Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Defensemen)

TheDevilMadeMe

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IMO, it's that lack of "meaningfulness" that really matters. The 10th best dman in an O6 season was probably pretty good, but there's no reason to think it was Allen Stanley just because a couple of journalists threw votes his way.

After about 4th or 5th, I stop paying attention to the order.

I more or less do the same. I think getting a few votes is evidence that the player had a good season, but the rankings don't really matter after 5 or 6 to me.

Stanley is easy "not top 10" for me along with fellow newcomers Ragulin and Howell.
 

reckoning

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Does anyone have any theories or explanations about Harry Howell's lack of appearances on the All-Star Team? Aside from his '67 Norris win, he never made the 1st or 2nd Team in any season. He usually played close to a full season every year, so injuries aren't likely to be a reason. His offensive numbers were unspectacular, but fairly decent compared to the other blueliners of his era (i.e. 2nd highest scoring defenceman in '64). From everything I've heard about him, he had a reputation as a great shotblocker and was one of the better defensive defencemen in his day. And was his '67 season so much better than the rest of his career that he would finish 1st in voting, compared to never finishing top 4 in any other year?
 

Hardyvan123

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IMO, it's that lack of "meaningfulness" that really matters. The 10th best dman in an O6 season was probably pretty good, but there's no reason to think it was Allen Stanley just because a couple of journalists threw votes his way.

After about 4th or 5th, I stop paying attention to the order.

Fair enough but how does that affect the modern integrated NHL versus past days were Suchy, Vasilev and Park all played in different countries and leagues?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Anecdotal evidence that Suchy was that much better than anyone in Europe

Quotes via Dreakmur's profile:

IIHF Hall of Fame said:
He was without any doubt the most outstanding international defenseman in the late 60s and early 70s. He represented his country 160 times (five IIHF World Championships and the 1968 Olympics) and was the first in Europe to make shot blocking an art.

He will be also remembered for his spectacular offensive game that prompted many to call him the “Bobby Orr of Europeâ€. He scored 44 goals for the national team and was named Best Defenseman at the 1969 and 1971 IIHF World Championship. In domestic competition, he starred for Dukla Jihlava from 1963 – 1979 where he played in 562 games scoring 162 goals while winning seven championships

A September to Remember said:
Never before had anyone in Europe seen a defenseman as complete as him. He could do it all. He was a great skater who could set the pace of a game in the same fashion as a Bobby Orr or Doug Harvey. He was virtually a fourth forward on the ice with his fine technique, vision and skating. He not only excelled offensively but did it defensively as well. He was also a master shotblocker who never hesitated to throw his body in front of a shot

That website is noted for lavishing excessive praise on non-NHL Europeans, so I don't take the comparison to Orr or Harvey seriously except maybe to say that Suchy was as far ahead of other Europeans as Harvey and Orr were ahead of other NHLers. But when the website said Europe had never before seen a defenseman that complete, I do take the comparison to other Europeans very seriously.

Lennart Svedberg after beating out Suchy for the Directorate award in 1970 said:
I've never seen a better defenseman in my life, and it only felt appropriate to tell him what I felt about it

Svedberg had to have been quite familar with Ragulin by this point. He also had a least a passing familiarity with Carl Brewer.

You just can't find quotes like this about Ragulin. You find quotes praising his play, quotes talking about how he would have likely excelled in the NHL even in a six team era. But nothing about how he was just that much better than everyone else in Europe.
 

overpass

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Does anyone have any theories or explanations about Harry Howell's lack of appearances on the All-Star Team? Aside from his '67 Norris win, he never made the 1st or 2nd Team in any season. He usually played close to a full season every year, so injuries aren't likely to be a reason. His offensive numbers were unspectacular, but fairly decent compared to the other blueliners of his era (i.e. 2nd highest scoring defenceman in '64). From everything I've heard about him, he had a reputation as a great shotblocker and was one of the better defensive defencemen in his day. And was his '67 season so much better than the rest of his career that he would finish 1st in voting, compared to never finishing top 4 in any other year?

The Rangers were a pretty bad defensive team for most of Howell's career.

Year | NYR GA | Avg GA | Rank
1953 | 211 | 168 | 6
1954 | 182 | 168 | 5
1955 | 210 | 177 | 5
1956 | 203 | 177 | 5
1957 | 227 | 188 | 6
1958 | 188 | 196 | 2
1959 | 217 | 203 | 5
1960 | 247 | 206 | 6
1961 | 248 | 210 | 5
1962 | 207 | 211 | 4
1963 | 233 | 208 | 5
1964 | 242 | 194 | 6
1965 | 246 | 201 | 5
1966 | 261 | 213 | 5
1967 | 189 | 209 | 3

The Rangers were had the fifth or sixth worst goal prevention record for most of Howell's time in New York.

In 1966-67, they had the fewest goals against in the league at the halfway point and were tied for the best record in the league when the first half awards voting was conducted. They ended up with 72 fewer GA than the previous season. Howell and Ed Giacomin got a lot of credit for that improvement.

Let's say that defencemen on teams that were 5th or 6th in goals against had no chance to make the all-star teams. (I don't know if this is true, if anyone wants to check it go ahead.) In that case, Howell would have only had a chance for an all-star spot in 1957-58, 1961-62, and 1966-67.

Earlier in his career, Howell was often booed by Ranger fans.
“Since the day he tugged on his Ranger jersey nine years ago, Howell has been the number one boo boy among the Blueshirts,” wrote Stan Fischler in a February 1961 issue of The Hockey News. “Howell and Stanley (Allan Stanley, Howell’s successor who went to the Leafs) play hockey the same way. They don’t waste energy and they ration bodychecks. But when they hit, the boff has the effect of a Sherman tank.”

