Round 2, Vote 10 (HOH Top Defensemen)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Voters will rank their top 10 of the available defensemen
• Final results will be posted and the top 5 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
• The process will be repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
BiLLYShOE1721; Canadiens1958; chaosrevolver; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Der Kaiser; Dreakmur; Epsilon; Hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; Hockey Outsider; intylerwetrust; JaysCyYoung; McNuts; MXD; overpass; pappyline; reckoning; seventieslord; TheDevilMadeMe; tarheelhockey; tony D; VanIslander

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hardyvan123]

you mean vote 10 in the title right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 10 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 10AM EST on Friday 1/27/12 and 2PM EST on Sunday 1/29/12. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM me your votes during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 10 will be for places 46 through 50 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Georges "Buck" Boucher
Carl Brewer
Harry Cameron
Fern Flaman
Harry Howell
Tom Johnson
Sylvio Mantha
Larry Murphy
Lester Patrick
Alexander Ragulin
Ken Reardon
Albert "Babe" Siebert
Allan Stanley
Jan Suchy
Doug Wilson

Please note that you are voting for your top 10 of the 15 available candidates.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Those new candidates sure bring the "wow" factor don't they?

Alexander Ragulin, really?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Those new candidates sure bring the "wow" factor don't they?

Alexander Ragulin, really?

With the possible exception of Lester Patrick, I agree that this is the weakest group of new candidates yet. Edit: and possibly Flaman

I can dismiss 3 of them off the bat:

Ragulin - should be significantly behind Suchy and Suchy isn't in yet.
Stanley - should be significantly behind teammate Brewer and Brewer isn't in yet
Howell - as one-Norris wonders go, he's a lot better than Randy Carlye, but worse than Tom Johnson, who isn't in yet.

Flaman vs. Tom Johnson could be an interesting discussion.

I'd consider Lester Patrick, but would need to be convinced that he should be ranked ahead of Boucher and Cameron to seriously consider it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Lester Patrick, Alexander, Ragulin, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included. Harry Cameron retired from the NHL in 1923, before the Hart Trophy was awarded, so he is not included.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Sylvio Mantha (1929-1934): 2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 7th
*2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1929
(Note that we don't have much beyond the top 2-4 Hart getters from 1923-1930).

Babe Siebert (1936-1939): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th*

Ken Reardon (1946-1950): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Fern Flaman (1955-1959): 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th
Allan Stanley (1956-1968): 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 10th, 12th**
Harry Howell (1956-1968): 1st, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th
Carl Brewer (1959-1965, 1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th***

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Doug Wilson (1982-1990): 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th

*Siebert as a LW/utility player (1926-1935): 1926: 14th in Hart voting. 1931: 2 votes for 1st Team LW, 1932: 1 vote for 1st Team, 1 vote for 2nd Team LW. All finishes listed above are as a defenseman.

**Stanley actually finished 3rd in All Star voting when he was 7th in Norris voting. It his very unusual for the difference to be that high. He was a 2nd Team All Star 3 times.

**Brewer spent prime seasons (aged 27-30) outside the NHL due to a feud with Punch Imlach. During his "free spirit" time, he was an All-Star at the World Championships among other accolades.


Obsevations:

• Babe Siebert is a very unique player. Spent 10 years as a utility player who usually played left wing but filled in at D when needed. Switched to D full-time at the end of his career and had an amazing short peak. 3 straight 1st Team All Stars followed by a 6th place finish in AS voting, then retired. Won the Hart and led all dmen in All Star votes in 1937. Was a very close 2nd to Eddie Shore in All Star voting in 1938 and finished 3rd in Hart voting.
• We have quite the battle of Original 6 defensemen going on!
• Ken Reardon is another unique player. Had two unspectacular seasons in 1941 and 1942, left to fight the war for 3 seasons, then returned and was immediately an all-star. 5 straight seasons as an all-star after he retured, then retired immediately.
• Fern Flaman has a very impressive 5 year run, but got no consideration outside that run.
• Tom Johnson won his Norris for stepping up the season his teammate, Doug Harvey, was injured and playing less effectively than usual.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All Star voting records:

Parenthesis indicated range of consideration. Note that when Norris votes aren't available, I'm using all-star votes indicated by italics. Lester Patrick, Alexander, Ragulin, and Jan Suchy never played in the NHL and are not included.

