

Because 100% of the sources we have consider Suchy better than Ragulin, no question. Suchy, not Ragulin, was the guy being compared to Kharlmov, Mikhailov, etc, by contemporary observers

his norris voting record aside from his win isn't too bad - 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th, only counting years with votes that matter.

Sure, it's a lot better than Randy Carlyle, but compared to the guys available now, that's pretty bad. I think it's an open question whether 9th and 10th place finishes with a handful of votes are meaningful.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Isn't this an awful lot of reliance on a "you either get it or you don't" award? Two defensemen make the all-star team. All the rest don't. The gap you are drawing between the two that do and the rest that don't seems to be massive compared to what we know from actually watching short tournaments.

I think there is a big gap between a guy who won FOUR Straight All Star Teams and a guy who won ZERO when they were all in the their primes in the World Championships together. This isn't a single tournament, it's 4 tournaments in a row when we are talking about Suchy. Not even Vasiliev managed to be an All Star at 4 World Championships in a row (though he managed 5 total).

Especially when the World Championships awards recognition backs up what every anecdote tells us: "Suchy was without a doubt the best defenseman in Europen in the late 60s and early 70s," "Never before had Europe seen a defenseman as complete as Suchy."

Ragulin was considered a top-2 defenseman for the USSR as late as 1972 but most of what you've said of him paints him as a 1960s relic that couldn't keep up with the new young hotshots Suchy and Svedberg and mainly because they made the IIHF all-star teams and he didn't.

I'm well aware that Ragulin was a top 2 defenseman in the USSR as late as 1972, but over who? Was anyone who watched the 1972 Summit Series impressed by the quality of the Soviet defensemen? Their forwards were spectacular, their goaltending shockingly good, but how were their defensemen? Doesn't Valeri Vasiliev get a lot of credit for being the first Soviet defenseman who looked like star against Canadian competition?

I think it's likely that Ragulin was just as good in the late 60s/early 70s as he was in the mid 60s, when he was a factor in WC awards, and that was good enough to beat out the competition in the Soviet league at the time. But it wasn't enough to beat out Suchy or Svedberg in the only place where they were all directly competing against each other.

I've followed a lot of the threads on the development of European hockey on this board and it is generally assumed that European hockey didn't really become competitive until the late 60s. Isn't it a bit concerning that Ragulin was able to be a Soviet League All Star as late as 1972, yet neither he nor any other Soviet defenseman could get on a World Championship All Star Team after 1967 until the new generation came of age?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tom Johnson

I briefly tried finding newspaper articles from 1958-59, the year he won the Norris but gave up. There is a lot of good secondary material on Johnson though, which I will post.

In short, Johnson was an excellent defensive defenseman, who could defend using finesse or brutality. He was Montreal's top penalty killing defenseman. When Harvey was injured in 1958-59, he was given a greater offensive role and excelled, winning the Norris.

From the Manitoba prairie town of Baldur, Johnson was an excellent skater and an intelligent defender. He was highly regarded as a playmaker and he was tenacious in corners and along the boards. He became a penalty-killing specialist primarily because fellow Habs defenseman Doug Harvey anchored the power play. Johnson was often used as a forward late in games with his team down a goal. He broke Harvey's skein of four straight Norris Trophies when he won the award in 1959. Harvey won again the next three years. Johnson had career highs of 10 goals, 29 assists and 39 points in 1959 and was named to the First All-Star Team.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=384557

An accomplished skater and puckhandler, defenseman Tom Johnson played a valuable role on the powerful Montreal Canadiens teams of the 1950s. He contributed to the Habs' rapid transitional game and would have scored more points had the team not already been blessed with Doug Harvey to quarterback the power-play. One of his key traits was an ability to recover almost immediately after making a rare mistake on the ice.
...
Johnson stepped into a starting role with the Habs in 1950-1951 and impressed them with his eagerness and durability in playing all 70 regular-season games. He was, however, vulnerable to common rookie mistakes such as hasty decision-making and taking unwise penalties. Johnson soon became a stalwart on the penalty-killing unit, where the team utilized his speed and his ability to win the majority of the battles in the corners. One of Johnson's patented moves was to steal the puck from an attacking forward without bodily contact. This allowed him to feed a pass to one of his teammates while the opposition was still heading toward the Montreal net. Although Johnson rarely saw power-play duty, coach Dick Irvin often switched him to center if the Habs needed a goal late in the game. Johnson won his first Stanley Cup ring in 1953 when the Habs defeated Boston. He later played a vital role on the Canadiens squad that won the Stanley Cup an unprecedented five consecutive times from 1956 to 1960.