Howell never received double-digit votes for the Norris trophy until 1963-64. So it's very possible that his defensive game didn't fully develop until later in his career.

Edit: Found this article from Pat Curran of the Gazette on his midseason all-star votes.
Harry Howell, long overdue defenceman
Harry Howell, often overlooked in 15 NHL seasons with the stumbling Rangers, stacks up as the top Norris Trophy defenceman. The 34-year-old rearguard has been a tower of strength at the New York blueline in addition to scoring seven goals and 15 assists.

Curran calls Howell "overdue" and "overlooked." It's possible that Howell could have received more recognition earlier had he played on a better team.

In Curran's 1966 midseason awards column, he wrote
Third team choices are Harry Howell, who has been handicapped by toiling for a fifth place club...

Just realized that Bill Gadsby would be a counterexample of someone who received all-star recognition on a bad defensive team.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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I'm not sure if I buy that Harry Howell was hurt by playing for a bad team. This is the Original 6 era, when every sportswriter saw every team play at least 14 times. I think they would have gotten a good sense of how good he was.

You posted that the Rangers had a big turn around when he won the Norris, and he was given a lot of credit for it (along with their goaltender). Maybe he really did just have a career season.
 

overpass

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I'm not sure if I buy that Harry Howell was hurt by playing for a bad team. This is the Original 6 era, when every sportswriter saw every team play at least 14 times. I think they would have gotten a good sense of how good he was.

You posted that the Rangers had a big turn around when he won the Norris, and he was given a lot of credit for it (along with their goaltender). Maybe he really did just have a career season.

Pat Curran did write in 1966 that Howell was "handicapped by toiling for a fifth place club."

But I'm not sure Howell was underrated prior to 1966-67 either. All signs point to that being a career year by him. And if Bill Gadsby received recognition on a bad team, why couldn't Howell? I'm just throwing it out as a possibility.

I mentioned Howell and Giacomin as keys to the Ranger turnaround because they were mentioned in a couple of articles about the Rangers having a Harry Howell night in honour of his 1000th NHL game. I'll add another possible factor - their first full season under Emile Francis.

By the way, Howell's first half awards voting was much better than his second half in 1966-67. In Norris voting, he got 79 votes in the first half and 34 in the second half. Pierre Pilote had 32 votes in the first half and 63 in the second half. And in Hart voting, Howell had 13 votes in the first half and one vote in the second half.

The Rangers were also better in the first half - tied for first overall, with the fewest goals allowed at the halfway point. At the end of the season, they had fallen to fourth place, with the third fewest GA. Pilote's Hawks ended up with 19 fewer GA.

I'm not sure what to make of those first half/second half splits. The second half voting was supposed to be for the second half of the season, but you wonder if some first-half credit was working it's way in there. In any case, they probably put more weight on first-half performance than current Norris and Hart voters would.
 
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Hardyvan123

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To me, we just look at them each in their own context. The discussion over Suchy in the previous thread was a good example.

So just that I have it right Suchy, Park and Vasiliev for example are judged by the leagues they play in and a later guy say Leetch or Chara is judged in a fully integrated league like it was the same thing?

Is that fair to either sets of players?
 

Pear Juice

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That website is noted for lavishing excessive praise on non-NHL Europeans, so I don't take the comparison to Orr or Harvey seriously except maybe to say that Suchy was as far ahead of other Europeans as Harvey and Orr were ahead of other NHLers. But when the website said Europe had never before seen a defenseman that complete, I do take the comparison to other Europeans very seriously.
Few people in Europe at this time had knowledge to such a level that they could seriously compare Suchy to e.g. Orr or Harvey. There simply wasn't extremely much exchange between the NHL and the European leagues in the 1960s. Comparing Suchy to Orr or Harvey is not a way of saying he was equally good to them (even though some may argue that he actually was, I think that's a long stretch.), it's a way of saying that he was just as important as they were. Development of European hockey is in some ways independent of the development of North American hockey. We needed our own superstars to really get things going. Tumba was that kind of face in Sweden, Suchy was one who really captivated fans even outside of his own country.
 

steve141

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I'm not sure if I buy that Harry Howell was hurt by playing for a bad team. This is the Original 6 era, when every sportswriter saw every team play at least 14 times. I think they would have gotten a good sense of how good he was.

Usually the opposite is true. If a bad team has one single player, that player tends to get a disproportionate amount of credit.

I have seen nothing, except for longevity, that would justify putting Howell in the top 60.
 

tarheelhockey

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Usually the opposite is true. If a bad team has one single player, that player tends to get a disproportionate amount of credit.

That's probably true in the popular consciousness (Rick Nash), but does it apply to awards voting? Seems to me voters prefer players on good teams -- for someone on a bad team to get an award, they have to be so outstanding as to leave no doubt or debate. And even then, some writers will say outright that they won't consider someone for a Hart or Smythe unless he is on a winning team.
 

Rhiessan71

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That's probably true in the popular consciousness (Rick Nash), but does it apply to awards voting? Seems to me voters prefer players on good teams -- for someone on a bad team to get an award, they have to be so outstanding as to leave no doubt or debate. And even then, some writers will say outright that they won't consider someone for a Hart or Smythe unless he is on a winning team.

Just like Iginla in 01/02. 6 points more and a full 11 goals more than the next best.
Now, while I'll be the first to admit that Theodore had a hell of a season. No way he wins it if Iggy makes the playoffs. It was a tie vote as it was and Theo only won because he had more 1rst place votes.
Jagr missing a bunch of games with his new team the Caps and Mario managing only 24 games didn't hurt either ;)

The players got it right though, awarding him the Pearson.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Norris Voting Top 5 1954-1970

Maybe this will help us get a better handle on the five candidates who peaked during the height of Original 6 hockey. 1953-54 is the first year for which the Norris was awarded. Conveniently, none of these players got consideration for All Star Teams before them.