Harry Cameron retired from the NHL in 1923, before the Hart Trophy was awarded, so he is not included.

Georges Boucher: Hart voting didn't exist for most of his career. 2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1924 and 1925 when the NHL only had half the world's best players.

Sylvio Mantha (1929-1934): 2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 7th
*2nd in Hart voting among dmen in 1929
(Note that we don't have much beyond the top 2-4 Hart getters from 1923-1930).

Babe Siebert (1936-1939): 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 6th*

Ken Reardon (1946-1950): 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th

Tom Johnson (1954-1962): 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 11th
Fern Flaman (1955-1959): 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th
Allan Stanley (1956-1968): 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 10th, 12th
Harry Howell (1956-1968): 1st, 5th, 6th, 6th, 9th, 9th, 10th
Carl Brewer (1959-1965, 1970): 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 6th, 9th**

Larry Murphy (1981-1999): 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 11th
Doug Wilson (1982-1990): 1st, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 8th

Most top 2 finishes
3. Babe Siebert
2. Ken Reardon
1. Sylvio Mantha, Tom Johnson, Allan Stanley, Harry Howell, Carl Brewer, Doug Wilson
0. Fern Flaman, Larry Murphy

Most top 3 finishes
4. Ken Reardon
3. Babe Siebert, Fern Flaman
2. Sylvio Mantha, Allan Stanley, Carl Brewer, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
1. Tom Johnson, Harry Howell

Most top 5 finishes
5. Ken Reardon, Fern Flaman
4. Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
3. Sylvio Mantha*, Babe Siebert, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer
2. Allan Stanley, Harry Howell

Most placements (note that some of these are with only a couple of votes)
8. Allan Stanley
7. Harry Howell, Larry Murphy
6. Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer
5. Ken Reardon, Fern Flaman, Doug Wilson
4. Sylvio Mantha*, Babe Siebert

*Incomplete data for the first half of his career

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Glad to see Allan Stanley finally up for vote.

I guess I valued him much higher than most.

I thought Lutchenko would come up before Ragulin.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Early thoughts:

• I had both Suchy and Brewer in my top 5 last time. They enter the round my top 2 choices.
• Babe Siebert's peak looks awfully attractive right now.
• Reardon's record looks better than the 5 guys from the later Original 6, but how much of that is because his competition was quite a bit weaker?
• Still not sure what I think of Georges Boucher and Harry Cameron, but they definitely deserve to be talked about this round. Both deserved to be added after Moose Johnson; now Moose is in.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Glad to see Allan Stanley finally up for vote.

I guess I valued him much higher than most.

I thought Lutchenko would come up before Ragulin.

I had Lutchenko over Ragulin, as well.

IMO, neither is as good as the two Czech superstars Suchy and Pospisil.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Early thoughts:

• I had both Suchy and Brewer in my top 5 last time. They enter the round my top 2 choices.
• Babe Siebert's peak looks awfully attractive right now.
• Reardon's record looks better than the 5 guys from the later Original 6, but how much of that is because his competition was quite a bit weaker?
• Still not sure what I think of Georges Boucher and Harry Cameron, but they definitely deserve to be talked about this round. Both deserved to be added after Moose Johnson; now Moose is in.

Suchy, Brewer & Siebert were all in my top 5 last time.

I don't see anyone replacing them this time, but I'm open to a good case for someone else.

 

[MXD]

Okay....


I "had" Patrick, Ragulin and Howell getting in this round. The first two are Top-10 unless-shown-contrary, and Patrick is likely Top-5.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Most top 2 finishes
3. Babe Siebert
2. Ken Reardon
1. Sylvio Mantha, Tom Johnson, Allan Stanley, Harry Howell, Carl Brewer, Doug Wilson
0. Fern Flaman, Larry Murphy

Most top 3 finishes
4. Ken Reardon
3. Babe Siebert, Fern Flaman
2. Sylvio Mantha, Allan Stanley, Carl Brewer, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
1. Tom Johnson, Harry Howell

Most top 5 finishes
5. Ken Reardon, Fern Flaman
4. Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson
3. Sylvio Mantha*, Babe Siebert, Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer
2. Allan Stanley, Harry Howell

Most placements
8. Allan Stanley
7. Harry Howell, Larry Murphy
6. Tom Johnson, Carl Brewer
5. Ken Reardon, Fern Flaman, Doug Wilson
4. Sylvio Mantha*, Babe Siebert

*Incomplete data for the first half of his career

Stanley has 8 placements but lets put some context into it.