By the time the team began dominating the NHL, Johnson was beginning to receive his due credit. In 1956 he was selected to the NHL Second All-Star Team. Three years later, he won the Norris Trophy and earned a spot on the First All-Star lineup. That year he was arguably the most valuable player on the team as he stepped into the void created when Doug Harvey was injured. Johnson didn't have Harvey's speed but he was a superb stickhandler and a consistent, accurate passer who rarely erred in his own end of the rink.

After apprenticing under the great Butch Bouchard, Johnson settled in with Jean Guy Talbot as long time defensive partners. A slow-footed defender, Johnson rarely received any power play time but was a key penalty killer for Les Habitants. The 6 time Stanley Cup champ was also known for his physical, sometimes dirty play.

Johnson may have been underrated by awards voters due to being overshadowed by teammates:

Johnson was a hard working defensive blueliner who played much of his career along side Doug Harvery, perhaps the greatest d-man in NHL history. Playing in Harvey's shadow, Johnson's talents and contributions went largely unnoticed.

"I was classified as a defensive defenceman. I stayed back and minded the store. With the high powered scoring teams I was with, I just had to get them the puck and let them do the rest," said Johnson, who wore #10 long before Guy Lafleur made it immortal.

New York Rangers' GM Emile "The Cat" Francis was one of Johnson's fans. "Johnson's trouble was playing on the most colorful team in hockey history. With guys like Maurice Richard, Boom Boom Geoffrion, Jacques Plante and Jean Beliveau in the lineup, nobody ever noticed Johnson. But he was the real worker on the team."

''He was never, ever really appreciated in Montreal, even though he played on all those great teams,'' said veteran Montreal beat reporter Red Fisher. ''The reason for it was he, and others with him, played in the very long shadow of Doug Harvey. The only defenseman I ever considered better than Doug Harvey was No. 4 Bobby Orr.''
....
Johnson escaped Harvey's shadow for one season - 1958-59. With Harvey hurt for much of the season, Johnson posted a career high 10 goals and 29 assists while earning the Norris Trophy. The Norris Trophy win interrupted Harvey's 8 year ownership of the award.

Johnson was not a clean player:

"Johnson's on my black list," explained Stan Mikita, a long time Blackhawk. "He liked to hit you from behind. When he got into a fight he never dropped his stick. Instead of using his fists, he used his stick for protection.
....
Johnson was elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1970. The election was one of the most controversial in Hall of Fame history. It was a bit of a surprise to some, including Tom. Eddie Shore in particular was so outraged by Johnson's inclusion that Shore threatened to buy back his own induction. Shore didn't appreciate Johnson's questionable stick work or alleged cheap shots.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Sylvio Mantha

I don't have much time today to get into primary resources either, so here's an overview of what the usual suspects have to say about Mantha.

One of the best two-way defensemen of his era... he was an important component of three Stanley Cup teams.

Arguably, Mantha's two most rewarding seasons were 1929-30 and 1930-31. He contributed to consecutive Stanley Cup triumphs and was named to the NHL Second All-Star Team both years. By this time, Mantha was entrenched as one of the most revered defensive defensemen in the game.

While Mantha was certainly a strong defender, he shouldn't be taken as a pure defensive defenseman:

Sylvio Mantha, dashing right defense player of the French club who has been getting goals regularly for his team in recent games, is highest in the [shooting percentage] averages among the regulars.

... Mantha is regarded as one of the most improved defense players in the league, ably filling the shoes of Herbie Gardiner. In Montreal he has won the title of "Goal a Game" Mantha by the regularity of his scoring.

This Frank Boucher quote has been circulated countless times on the History board:

... fellows like Shore and Clancy catch the eye of the spectator when they buzz up and down the rink, while fellows like Hitchman and Sylvio Mantha can do great defensive work without attracting half as much notice.