Year|Winner|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1953-54|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey|Bill Gadsby|Tim Horton|Bob Goldham
1954-55|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly| Fern Flaman |Bob Goldham|Hugh Bolton
1955-56|Doug Harvey|Bill Gadsby|Red Kelly| Tom Johnson | Fern Flaman
1956-57|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly| Fern Flaman |Bill Gadsby|Doug Mohns
1957-58|Doug Harvey|Bill Gadsby| Fern Flaman |Ron Stewart|Marcel Pronovost
1958-59| Tom Johnson |Bill Gadsby|Marcel Pronovost|Doug Harvey| Fern Flaman
1959-60|Doug Harvey| Allan Stanley |Marcel Pronovost|Pierre Pilote| Tom Johnson
1960-61|Doug Harvey|Marcel Pronovost| Allan Stanley |Pierre Pilote|Leo Boivin
1961-62|Doug Harvey|Pierre Pilote|Jean-Guy Talbot| Carl Brewer |Doug Mohns/Jack Evans
1962-63|Pierre Pilote| Carl Brewer |Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko|Bill Gadsby
1963-64|Pierre Pilote|Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko|Jacques Laperriere|Terry Harper/ Harry Howell
1964-65|Pierre Pilote|Jacques Laperriere|Bill Gadsby|Tim Horton|Marcel Pronovost
1965-66|Jacques Laperriere|Pierre Pilote|Pat Stapleton|J.C. Tremblay|Doug Barkley
1966-67| Harry Howell |Pierre Pilote|Bobby Orr|Tim Horton|J.C Tremblay
1967-68|Bobby Orr|J.C. Tremblay|Tim Horton|Jim Neilson|Jacques Laperriere
1968-69|Bobby Orr|Tim Horton|Ted Green|Ted Harris|Al Arbour
1969-70|Bobby Orr|Brad Park| Carl Brewer |Jacques Laperriere|Jim Neilson

Notes:
  • The Maple Leafs won 3 straight Cups in 1962, 1963, and 1964. Their defense was Horton-Stanley, Brewer-Baun. They won a surprising 4th Cup in 1967 with an aging Pronovost replacing Brewer.
  • Carl Brewer was 1 point away from finishing 5th in 1965. Pronovost had 20 voting points and Brewer had 19. Then Brewer left the NHL after a feud with Punch Imlach, finished his degree, was an All Star at the 1967 World Championships, spent a year in Finland that was impressive enough to be inducted into the FInnish Hockey Hall of Fame, then returned to the NHL in 1969-70 and immediately finished behind only Orr and Park in Norris voting. Injuries took their toll on Brewer in 1970-71 and he was never the same.
  • Tom Johnson played on Montreal's second pairing behind Harvey for most of this time period, except for part of 1958-59 when injuries to Harvey gave Johnson a bigger role. He won the Norris that season
  • Fern Flaman won the Cup as a young role player for Toronto in 1951. In his prime, he was credited with being Boston's best player as they went to 2 straight finals (1957 and 1958), losing to Montreal both times.
  • Howell finished 6th in Norris voting in 1956. He had 8 voting points to 11 for 5th place Flaman.
 
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tarheelhockey

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Here's what I can find on Cameron.

Pre-NHA

Cameron played for the Pembroke Debaters as an amateur from 1908-11. He first went pro with the Port Arthur Lake City team of the Northern Ontario Hockey League. Very little information is available about these years, other than that Cameron insisted that teammate and boyhood friend Frank Nighbor also be offered a pro contract.


1912-13

Cameron entered the NHA with the Toronto Blueshirts, and made an immediate impact. It's noteworthy that while Cameron was the spectacular rusher from the back line, it was coach Jack Marshall's role as a stabilizing force that allowed Cameron to be maximize his talent.

The Toronto World 1/16/1913
Marshall and Cameron made a defence that could not be improved upon. Cameron got the hand [ed: applause] several times for his individual rushing.

The Saskatoon Phoenix 1/17/1913
Coach Jack Marshall got into a uniform and made a great improvement to the defence with Cameron. The latter's rushing was sensational... Cameron, Wilson and Neighbor (sic) were Toronto's stars, with Marchand playing brilliantly in goal.

The Toronto World 2/6/14
Harry Cameron was again the favorite last night. His lone rushes are regular things every night the Torontos play at home.

The Toronto World 2/10/14
Harry Cameron electrified the crowd time after time with his rushes and Marshall kept taking the puck away from his opponents until they looked rather sick.

The Toronto World 2/17/1913
The Torontos displayed laxness at times, but Jack Marshall, who has proved himself the life of the team, time after time, was there with an opportune word, and kept the boys hustling. Alto he is not the best player on the team his generalship is the blue shirts' biggest asset. Nighbor was the star of the game...
... Harry Cameron put up a nice game, and his zig-zag rushes were always to the fore when things looked doubtful.

GP | G | A | P
20 |9| 0| 9


1913-14

The major change to the Blue Shirts this season was the departure of Frank Nighbor and adding George Macnamara as a substitute on defense. They gelled as a team and won the first Stanley Cup in Toronto hockey history. On this team, Cameron had risen to the point of being a legitimate star.