In a 6 team (25-30Dman) league he has a 2nd and a 3rd.

Then a 7th, 3 times 8th, a 10th and a 12th.

The last ones put 1/3 to close to 1/2 of all other Dmen in the NHL as better than him, it not being 10th in a fully integrated post 90 NHL.

At least Howell has a 1st but then has a 5th, 2 times 6th, two at 9th and one at 10th which is average to good but not great.

Flaman is pretty underwhelming with his finishes as well being 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th.

With competition like this Suchy might make it in my top 5 just from default as someone has to be there.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Okay....


I "had" Patrick, Ragulin and Howell getting in this round. The first two are Top-10 unless-shown-contrary, and Patrick is likely Top-5.

I'd be interested in hearing comments as to why those 3 are getting in, particularly Ragulin as his 4 all-star berths directly followed the 3 by Harry smith from Canada. Is Harry Smith under rated?

See my previous post about Howell and Patrick a top 5, I guess if we account for his off the ice accomplishments but not for anything he did on the ice IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd be interested in hearing comments as to why those 3 are getting in, particularly Ragulin as his 4 all-star berths directly followed the 3 by Harry smith from Canada. Is Harry Smith under rated?

.

Basically, and by the late 60s when Suchy and Svedberg came around, Ragulin couldn't sniff the All Star teams at the World Championships any more. Either his prime was over by the age of 26 (so much for his supposed longevity edge over Suchy), or (more likely) Suchy and probably Svedberg were simply better players.

I'll post more on this late, but all the criticism that Suchy got for competition (which IMO was largely misguided) actually does apply to Ragulin.

 

[MXD]

Okay....


I "had" Patrick, Ragulin and Howell getting in this round. The first two are Top-10 unless-shown-contrary, and Patrick is likely Top-5.

I was purely going by my list.
I'm certainly open to drop Ragulin.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Stanley has 8 placements but lets put some context into it.

My main objection to Stanley is that most of the time he got a very small number of votes that likely didn't represent the consensus of hockey analysts at the time.

- 1956: received 5 votes out of a possible 180 (2.8%)
- 1957: received 4 votes out of a possible 180 (2.2%)
- 1962: received 14 votes out of a possible 180 (7.8%)
- 1963: received 3 votes out of a possible 180 (1.7%)
- 1964: received 3 votes out of a possible 180 (1.7%)

Stanley received solid Norris consideration in three seasons.

- 1960: received 42 votes out of a possible 180 (23.3%) - second to Harvey
- 1961: received 27 votes out of a possible 180 (15.0%) - third to Harvey and Pronovost
- 1966: received 23 votes out of a possible 180 (12.8%) - seventh

Stanley should get credit for having a very strong two-year peak but was otherwise never close to being a contender for the Norris trophy.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Stanley has 8 placements but lets put some context into it.

In a 6 team (25-30Dman) league he has a 2nd and a 3rd.

Then a 7th, 3 times 8th, a 10th and a 12th.

The last ones put 1/3 to close to 1/2 of all other Dmen in the NHL as better than him, it not being 10th in a fully integrated post 90 NHL.

At least Howell has a 1st but then has a 5th, 2 times 6th, two at 9th and one at 10th which is average to good but not great.

Flaman is pretty underwhelming with his finishes as well being 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 5th.

With competition like this Suchy might make it in my top 5 just from default as someone has to be there.

So if we made a 6 team league now and took the 36 best Dmen, the guy who comes in 10th isn't really that good?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

World Championship All Star Teams 1961-1975

The source I copied this from had them in reverse order.