From ATD bios:

"A defensive bulwark" - King Clancy

“You know that Sylvio Mantha is a tough customer on that Montreal team. If we could just slow him down a step or two, we’d make it a lot easier on ourselves." - King Clancy

“I remember one game with the Leafs we were playing the Canadiens and Sylvio Mantha was the key to their defense. XXXX was our coach for us then and he called me over to the bench. “Get that Mantha,” he told me. First chance I got, I caught him with a cross check and broke his jaw. - King Clancy

"Mantha, one of the all time best defensive blue liners, was twice named to the Second All Star team." - Joel Pelletier

“He ranked among the best defensive defensemen in hockey... It was he who anchored the Morenzes, the Joliats, and the *********s as an ever-present defensive conscience.” – Ultimate Hockey

He established himself immediately as a superb player... He could rush the puck and hurry back to make defensive plays when necessary...” -- Players: The Ultimate A-Z Guide Of Everyone Who Has Ever Played In the NHL

"His offensive zone rushes aided the club’s transitional play, while his disciplined checking in the defensive zone rounded out his game." - Kings of the Ice

[Herb Gardiner's] smooth play and sound work in his own end was complemented by defense partner Sylvio Mantha’s playmaking and utterly fearless approach to the game, making the duo one of the top defensive pairings in the game.

Over the course of his career:

Rk | Name | GP | G | A | P | PIM
1 | King Clancy| 544 | 129 | 139| 268 | 873
2 |Eddie Shore| 444| 94| 147| 241 |945
3| Lionel Conacher|498 |80 |105| 185 |882
4 | Sylvio Mantha| 542| 63| 78| 141 |671
5 |Red Horner| 364| 33 |71 |104 | 1000
6 |George Boucher| 319| 58| 40| 98 |585

1928-29
HART: (310)
1. Roy Worters, NYA G 74
2. Ace Bailey, Tor RW 64
3. Eddie Shore, Bos D 62
4. Sylvio Mantha, Mtl D 60
5. King Clancy, Ott D 50
6. Andy Blair, Tor C
7. Lionel Conacher, NYA D

1930-31
ALL STARS:
1st Defense: Eddie Shore, King Clancy
2nd Defense: Sylvio Mantha, Ching Johnson

1931-32
ALL STARS:
1st Defense: Eddie Shore, Ching Johnson
2nd Defense: Sylvio Mantha, King Clancy

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It should be noted that George Boucher was past his offensive prime when Mantha came around, so that table you posted shouldn't be used to compare their offense. I know you aren't doing that, but want to make sure nobody else does.

Boucher was much better offensively than Mantha

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think this is a round where someone making a strong case for a player could make a difference.

I definitely like Suchy and Brewer this round. Compared to who's left, I like Babe Siebert for his peak, despite his limited time on the top.

After that, there are a lot of players who blur together for me.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It should be noted that George Boucher was past his offensive prime when Mantha came around, so that table you posted shouldn't be used to compare their offense. I know you aren't doing that, but want to make sure nobody else does.

Boucher was much better offensively than Mantha

Also, the GP column is something to keep an eye on.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I think this is a round where someone making a strong case for a player could make a difference.

I definitely like Suchy and Brewer this round. Compared to who's left, I like Babe Siebert for his peak, despite his limited time on the top.

After that, there are a lot of players who blur together for me.

I need to look into it more, but I think Flaman has a chance at making my top 5.

I also agree with the 3 players you listed

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I need to look into it more, but I think Flaman has a chance at making my top 5.

I also agree with the 3 players you listed

I think I'm leaning towards Tom Johnson over Flaman, but it's close. Johnson only got to show what he could do as a #1 once - and he won the Norris.

On the other hand, Flaman was the best player on a team that made the finals twice.

Those two are definitely at least a step up from Stanley and Howell, IMO.

I'm also not ready to dismiss Boucher/Cameron just yet.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm really not a Boucher expert... most of the time I don't know what to make of him. And Harry Cameron has been well-covered already. here is what I have on lester patrick, taken from an ATD12 bio two years old:

of note:

- his comeback at 42 was really outstanding
- PCHA 2nd all-star teams don't mean much, but surely his four 1st all-star teams equate to approximately four regular all-star teams (mostly 2nd I imagine) if you imagine the leagues were consolidated
- he was outstanding offensively, not much is really known of his defense
- he was a fiercely proud player and a very strong leader
- his time as a forward with the Wanderers adds to his overall legacy as a player but not as a defenseman - as you did with Moose Johnson, Dit Clapper, Red Kelly, Mark Howe and others, handle as you see fit.