The Toronto Sunday World 2/22/1914
Cameron was the best man on the ice, and his all-round good work did more to put the locals on top than anything else. He scored one of the Torontos' goals and sent about ten more hard ones right at Vezina, who was forced to step lively to clear them. Every time a rush was started at his nets he was there in all his element, and he blocked and saved well. He did a lot of rushing also, and relieved in places when things looked dangerous.

GP | G | A | P
19 | 15 | 4 | 19


1914-15

Jack Marshall came down with appendicitis mid-season, and after his departure the Blue Shirts quickly dropped out of contention. Their 1-8 streak to finish the season is an indication of how important Marshall was to this club. His next game in Toronto would be as a member of the Habs.

GP | G | A | P
17| 12| 8| 20


1915-17

The sale of the Blue Shirts to Eddie Livingstone in 1915 signaled a turning point for the team and for Cameron's career. Judging by the amount of press coverage they received, the sorry team lost the attention of the Toronto hockey public. In turn, it's a lot more difficult to find details of Cameron's performance.

Cameron ended up briefly with the Montreal Wanderers after Livingstone's feud with the NHA led to the demise of the Blue Shirts.

Season | GP | G | A | P
1915-16 | 24 | 8 | 3 | 11
1916-17 | 20 | 9 | 5 | 14


1917-18

Cameron returned to Toronto when the Arenas franchise began play in the NHL. Around this time, he began to feud with manager Charlie Querrie. That feud would play out in the media and the court of public opinion, but Cameron proved a bit too valuable to be disposed of easily.

The Saskatoon Phoenix 12/27/1917
To Harry Cameron, Querrie's sterling defence player, belongs the lion's share of the credit. Three of the goals were directly due to his clever skating and stick handling, while he notched another on a pass from Meeking. On the defence he stopped Lalonde, Malone and Laviolette time and again, and on several occasions he out-skated the whirlwind "Newsy".

The Toronto World 1/29/1918
Cameron showed some of his old time form in rushing and played a fair defensive game.

The following three quotes are from the Stanley Cup Finial series between Toronto and Vancouver.

The Toronto World 3/27/1918
Cameron was the outstanding player for the locals. He rushed in his old time style and the game needed these thrillers at times to liven it up. The good defence man grabbed two goals himself and paved the way for two more.
... Cameron was especially brilliant with his rushes, and he dodged the checkers nearly every time.
... Cameron received a pass and set sail down the ice alone. He shoved the puck ahead of him and when he hit the defence, skated around Griffis, and then picked it up and beat Lohman from close range. It was a pretty goal.
Cameron rushed right back, passed over the defence, and sent the puck across the goal mouth, but Meeking failed to reach it.
... Cameron tore down, skated around the defence and passed to Skinner at the goal mouth. Lohman didn't have a chance to save.
... Cameron got this one back for the Toronto Club with a beautiful lone rush. When Cameron hit the defence he shoved the puck along, went on and grabbed it and scored.
A three-man Toronto rush was next in order and Cameron missed the net by inches only from a good pass.

The Toronto World 3/29/1918
Torontos were simply lost at the seven-man, no offside in centre ice stuff. Vancouver ran all over them with speed and had a bag of tricks that left the blue shirts gasping.
... Cameron was a strong rusher for Toronto, but had hard luck with his shots.

The Toronto World 4/1/1918
Individual rushes were the order, and the work of Cook and Cameron featured.


While it certainly would appear that he was less oustanding as the series wore on, Cameron appears to have been one of the only Toronto players to impress in every game and he was perhaps the single most important player in the first game.

Note the reference to rushing "in old time style". One gets the impression that he was seen as something of a relic at age 28, playing a rushing game that was increasingly less common among younger defensemen.

GP | G | A | P
21 | 17 | 10 | 27


1918-1919

The Calgary Daily Herald 1/31/1919
And the honor of netting the winning goal and of breaking up the big battle again fell to Harry Cameron who had already made himself famous by scoring the deciding point in the Ottawa-Toronto grind at the Queen City arena two nights before.
... Cameron took [Frank Nighbor's pass] perfectly, swerved slightly to his left and then let go a high shot which landed in the twine behind Vezina. ... Cameron kept right on skating after slamming in the goal which brought victory to Ottawa, and was in the dressing room, tired and panting before the majority of spectators realized that it was all over.

The quote above paints a nice picture of an offensive force in his prime. One gets a sense not only of the gracefulness of his skating, but that he had grown into that stage where players seem to operate at a level slightly above the opponent.

Cameron was briefly traded to Ottawa that season... alas, if any reactions to that trade exist in print I can't find them.

GP | G |A |P
14 | 11 | 3 |14


1919-20

This was an interesting season for Cameron. He returned from a brief sojourn in Ottawa. Querrie, his longtime nemesis in management, bought the team in December and renamed them the St. Patricks. Note the following series of events.

The Toronto World 12/24/1919
Mitchell was very good in the Toronto nets, while Cameron and Randall both furnished strong defence games.

The Toronto World 12/29/1919
[several others played well, as did] Cameron, tho the latter was not at his best owing to a bad gash he received in the preliminary practice when he crashed into the goal post with his head, requiring medical assistance.

Edmonton Journal 1/15/1920
Noble and Cameron were away below form. Cameron gave a listless exhibition and was taken out near the close of the first period. Immediately following the game the locals traded him to Canadiens for "Goldie" Prodgers.

The Montreal Gazette 1/19/1920
Harry Cameron, who was recently secured from St. Patrick's in trade for Goldie Prodgers, made his initial appearance with Canadiens and acquitted himself in a creditable manner. Cameron was not only used as a substitute defenceman, but was sent in to relieve players on the forward line.

The Montreal Gazette 1/21/1920
Cameron is playing better hockey with Canadiens than he did with St. Patrick's, and fits well into his new position.