1975 | Vladislav Tretiak (URS) | Pekka Marjamaki (FIN) | Valeri Vasilyev (URS) | Vladimir Martinec (TCH) | Vladimir Petrov (URS) | Alexander Yakushev (URS)
1974 | Curt Larsson (SWE) | Lars-Erik Sjoberg (SWE) | Valeri Vasilyev (URS) | Vladimir Martinec (TCH) | Vaclav Nedomansky (TCH) | Alexander Yakushev (URS)
1973 | Jiri Holecek (TCH) | Alexander Gusev (URS) | Borje Salming (SWE) | Valeri Kharlamov (URS) | Boris Mikhailov (URS) | Vladimir Petrov (URS)
1972 | Jiri Holecek (TCH) | Oldrich Machac (TCH) | Frantisek Pospisil (TCH) | Valeri Kharlamov (URS) | Alexander Maltsev (URS) | Vladimir Vikulov (URS)
1971 | Jiri Holecek (TCH) | Ilpo Koskela (FIN) | Jan Suchy (TCH) | Anatoli Firsov (URS) | Alexander Maltsev (URS) | Vladimir Vikulov (URS)
1970 | Victor Konovalenko (URS) | Jan Suchy (TCH) | Lennart Svedberg (SWE) | Anatoli Firsov (URS) | Alexander Maltsev (URS) | Vaclav Nedomansky (TCH)
1969 | Vladimir Dzurilla (TCH) | Jan Suchy (TCH) | Lennart Svedberg (SWE) | Anatoli Firsov (URS) | Vaclav Nedomansky (TCH) | Ulf Sterner (SWE)
1968 | Ken Broderick (CAN) | Jan Suchy (TCH) | Lennart Svedberg (SWE) | Anatoli Firsov (URS) | Fran Huck (CAN) | Frantisek Sevcik (TCH)
1967 | Carl Wetzel (USA) | Carl Brewer (CAN) | Alexander Ragulin (URS) | Venjamin Alexandrov (URS) | Alexander Almetov (URS) | Anatoli Firsov (URS)
1966 | Seth Martin (CAN) | Gary Begg (CAN) | Alexander Ragulin (URS) | Venjamin Alexandrov (URS) | Fran Huck (CAN) | Konstantin Loktev (URS)
1965 | Vladimir Dzurilla (TCH) | Alexander Ragulin (URS) | Frantisek Tikal (TCH) | Alexander Almetov (URS) | Jaroslav Jirik (TCH) | Konstantin Loktev (URS)
1964 | Seth Martin (CAN) | Alexander Ragulin (URS) | Rod Seiling (CAN) | Roger Bourbonnais (CAN) | Josef Cerny (TCH) | Viktor Yakushev (URS)
1963 | Kjell Svensson (SWE) | Alexander Ragulin (URS) | Harry Smith (CAN) | Hasse Mild (SWE) | Adolph Tambellini (CAN) | Mirolsav Vlach (TCH)
1962 | Lennart Haggroth (SWE) | Jack Douglas (CAN) | Harry Smith (CAN) | Jackie McLeod (CAN) | Nisse Nilsson (SWE) | Ulf Sterner (SWE)
1961 | Seth Martin (CAN) | Darryl Sly (CAN) | Harry Smith (CAN) | Michel Legacé (CAN) | Boris Mayorov (URS) | Mirolsav Vlach (TCH)

Ragulin was named Best Defenseman in 1965. Suchy was named best defenseman in 1969 and 1971.

From the table above, you can see just how weak competition was when Ragulin started racking up his All Stars - all those Canadians and Americans were amateurs.

You can also see how Ragulin's last year as a WC All Star was 1967. By 1968, Jan Suchy and Lennart Svedberg began a run where they owned the All Star slots and by the 1970s, competition was very strong.

From the table above, you can see just how dramatically competition improved between 1967 and 1969 as the new generation took over. Anatoli Firsov, declared by this board a top 100 player of all-time got his first All Star nod in 1967. This is also around when European teams started dominating the Worlds.

Alexander Ragulin was 26 years in 1967, the last time he was an All Star at the World Championships. He was a Soviet League All Star 9 of 11 seasons from 1961-1972, which is what his legacy is based off of. But compared to Europe as a whole, his USSR accolades seem like the result of being the big fish in a smaller pond, as he was completely overtaken by Suchy and Svedberg at the age of 27.

Conclusion: The WC All Star Teams support the anecdotal evidence that Jan Suchy was a significantly better player than Ragulin. Ragulin racked up his all-star teams against a weaker generation of players and was clearly surpassed by Suchy when he was only 27 years old.

Suchy and Svedberg both had their reigns ended by car accidents.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

REPOST FROM LAST ROUND

This might be a useful way of comparing non-NHL Europeans during the Golden Age of European Hockey. Anything can happen in a tournament, so I don't think getting one award is meaningful. But getting recognized for multiple excellent tournaments shows a level of consistent greatness.