Lester Patrick, D

- 6'1", 180 lbs
- Member of the HHOF
- Stanley Cup (1906, 1907)
- Stanley Cup Finalist (1904, 1908, 1914, 1918, 1926)
- Inducted to HHOF (1947)
- ECHA 1st All-Star Team (1907)
- PCHA 1st All-Star Team (1913, 1915, 1916, 1917)
- PCHA 2nd All-Star Team (1918, 1920)
- Top-10 in points twice as a forward (8th-1906-ECAHA, 3rd-1910-NHA)
- Top-10 in PCHA points four times as a defensemen (5th, 5th, 9th, 10th)
- Top-3 in PCHA Points by a defenseman 8 times (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd)
- 4th in points by defensemen in the consolidated WHL at age 42 and actually had the highest points per game average (1926)
- 2nd in Stanley Cup Series Scoring (1907)

With the exception of Newsy Lalonde, there is no other player whose career extended over such a period of time (circa 1926) as that of Lester Patrick, the Silver Fox of Hockey... He was captain and rover of the Redbands when they lifted the cup from the Silver Seven in 1906 and repeated the following year... Although he was probably at his best as a player with the Wanderers, he was on a championship team with Victoria in 1914 and was chosen an all-star defenseman of the PCHA (multiple times)

He was one of the top rushing defensemen of his day and a team leader... His exceptional passes benefitted the likes of ****** and ******

Lester Patrick, a slick speedster who moved across the ice more like a sprinter than a skater...

Lester could play any position, from goalie to defenseman to rover. A rover could play forward or defense, and Lester did both with equal agility.

Patrick was a swift, graceful skater and a magician with the puck, pioneering defensive innovations

It said something of Lester's leadership qualities that after being made captain of the Stanley Cup Champion Montreal Wanderers in his second year, he was named skipper of the Renfrew Millionaires in their first season, before the players had even had their first casual skate together.

Some game descriptions that show Patrick was frequently the best on the ice, and he could dish out the rough stuff and take it:

Ottawa's hopes for a championship rested on defeating the Wanderers in their return match at the capital on March 2nd... there seemed little doubt as to the outcome after play got started. The smooth skating Patrick and Johnson were all over the Senators. Russell played a magnificent game, scoring five goals but Patrick, who had moved back to the defense was judged the best man on the ice.

The new partnership got off to an auspcious start. In Patrick's first game with the Wanderers, an 11-5 rout of the Victorias, Lester, on one wing, scored three goals and Moose Johnson, on the other, scored one... Johnson was hailed in the newspaper as one of the game's outstanding performers, second only to Lester.

The whole evening was a great success. Renfrew had won the game 6-3; Taylor had put on a show and scored two goals; and Lester Patrick, "the tall Renfrew captain, was a good second to Taylor and his stickwork netted three goals."

Patrick was able to handle rough play and would stick up for his teammates:

Lester, as captain and supporter of Frank, found himself constantly involved with the fiery Lalonde. Three times they were sent off together:

"The rival captains were slashing at eachother with their sticks and fists on several occasions. In the second half, Patrick cut Lalonde's head open with a swing of his stick, and as soon as the Renfrew leader got back on the ice, Lalonde caught him with a wicked cross check that sent the famous rover into the air as if shot from a cannon."

Montreal player Barney Holden swung his stick in the direction of the Cyclone's head. Taylor retaliated in kind and connected. Holden's nose was bloodied. He rushed Taylor. Lester Patrick led the Renfrew players to their teammate's defense.

Even as a player, Patrick did things his own way, regardless of what was "normal":

As a player, Patrick was a defenseman who liked to rush the puck instead of lifting it into enemy territory.

The record will also show that the new Brandon cover-point rushed the length of the rink to score a spectacular goal in a game against Winnipeg. This tactic broke the unwritten law that said a defenseman should play defense only, and should never leave his beat to stray into the offensive zone. With that one audacious move against Winnipeg, Lester Patrick had become possibly the game's first rushing defenseman, the first of a long line... While lavishing praise on Lester's overall play, the Ottawa reporters criticized him for "his tendency to wander off down the ice away from his position". But then they had no way of knowing that this was the way the game would be played in the future.

Only two members of the (unsuccessful 1904 Challengers)Wheat kings played well enough to catch the attention of the Ottawa crowds. One was ******. The other was Lester patrick, a 20-year-old point man playing in his first Stanley Cup series. Even then he demonstrated a flair for playing the game his way. "Patrick at point was another good one", The Citizen noted, "when he wasn't doing the forward act in an attempt to score."