Within a month's time he goes from solid, to severely injured, to listless, to expendable, to a success with a new team.

Brings a few questions to mind. Who the hell goes head-first into the goal post during warmups? Why was he so listless after that injury? Why was the team so quick to pull the trigger on trading a 5-year star? Was he in a concussion-like state, or something else along the lines of a Lionel Conacher situation? Or was he simply disinterested in playing for Querrie, who had the leverage to unilaterally send Cameron packing for the second time.

It's a very interesting drama indeed.

GP| G | A | P
23 | 15 | 5 | 20

1920-21

Cameron, of course, returned to Toronto the next season (more questions spring to mind) and appears to have been right back to form.

The Toronto World 1/24/1921
... Harry Cameron skated from goal to goal, shot and slapped in the rebound...

The addition of Sprague Cleghorn gave him a defense partner comparable steadiness to Jack Marshall, and the results were notably similar.

The Toronto World 1/25/1921
Cleghorn and Cameron will be a hard defence to score on. It was Harry Cameron's defensive work which helped materially to beat Ottawa in the overtime period. Harry saved the situation twice in the overtime period by good headwork.
... [Cleghorn] will steady the defence and improve the play of Cameron.

The Toronto World 1/27/1921
Cameron was also brilliant with his rushing, and was not adverse (sic) to giving or taking a pass. ... Cameron fitted in nicely with [Cleghorn] in the rushing.

GP | G |A | P
24 | 18 | 9 | 27


1921-22

With Cameron leading all defensemen in goals, assists and points, the St. Pats finished second in the league and beat the heavily-favored Senators in the playoffs on the way to the Stanley Cup. Unfortunately, much of the summary of the first game of the series is unreadable on the Google archive. It appears that Cameron had a hand in a controversial goal. In the second game, apparently played in "inches of water", the St. Pats played suffocating defense against a Senators club that could be described in Terry Murray's words as experiencing a choking situation. The Montreal Gazette seemed scandalized that the Cup would be defended by a team which was "not truly the best representative team of eastern professional hockey". I suppose we should take that kind of talk with a grain of salt, but it does say something about the degree to which the St. Pats stepped up their game in the playoffs while the juggernaut Sens faded.

Cameron was 3 points shy of Babe Dye for the team lead that season.

GP | G | A | P
24| 18 |17 |35

1922-23

The Calgary Daily Herald 12/2/1922
Cameron for the visitors stood out conspicuously in the already conspicuous performance of the St. Pats. All three of Toronto's goals went to his stick. He faithfully contributed one in every period.
... Noble, Denenny and Rye were responsible for some brilliant work and they were only prevented from piling up a handsome score by the work of Fowler. Old Harry Cameron was the only man that had Fowler's number.
... Then Cameron showed the lads something flashy and beat Fowler.

Cameron was clearly still a force to be reckoned with, but I think it says something when a player starts to be referred to as "old so-and-so" and talked about as showing "the lads" a trick or two.

This was his final season in the NHL. When the Pats missed the playoffs in 1923, Cameron departed for Saskatoon where, as I understand it, he made a transition to forward.

GP | G | A | P
22 | 9 | 7 | 16

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The following table shows the top 5 defensemen in scoring from 1917 through 1923. Note that it does not include two seasons (1914 and 1915) when Cameron was a point-per-game scorer.

Rk | Name | GP | G | A | P | PIM
1 |Harry Cameron | 128 | 88 | 51 | 139 |189
2 |Eddie Gerard|128 |50 |48 |98 |108
3 |George Boucher | 109| 50| 39| 89 |207
4 |Sprague Cleghorn| 100 |52| 33 |85 |257
5| Bert Corbeau | 127 |45 |30 |75 |291

Starting in 1917-18, Cameron led all NHL defensemen in the following categories:

1917-18: Goals, Assists, Points
1918-19: Goals, Points (tied with his partner Randall)
1919-20: Points (tied with his partner Randall) and 2nd in goals to Cleghorn
1920-21: Goals, Assists, Points
1921-22: Goals, Assists, Points


Best I can tell, Cameron was likely the premier puck-rushing defenseman in hockey during the early years of the NHL. He took the solo-rushing sensibility of early hockey and applied it to the "modern" game. The major weakness in his game was the need for a steady partner, a Marshall or Cleghorn, to give him a bit of space to roam. Still, he was by no means a one-way player and if we had plus-minus numbers from back then, they would probably show very favorably for him.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Good stuff on Cameron.

Joe Pelletier (who rarely has a bad word to say about older players) gives a summary account of the pluses and minuses of Harry Cameron:

The good:
One of the best players in the early history of Toronto hockey was Harry Cameron, an exciting puck rushing defenseman from Pembroke, Ontario.

Cameron scored 88 goals in 121 NHL games, and another 53 tallies in 100 NHA contests. One of the secrets of his success was his curved shot, even though he played with a straight blade. Somehow he was able to spin the puck to fool goalies with his elusive shot.

An amateur legend in Pembroke, Cameron was a boyhood friend of Frank Nighbor. When pro offers came for Cameron, he would only sign if Nighbor was also signed by the same team. Nighbor of course went on to become a very good NHL player in his own right.

After one season with the Port Arthur Lake City, Cameron and Nighbor moved to Toronto. While Nighbor would move west the next season, Cameron and his exciting end to end dashes would become a Toronto hockey legend, twice bringing the Stanley Cup home.