1966 is approximately when the players who were in their prime for the Summit Series started to come of age and 1991 is when the Soviet Union collapsed and all the best players became consolidated in the NHL. I didn't make up these cut off points - I've seen them before on this board.

Most Times named Directorate Best Defenseman at the World Championships 1966-1991

5. Slava Fetisov
3. Valeri Vasiliev
2. Jan Suchy
2. Frantisek Pospisil

Most Times named to World Championship All Star Teams 1966-1991

9. Slava Fetisov
5. Valeri Vasiliev
5. Alexei Kasatonov
4. Jan Suchy
3. Frantisek Pospisil
3. Lennart Svedberg
2. Jiri Bubla
2. Alexander Ragulin (plus 3 more 1963-1965 for 5 total)

Suchy has the best record of any available European of the era. Only Pospisil and possibly Svedberg are close. Svedberg was Suchy's contemporary and every source we have says that Suchy was the best defenseman of his time. Pospisil was a fellow Czech whose career overlapped a bit with Suchy's and every source we have indicates that Suchy was more highly thought of.

I also find it noteworthy that Vladimir Lutchenko, the 2nd best Soviet defenseman of the 1970s (according to Soviet league All Star voting) didn't make a single all-star team at the WCs and was never named best defenseman by the Directorate.

Conclusion: Jan Suchy has the best record at the World Championships during the Golden Age of European hockey of anyone not yet added.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Basically, and by the late 60s when Suchy and Svedberg came around, Ragulin couldn't sniff the All Star teams at the World Championships any more. Either his prime was over by the age of 26 (so much for his supposed longevity edge over Suchy), or (more likely) Suchy and probably Svedberg were simply better players.

I'll post more on this late, but all the criticism that Suchy got for competition (which IMO was largely misguided) actually does apply to Ragulin.

While I'm one of those who does think that it does apply to Suchy, there is no doubt that it applies a ton more to Ragulin.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So if we made a 6 team league now and took the 36 best Dmen, the guy who comes in 10th isn't really that good?

No because if we did that today, you'd be talking about an integrated league with quite a few players from non Canadian feeder markets like the US and Europe and that's before we get into the increased number of Jr Teams providing top development for the NHL for the Canadian only kids.

That being said taking the top 36 Canadian Dmen today and comparing 10th with 10th from the 06 era would be a much more fair comparison generally.

i just took the top scoring Dman for a recent season and looked at the 8, 9 and 10th top scoring Canadian Dmen

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

There were 20, 24, 26 overall and named Delorme, Aucoin and Morris.

I probably lucked into a fluke year but you get teh point on how much non Canadian talent can affect these things by this.

I ran last year as well which is probably better for Canadian content

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Actually 7 of the top 10 are non Canadians and the 8,9 and 10th Canucks were JM Liles (16), Duncan Keith (18) and Mark Giordano (20th). the top Canuck was James Wisniewski in 5th with a career year.

It just goes to show how the affect of having 30 teams with 30 PP units how these things can fluctuate quite a bit IMO.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

No because if we did that today, you'd be talking about an integrated league with quite a few players from non Canadian feeder markets like the US and Europe and that's before we get into the increased number of Jr Teams providing top development for the NHL for the Canadian only kids.

That being said taking the top 36 Canadian Dmen today and comparing 10th with 10th from the 06 era would be a much more fair comparison generally.

I actually agree with the bolded. When you get as far down as the 10th best player at a certain position, the increased talent pool from outside of Canada absolutely makes a difference.

I added those 10th place finishes for the O6ers to be complete, but I don't consider them very meaningful.

 

[Reks]

Just a side note.
1964 all stars, I think, it's Viktor Yakushev, not Alexander Yakushev.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I actually agree with the bolded. When you get as far down as the 10th best player at a certain position, the increased talent pool from outside of Canada absolutely makes a difference.

I added those 10th place finishes for the O6ers to be complete, but I don't consider them very meaningful.

IMO, it's that lack of "meaningfulness" that really matters. The 10th best dman in an O6 season was probably pretty good, but there's no reason to think it was Allen Stanley just because a couple of journalists threw votes his way.

After about 4th or 5th, I stop paying attention to the order.