Patrick scored not only the cup-winning goal but also the cup clincher in the dying minutes of the game:

The Wanderers were now forced to open up their play and for a while it seemd that they had waited too long as Ottawa continued to press. Lester Patrick featured with several of his spectacular dashes and was finally rewarded with a goal that put the Redbands back in the lead. A few minutes later Patrick clinched it with another goal and the game ended 9-3 for Ottawa, but 12-10 Wanderers on the round.

The Wanderers, with ******* leading the way (but everyone knew Lester was the glue that held the team together) ended up on the long end of a 9-1 score in game 1!

As did Phil Esposito in 1972, Patrick called his teammates together in a huddle near the end of game 2. They had to play hockey the way they knew how, they way they had played in the first game, scoring nine goals.

Lester Patrick was the best of the Wanderers, and was very much in the game from start to finish. Some of his dashes were exceedingly good to look on. It was in the final stages when the game had to be won in short order that Patrick scintillated. he went down the ice, nursing the puck, sidestepping and dodging and had the Ottawa defense dazed.

With both teams suffering from extreme fatigue, it was Lester who sensed the kill as the Ottawa forwards labored deep in the Montreal zone, drawing their defensemen with them. He got the puck, flipped it to Moose Johnson on a break, and a moment later beat ******* with the goal that burst the Ottawa bubble. There were just 90 seconds to play, and then just before the end, Patrick, now plainly the coolest man in the arena, scored again to end the Sporting News' pick as the Greatest Hockey Game In History.

"With five minutes to go, Lester Patrick spoke to the timekeeper and to each Wanderer individually", wrote Bill Westwick of The Ottawa Journal in a cup flashback article in 1957. "It was probably one of the greatest pep talks ever spoken." "It was a masterly stroke; the genius of a general," said the 1906 Ottawa Journal writer about Patrick.

Some evidence of Lester's defensive ability is also found in this account of the game:

Midway through the first half, Ottawa partisans fell silent as rover Lester Patrick scored - the same Patrick, who in 1904 as the point for Brandon, thwarted numerous Ottawa rushes... Patrick was all over the ice...

Patrick even shone in a competitive exhibition series when sending a message about the PCHA's place in the world was of utmost importance:

So they arranged for an exhibition match between the pacific Coast league champion Victoria Aristocrats and the Cup-Winning Quebec Bulldogs, who consented to leave the frozen east to play a little indoor hockey... Yet the talents of "Phantom Joe" and his teammate "Bad" Joe Hall were not enough to conquer the Aristocrats of Victoria. The Patricks had a point to prove, and their manager and founder, 29-year old Lester Patrick, inspired his team with four goals in three games, to lead Victoria to a two-games-to-one victory. the fact the Patricks' teams way out there on B.C. Island had outscored the reigning Cup champs 16-12 sent a message to the rest of the hockey world: The PCHA was not some pampered experiment.

Patrick's last hurrah as a player, aside from his goaltending experience, was a real good one:

Due to injuries to his defensemen, he returned to action in 1926, and played through the schedule at age 42.

Now 42, Lester hadn't skated in anger for three seasons. But here in 1925 with the Cougars down to just one defenseman because of injuries, Lester shrugged, laced up his boots, grabbed a stick and went out to help.

After a shaky start in his first game in Calgary, the old boy got his legs back and set up Frank Fredrickson for the winning goal. A week later against the powerful Edmonton lineup he had two assists in a 4-2 victory, plus a direct hit on Eddie Shore, the young hard-rock who was already being hailed as the toughest, meanest defenseman in hockey. Eddie figured to no more than toy with the 42-year old before, if necessary, dispatching him to the infirmary. But it didn't work out that way. Instead, the old crook caught Shore with a crackling bodycheck that sent the cocky youth, 18 years Lester's junior, off the ice on a stretcher.

Portland was next. There, Lester tied the game with an unassisted goal and then set up Fredrickson for the winner. Then before a hostile but admiring Saskatoon crowd in Saskatoon, he stickhandled through the entire Saskatoon team and beat George hainsworth in overtime.

Several games later, it was the Cougars' ageless defenseman who assured his team of a playoff berth when he again netted the winning goal against Vancouver. That victory gave the Cougars a streak of six straight, and during that spell Lester had scored five of the club's 26 goals. Paired with **** ********, he was the bulwark of a defense that had allowed just seven goals in return.