The bad:

Cameron was also legendary for his temperament. He was said to be an unlikeable sort, very loud and outspoken. He was also quite uncoachable. His feud with Blueshirts boss Charlie Querrie was the city's live soap opera. Cameron regularly blew off practices and and training exercises, much to Querrie's dislike. But Cameron was too valuable on the ice, so Querrie was forced to co-exist with his grumpy star.

Twice Querrie had had enough, and traded Cameron away, only to reacquire him again. Thus his NHL resume includes short stints with Ottawa and Montreal.

Fun fact:

By The Way: It is believed that Harry Cameron may have been the first player in NHL history to record the "Gordie Howe hat trick" - one goal, one assist and one fight all in one game.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
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In addition to the Gordie Howe hat trick, Cameron was the first defenseman to score 4 goals in a game... and the only one to do it twice.

And even though such a feat might have been easier to accomplish in the early days, it says something that only one defenseman has done better -- Ian Turnbull in 1977. Cameron still shares the Habs team record with Cleghorn.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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In addition to the Gordie Howe hat trick, Cameron was the first defenseman to score 4 goals in a game... and the only one to do it twice.

And even though such a feat might have been easier to accomplish in the early days, it says something that only one defenseman has done better -- Ian Turnbull in 1977. Cameron still shares the Habs team record with Cleghorn.

George Boucher had 23 points in 21 games in 1923-24, 1 point away from tying for the league lead in points among all players. And by this point, Boucher was full-time defenseman.

Both Cameron and Boucher have very impressive offensive stats.

I would like better information on their overall impacts, though.

It would be nice if someone better versed on pre-consolidation players than I did a comparison between Boucher, Cameron, and Lester Patrick.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
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Carl Brewer

Reposting some things from Rounds 3 and 4 when Tim Horton first came up for vote.

TheDevilMadeMe said:
In 1961-62, Horton was 3rd in scoring among defensemen, but was not a First or Second Team All Star. First Team was Doug Harvey (6th in scoring among D) and Jean Guy Talbot in his career year (1st in scoring among D). Second team was Pierre Pilote (2nd in scoring among D) and Carl Brewer (9th in scoring among D). Horton outscored his teammate Brewer 38-23, yet Brewer was the 2nd Team All Star.

In 1962-63, Brewer and Horton tied with 25 points, but Brewer was the first team All-Star and Horton was the 2nd Team All Star.

Horton was a 1st Team All-Star for the first time in 1963-64.

From the all-star voting, it appears that Carl Brewer had a better defensive reputation than Horton in the regular season for the first 2 of the 4 Cups.

1969 Punch Imlach choose his All-Star Leafs team composed of players he coached over the past 10 years. His team:

Frank Mahovlich - Norm Ullman - George Armstrong
Tim Horton - Carl Brewer
Johnny Bower

Montreal Gazette said:
On Brewer, Imlach said, "As good a skater as I have ever had on my hockey teams. He could afford to make mistakes because he was so fast he could recover."

The newspaper noted that Brewer was "currently playing with the Finnish National Team" so it would appear Imlach picked Brewer even before they had a chance to reconsile.

Punch also coached Allan Stanley and a past his prime but still effective Marcel Pronovost.

Punch Chooses Best with Ullman No. 1, The Montreal Gazette, Jan 3, 1969

Tim Horton's obituary confirms that Brewer was considered a "superstar" at one point.

Montreal Gazette said:
It wasn't until 1963-64 that Horton made the first all-star team and he did it twice later, taking grip of the Toronto defense in four Stanley Cup years as Carl Brewer went through the change from superstar to free spirit.

Seems like Brewer actually was considered Toronto's #1 at the beginning of the dynasty (though Horton stepped up in the playoffs).

Right to the End Tim Horton Showed How to Play the Game, The Montreal Gazette, Feb 21, 1974
 

tarheelhockey

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It's remarkably difficult to find a good contemporary account of Fern Flaman's game. Most of the quality narratives are from later sources, such as the usual lineup of website profiles. This is almost certainly due to his defensive style of play, which doesn't make for much commentary in game summaries.

Here's an overview of his career.

Summary: Flaman was one of the meanest s.o.b.s at a time when hockey in general was a much more violent sport. He's almost singular in his legacy of carving a wide path through Original Six superstars, with perhaps only Gordie Howe at his toughness level (we'll get to that shortly). As a contemporary news article said, Flaman was not paid to score goals -- his role was that of a pure shutdown defender, the type who could intimidate even high-quality opposition enough to get them completely off their game.



First stint in Boston

Depending on your source, Flaman first began playing in the Bruins organization at the age of 15 or 16. This would have been around 1942, as the league was bleeding talent due to the War. Even at the time, 15 was a remarkably young age to be able to hold one's own with grown men. Flaman secured a spot with the Boston Olympics, the local amateur team, and was right on the spot when the Bruins began to struggle and look for new blood.

Flaman didn't enter the NHL with the intent of becoming an agitator -- "I've got a wife and daughter to support. I can't have everybody in the league after me, which is what happens to a player with that reputation." -- but as an accomplished amateur boxer he fell into a violent role almost immediately. The following is from the summary of his very first game in 1947:

The Boston Daily Globe 1/16/1947 said:
You can't judge the Boston Bruins or the new players on one game, but they certainly appear to be a vastly improved team and the new players provided much of that improvement. ...

All four new men played important roles... Fernie Flaman rated an all-star from Manager Art Ross.... Manager Art Ross picked his three all-stars in the following order: Pat Egan, Flaman, and Milt Schmidt. ...

[Red] Hamill liked Flaman on defense but warned, "He better keep that stick on the ice more."

As the article suggests, Flaman was a key part of the Bruins' resurgence in the second half of the 1947-48 season. Prior the roster shakeup, the Bruins were 11-14-8. With Flaman on the team, they were 15-9-3. He was described as "the new sensation" after only a few games.