The boss was still out there for the first game of the playoffs against Saskatoon, and he received a thunderous ovation as he skated out to his post. The cougars came from behind to salvage a tie in that game, but they lost their ace defenseman in the process. Lester had to leave the ice in the 2nd period when a stick swung by Cy Denneny broke his thumb.

Now, having personally shown the way into the playoffs, Lester settled back to watch his team win the league title and the right to travel to Montreal for the Stanley Cup.

Those 21 games played in relief by a 42-year old following a three-year layoff must surely represent one of the more amazing comebacks in the history of sport.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm pretty sure Lester Patrick was the second best defenseman in PCHA history (behind Moose Johnson). I just have no idea how that translates into the larger talent pool, or how it compares to guys like Cameron and Boucher.

Aren't Moose Johnson and Lester Patrick, the only HHOF defensemen to peak in the PCHA? It makes it hard to tell just how good Patrick was.

I'm also not sure what makes Patrick better than his contemporary Art Ross (who played in the NHA), to be honest, other than perhaps better information. (I think I had both Ross and Patrick in the late 50s on my submitted list).

 

[tarheelhockey]

Thinking about these players generationally. This might help spark some comparisons?

Lester Patrick 1904-1928

Harry Cameron 1912-1933
Georges Boucher 1915-1933

Sylvio Mantha 1923-1937
Babe Siebert 1925-1939

Ken Reardon 1940-1950

Fern Flaman 1943-1964
Allan Stanley 1946-1969
Tom Johnson 1947-1965

Harry Howell 1952-1976
Carl Brewer 1957-1980

Doug Wilson 1977-1993
Larry Murphy 1980-2001


And the internationals:
Alexander Ragulin 1957-1973
Jan Suchy 1963-1983


Personally I think of Murphy and Wilson as being at the very low-end of the 1980s/1990s cohort, as far as top-60 ranking is concerned. I guess we have kind of tapped out that era by now. Similarly, Siebert and Mantha are the last of their generation that should make it. After them, we get into some pretty weak options.

On the other hand, the pre-1920s group is still fairly small with only 3 entries so far. For anyone interested in era balance, you might look to Patrick, Boucher, and Cameron. Also, Ken Reardon would only be the second candidate after Quackenbush to represent a late-1940s peak.

And then there are the Europeans. IMO, Suchy is in a good position based on last round's voting, and the lack of attractive new options.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Thinking about these players generationally. This might help spark some comparisons?

Lester Patrick 1904-1928

Harry Cameron 1912-1933
Georges Boucher 1915-1933

Sylvio Mantha 1923-1937
Babe Siebert 1925-1939

Ken Reardon 1940-1950

Fern Flaman 1943-1964
Allan Stanley 1946-1969
Tom Johnson 1947-1965

Harry Howell 1952-1976
Carl Brewer 1957-1980

Doug Wilson 1977-1993
Larry Murphy 1980-2001


And the internationals:
Alexander Ragulin 1957-1973
Jan Suchy 1963-1983


Personally I think of Murphy and Wilson as being at the very low-end of the 1980s/1990s cohort, as far as top-60 ranking is concerned. I guess we have kind of tapped out that era by now. Similarly, Siebert and Mantha are the last of their generation that should make it. After them, we get into some pretty weak options.

On the other hand, the pre-1920s group is still fairly small with only 3 entries so far. For anyone interested in era balance, you might look to Patrick, Boucher, and Cameron. Also, Ken Reardon would only be the second candidate after Quackenbush to represent a late-1940s peak.

And then there are the Europeans. IMO, Suchy is in a good position based on last round's voting, and the lack of attractive new options.

I'll refrain from commenting on the early guys. As for the later guys, these are my opinions:

Siebert > Mantha. 3 First Team All Stars and twice finished higher in Hart voting than Mantha ever did. I like Mantha in the top 60, but not yet. I think I rated Mantha a bit too high on my submitted list.

Johnson/Flaman > Stanley. I think I prefer Johnson slightly to Flaman for reasons discussed above, but am open to an argument otherwise.

Brewer > Howell. I honestly don't think this one is particularly close.

I think I slightly prefer Murphy to Wilson, but am open to arguments otherwise. Murphy has a large edge in longevity, if nothing else. Wilson probably has the best single season, though.

Edit: And of course, Suchy > Ragulin

 

[seventieslord]

I'm pretty sure Lester Patrick was the second best defenseman in PCHA history (behind Moose Johnson). I just have no idea how that translates into the larger talent pool, or how it compares to guys like Cameron and Boucher.

Aren't Moose Johnson and Lester Patrick, the only HHOF defensemen to peak in the PCHA? It makes it hard to tell just how good Patrick was.

I'm also not sure what makes Patrick better than his contemporary Art Ross (who played in the NHA), to be honest, other than perhaps better information. (I think I had both Ross and Patrick in the late 50s on my submitted list).

NHA all-star teams would sure help, hey?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHA all-star teams would sure help, hey?

Yup. It would go a long way towards figuring out how good Cameron and Boucher were other than offensively, too.

Anyway I'm leaning towards Boucher over Cameron, if for no other reason than we have proof that Boucher was quite good in his own zone later in his career, while Cameron ended up converting back to forward in his twilight years. I realize that's not the strongest reason, but right now, that's the best I've got.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Year-by-year stats for our Original Six trio. Bear in mind that stats don't necessarily capture these guys' full impact.

F = Fern Flaman
J = Tom Johnson
S = Allan Stanley

Sorry for the abbreviations, the table looked like a mess when I wrote out each name.

Season | F Games | F Points | F Other | J Games | J points | J Other | S Games | S Points | S Other
1944-45|1|0-0-0||-|-||-|-|
1945-46|1|0-0-0||-|-||-|-|
1946-47|23|1-4-5||-|-||-|-|
1947-48|56|4-6-10||1|0-0-0||-|-|
1948-49|60|4-12-16||-|-||40|2-8-10|
1949-50|69|2-5-7||-|-||55|4-4-8||
1950-51|53|3-7-10||70|2-8-10||70|7-14-21|
1951-52|61|0-7-7|Cup|67|0-7-7||50|5-14-19|
1952-53|66|2-6-8||70|3-8-11||70|5-12-17|
1953-54|62|0-8-8||70|7-11-18|Cup|10|0-2-2|
1954-55|70|4-14-18|2nd AS|70|6-19-25||64|10-16-26|
1955-56|62|4-17-21||64|3-10-13|2nd AS/Cup|59|4-14-18|
1956-57|68|6-25-31|2nd AS|70|4-11-15|Cup|60|6-25-31|
1957-58|66|0-15-15|2nd AS|66|3-18-21|Cup|69|6-25-31|
1958-59|70|0-21-21||70|10-29-39|Norris/1st AS/Cup|70|1-22-23|
1959-60|60|2-18-20||64|4-25-29|Cup|64|10-23-33|2nd AS
1960-61|62|2-9-11||70|1-15-16||68|9-25-34|2nd AS
1961-62|-|-||62|1-17-18||60|9-26-35|Cup
1962-63|-|-||43|3-5-8||61|4-15-19|Cup
1963-64|-|-||70|4-21-25||70|6-21-27|Cup
1964-65|-|-||51|0-9-9||64|2-15-17|
1965-66|-|-||-|-||59|4-14-18|2nd AS
1966-67|-|-||-|-||53|1-12-13|Cup
1967-68|-|-||-|-||64|1-13-14|
1968-69|-|-||-|-||64|4-13-17|

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

So strange that Stanley was a 2nd Team All Star in 1966 but only finished 7th in Norris voting. They are often off by a placement, sometimes two, but that's very unusual.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Anyway I'm leaning towards Boucher over Cameron, if for no other reason than we have proof that Boucher was quite good in his own zone later in his career, while Cameron ended up converting back to forward in his twilight years. I realize that's not the strongest reason, but right now, that's the best I've got.

I think that's reasonable on a best-defenseman list. Boucher effectively has twice as much time at the position, creating a very large gap in longetivity that Cameron is hard-pressed to recover in peak. Also, Boucher has a considerable edge in terms of leadership, steadiness, and the "intangibles" category in general.

 

[seventieslord]

I think that's reasonable on a best-defenseman list. Boucher effectively has twice as much time at the position, creating a very large gap in longetivity that Cameron is hard-pressed to recover in peak. Also, Boucher has a considerable edge in terms of leadership, steadiness, and the "intangibles" category in general.

Boucher has twice as much time at defense?? I'm not so sure about that.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Boucher has twice as much time at defense?? I'm not so sure about that.