One of the nice things about Boston game summaries of that period is that Art Ross would pick All Stars, as you see above. Flaman was frequently chosen in Ross' top-3, despite playing on a team with the Kraut Line as well as defensive standouts in Egan and Jack Crawford. I think that says something about the impact that a young Flaman had on the Bruins, which is fortunate because otherwise his defense-first style didn't make many headlines.

When they lost to the Habs in the playoffs that season, Art Ross told the local papers that Flaman and the other rookies had played too "tightened up". The next season, in their loss to Toronto, Flaman did a total 180 and was one of the best players on the team:

Christian Science Monitor 3/31/1948 said:
If you had to single out any one Bruin as top man ... If you wanted a defenseman you would have to name Fernie Flaman. [He, Brimsek and Ronty] were superstars trying to take care of the slack caused by the absentees.

Bear in mind that Flaman did not score a single point in that series, so whatever he did to deserve that "superstar" label is left up to our imagination. One gets the impression that we're talking about Langway-esque defense or something of the sort.

The Bruins continued to improve in 1948-49, finishing second in the league. Flaman, still only 22 years old, was the second-leading scorer on the team despite playing an almost entirely defense-oriented style. Accounts suggest that his slapshot was at least respectably strong.

In 1949-50, the bottom fell out for Boston. Coach Dit Clapper was replaced with George Boucher, and legendary goalie Frank Brimsek was sold to Chicago. The Bruins sank like a stone, and I suspect it's no coincidence that Flaman's PIM doubled as the team ceased to play meaningful games.

In Feburary 1950, on a team with Bill Quackenbush at his peak, Boston Globe writer Herb Ralby stated flatly that Flaman was the only Bruin deserving of an All Star berth.

Traded to Toronto

When the Bruins once again stumbled out of the gate in 1951, winning only one of their first 13 games, Art Ross pulled the trigger on a series of trades to reshape the roster. The biggest and most shocking of these sent Flaman to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Christian Science Monitor 11/17/1951 said:
The loss of Flaman, Smith, and Maloney will be noticed here in Boston. They have won a legion of freinds, particularly Flaman and Smith. ...

It need be no surprise if Flaman, Smith and Maloney do well elsewhere. The first two have been here a long time and were not profiting from the atmosphere of a losing club.

The Boston Daily Globe 11/17/1951 said:
There is strong resentment among the hockey fans over Ferny Flaman's departure ... Ferny was popular here and his many fans have threatened to boycott Bruins games.

The Boston Daily Glove 11/18/1951 said:
The deal with Toronto principally hinged on Flaman. ... A colorful and hard-hitting youngster, Flaman has been popular with Boston fans through the years. ... Reports from Toronto indicate that Smythe was adamant that Flaman be included in any deal with the Boston club.

The next time the Bruins played, Bill Ezinicki remarked, "If the Bruins still had Fernie Flaman, this would be the toughest club in the league to beat."

For his part, Flaman was shocked and dismayed. He had always been a good soldier in Boston hockey circles, going back to his amateur days, and didn't see the trade coming.

One on One with Fern Flaman said:
The trade was the lowest point in my life. I had felt a part of Boston. I had played three years with the Olympics and nearly three more years with the Bruins. On top of that, it had been in the papers that I would not be traded, that I was an 'untouchable.' Next thing I know, I'm with the Maple Leafs.

The trade turned out to be a blessing in disguise for Flaman, at least temporarily. Toronto was red-hot, and the addition of Flaman helped them to the league's lowest GAA. The Leafs stormed through the playoffs to the Cup final, with Flaman on a defense pairing with young Bill Barilko.

After Barilko's death, the Leafs never really got the magic back. Flaman and Jim Thomson were the core of a defense that gave Harry Lumley a Vezina, but the team lacked firepwoer. Flaman was paired primarily with another hard-hitter, young Leo Boivin, and his offensive numbers were all but non-existent. Likewise, he seemed to have lost an edge when traded to the Leafs:

Boston Bruins: Greatest Moments and Players said:
Flaman was less boisterous and, somehow, did not seem the same when he was wearing the royal blue and white of the Maple Leafs.

Back in Boston

Rather than tweak the roster, Conn Smythe decided to dismantle it. He had the good grace to send Flaman back to Boston, where he was welcomed back with open arms.

The Leader-Post 10/1/1954 said:
A rugged, hard-hitting defenceman, he is expected to give the Bruins' rearguard the solid thump it has lacked since his departure.

A funny thing happened when Flaman got back to Boston. His PIM totals skyrocketed by about 50% over the norm, leading the league for the only time, and he also made the 2nd All Star team for the first time. Perhaps that says something about the value of Flaman's aggressive physicality -- how many defensemen have made an AST while leading the league in PIM and being outside the top-10 in points? In 1957, during this prime run, he started a 6-year run as Bruins captain.

All 4 defensemen who joined him on the ASTs in 1957 and 1958 have been added to our list already -- Harvey, Kelly, Gadsby, Pronovost. Then there's Flaman.

Even though the Bruins struggled during the regular season with Flaman as their #1 defenseman, they showed well in the playoffs in '57 and '58. Unfortunately the Montreal Canadiens showed even better in the midst of their 5-Cup run. The Bruins were looking good for a third straight Finals appearance when both Flaman and his partner, Doug Mohns, went down with injury in a 7-game series loss to the Leafs. That was Flaman's final appearance in the playoffs, and he hung around only a couple more years before going the player-coach route in the minors.

In 1990, Flaman was inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame by veterans' committee.