228 games to 449, right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

228 games to 449, right?

Boucher was definitely a forward for some of his 449 games, but a defenseman for most of them.

I'm not sure when he stopped spending time at forward, but it was pretty early in his career, I think. He never went back to forward like Cameron apparently did.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Allan Stanley

With the possible exception of Lester Patrick, I agree that this is the weakest group of new candidates yet. Edit: and possibly Flaman

I can dismiss 3 of them off the bat:

Ragulin - should be significantly behind Suchy and Suchy isn't in yet.
Stanley - should be significantly behind teammate Brewer and Brewer isn't in yet
Howell - as one-Norris wonders go, he's a lot better than Randy Carlye, but worse than Tom Johnson, who isn't in yet.

Flaman vs. Tom Johnson could be an interesting discussion.

I'd consider Lester Patrick, but would need to be convinced that he should be ranked ahead of Boucher and Cameron to seriously consider it.

Allan Stanley - very underrated made the SC finals 7 out of 8 seasons 1957-1964.

Interestingly the Bruins started their downward spiral when they traded Stanley to the Leafs for Jim Morrison while the Leafs with Stanley in the line-up went on to win 4 SCs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Stanley Cup

My main objection to Stanley is that most of the time he got a very small number of votes that likely didn't represent the consensus of hockey analysts at the time.

- 1956: received 5 votes out of a possible 180 (2.8%)
- 1957: received 4 votes out of a possible 180 (2.2%)
- 1962: received 14 votes out of a possible 180 (7.8%)
- 1963: received 3 votes out of a possible 180 (1.7%)
- 1964: received 3 votes out of a possible 180 (1.7%)

Stanley received solid Norris consideration in three seasons.

- 1960: received 42 votes out of a possible 180 (23.3%) - second to Harvey
- 1961: received 27 votes out of a possible 180 (15.0%) - third to Harvey and Pronovost
- 1966: received 23 votes out of a possible 180 (12.8%) - seventh

Stanley should get credit for having a very strong two-year peak but was otherwise never close to being a contender for the Norris trophy.

True but he was the defensive glue, straw that stirred the drink on teams defensively that went to the SC finals 7 out of 8 seasons.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Coaching

Does anyone have any theories or explanations about Harry Howell's lack of appearances on the All-Star Team? Aside from his '67 Norris win, he never made the 1st or 2nd Team in any season. He usually played close to a full season every year, so injuries aren't likely to be a reason. His offensive numbers were unspectacular, but fairly decent compared to the other blueliners of his era (i.e. 2nd highest scoring defenceman in '64). From everything I've heard about him, he had a reputation as a great shotblocker and was one of the better defensive defencemen in his day. And was his '67 season so much better than the rest of his career that he would finish 1st in voting, compared to never finishing top 4 in any other year?

Horrific coaching - Phil Watson, Alf Pike, Red Sullivan. Until Doug Harvey came along in 1961 Harry Howell had an excellent defensive game but was reluctant offensively.Harvey influenced his offensive technique and confidence.

 

[Canadiens1958]

True

Does anyone have any theories or explanations about Harry Howell's lack of appearances on the All-Star Team? Aside from his '67 Norris win, he never made the 1st or 2nd Team in any season. He usually played close to a full season every year, so injuries aren't likely to be a reason. His offensive numbers were unspectacular, but fairly decent compared to the other blueliners of his era (i.e. 2nd highest scoring defenceman in '64). From everything I've heard about him, he had a reputation as a great shotblocker and was one of the better defensive defencemen in his day. And was his '67 season so much better than the rest of his career that he would finish 1st in voting, compared to never finishing top 4 in any other year?

Isn't this an awful lot of reliance on a "you either get it or you don't" award? Two defensemen make the all-star team. All the rest don't. The gap you are drawing between the two that do and the rest that don't seems to be massive compared to what we know from actually watching short tournaments.

Ragulin was considered a top-2 defenseman for the USSR as late as 1972 but most of what you've said of him paints him as a 1960s relic that couldn't keep up with the new young hotshots Suchy and Svedberg and mainly because they made the IIHF all-star teams and he didn't.

Because he was a 1960's relic who was slow in his prime. Saw the 1964 and 1965 games vs the Junior Canadiens at the old Forum and he was slow and indecisive. Closer John Hanna, Jean Gauthier, Noel Picard type player than Elmer Vasko, Surrounded with skilled and fast teammates.