Legacy

In Boston, Flaman was regarded along the same lines as consummate Bruins like Eddie Shore and Dit Clapper. At that time, only Clapper had been longer tenured as captain of the team. Prior to his retirement, the organization staged a "Fernie Flaman Night" that was similar in scope to the "Gordie Howe Night" hosted by the Red Wings a year earlier.

Outside Boston was a different story. The sheer consensus of opinion says it all:

Gordie Howe said:
He's the toughest defenseman I ever played against.

Jean Beliveau said:
Any other player I do not worry about, but when I go near that fellow, believe me I look over my shoulder.

Henri Richard said:
That Flaman, he bothers me more than anybody else in our league. I can't think or anyone else who gives me such a bad time.

Andy Bathgate said:
I think almost every team had a tough fella you had to be careful of. Not necessarily for fighting, but for bodychecking. Pierre Pilote. Fernie Flaman. Leo Boivin. Bobby Baun. Doug Harvey in Montreal.

Camille Henry said:
Flaman was the toughest player I ever came up against. He wasn't too dirty against me, but he hit me every chance he got

Tom Johnson said:
From what I have seen and from what I hear other players say, Fern Flaman of the Bruins is the roughest. Some of his own teammates agree with me and they ought to know.

Vic Stasiuk said:
I think the roughest player in the league is Fernie Flaman.

Jim Proudfoot said:
When hockey players talk shop, they frequently discuss the matter of who is their toughest opponent. A note of something bordering on awe creeps into the conversation when the name Flaman comes up. It is not a question of fear, for Flaman is not a vicious player, but a question of knowing that Flaman can deal a devastating body check, that he is among the most competent of defencemen in the business, and that, if aroused, he is one of the most capable fisticuffers in the league.


To be certain, there are weaknesses in Flaman's candidacy. He was not a major offensive contributor, similar to a Langway. His PIM were not purely a result of brawling, as evidenced by the number of game summaries noting goals scored with him in the box. And his style of play inevitably lead to injury, at times coming during important playoff pushes.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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I can dismiss 3 of them off the bat:

Ragulin - should be significantly behind Suchy and Suchy isn't in yet.

why?


Howell - as one-Norris wonders go, he's a lot better than Randy Carlye, but worse than Tom Johnson, who isn't in yet.

his norris voting record aside from his win isn't too bad - 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th, only counting years with votes that matter.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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Basically, and by the late 60s when Suchy and Svedberg came around, Ragulin couldn't sniff the All Star teams at the World Championships any more. Either his prime was over by the age of 26 (so much for his supposed longevity edge over Suchy), or (more likely) Suchy and probably Svedberg were simply better players.

I'll post more on this late, but all the criticism that Suchy got for competition (which IMO was largely misguided) actually does apply to Ragulin.

Isn't this an awful lot of reliance on a "you either get it or you don't" award? Two defensemen make the all-star team. All the rest don't. The gap you are drawing between the two that do and the rest that don't seems to be massive compared to what we know from actually watching short tournaments.

Ragulin was considered a top-2 defenseman for the USSR as late as 1972 but most of what you've said of him paints him as a 1960s relic that couldn't keep up with the new young hotshots Suchy and Svedberg and mainly because they made the IIHF all-star teams and he didn't.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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The Rangers were a pretty bad defensive team for most of Howell's career.

Year | NYR GA | Avg GA | Rank
1953 | 211 | 168 | 6
1954 | 182 | 168 | 5
1955 | 210 | 177 | 5
1956 | 203 | 177 | 5
1957 | 227 | 188 | 6
1958 | 188 | 196 | 2
1959 | 217 | 203 | 5
1960 | 247 | 206 | 6
1961 | 248 | 210 | 5
1962 | 207 | 211 | 4
1963 | 233 | 208 | 5
1964 | 242 | 194 | 6
1965 | 246 | 201 | 5
1966 | 261 | 213 | 5
1967 | 189 | 209 | 3

The Rangers were had the fifth or sixth worst goal prevention record for most of Howell's time in New York.

In 1966-67, they had the fewest goals against in the league at the halfway point and were tied for the best record in the league when the first half awards voting was conducted. They ended up with 72 fewer GA than the previous season. Howell and Ed Giacomin got a lot of credit for that improvement.

Let's say that defencemen on teams that were 5th or 6th in goals against had no chance to make the all-star teams. (I don't know if this is true, if anyone wants to check it go ahead.) In that case, Howell would have only had a chance for an all-star spot in 1957-58, 1961-62, and 1966-67.

Earlier in his career, Howell was often booed by Ranger fans.

Howell never received double-digit votes for the Norris trophy until 1963-64. So it's very possible that his defensive game didn't fully develop until later in his career.

Edit: Found this article from Pat Curran of the Gazette on his midseason all-star votes.

Curran calls Howell "overdue" and "overlooked." It's possible that Howell could have received more recognition earlier had he played on a better team.

In Curran's 1966 midseason awards column, he wrote

Just realized that Bill Gadsby would be a counterexample of someone who received all-star recognition on a bad defensive team.

Howell does deserve his share of scrutiny for the Rangers being so bad defensively just like gadsby does. It's weird that these two have such great defensive reputations when the teams for which they played the most minutes, were so often brutal.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
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Although I agree with TDMM that in a perfect world, Ragulin should be behind Suchy*, perhaps we've simply underrated Suchy.

If we think Ragulin deserves to be in the top five, we should still vote for him even if it means he's "too close" to the superior Suchy. No sense in underrating Ragulin simply because we've underrated Suchy.

* Ironic because I actually had Ragulin ahead of Suchy on my initial list, but I've since changed my mind. Part of the learning process of a project like this...
 

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