Prospect Info: Round 1, Pick 2: Nolan Patrick, C, Brandon (WHL)

[04' hockey]

Or we could package him with Hagg and get a true difference maker in Duchene.

reside in Denver do you ?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I left out Marleau and Pavelski because they are wingers in effect. Marleau has not played a single year at C over that span and Pavelski ~played 2.

And Brad Richards? Produced less and is worse defensively over that span. There were maybe 2 years of those 8 that Richards was better than Krejci.

And Seguin... now he is, but 13-14 was first season he was better, over the whole timespan it would be Krejci.

I cannot logically see him below ~20 over that span.

Man, I think it's just flat out incorrect to classify Joe Pavelski a majority winger from 2008 through 2015/16.

I know they played him on Thornton's wing a decent amount, but I still think overall he spent more time as a center. The guy had 4 seasons of over 1000 faceoffs in those 8 seasons, and was only under 800 faceoffs once in 8 seasons.

Regardless, I'd personally rank him a little above Krejci as a center, though very close.

I'll grant you Marleau as a majority winger during that span -- I thought he played more center going back to the first half of that time period, but looks like he spent about half the season at center from 08-11, then has been mostly wing since.

As for Brad Richards, Krejci averaged only 0.02 more points per game, and Richards potted 18 more goals in one more game over the period in question. (Also includes two seasons where Richards was 33 and 34 and had his ppg killed by 37 and 28 pt seasons).

If you go primes, I'd say Brad Richards in his prime was slightly better than David Krejci in his prime. And even though Richards was a heck of a player with a Conn Smythe and a Cup, I always think of him as a really good #2C, not a guy you build your team around, which is exactly how I view Krejci. I'm hoping Patrick can be a guy you build your team around. My hopes are probably too high.

 

[Flyotes]

Duchene is fast and flashy. All tools; no toolbox.

There has been a lot of criticism to that effect.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Man, I think it's just flat out incorrect to classify Joe Pavelski a majority winger from 2008 through 2015/16.

I know they played him on Thornton's wing a decent amount, but I still think overall he spent more time as a center. The guy had 4 seasons of over 1000 faceoffs in those 8 seasons, and was only under 800 faceoffs once in 8 seasons.

15-16: Wing all year
14-15: ~70 games at Wing
13-14: ~50 games at Wing
12-13: ~70% spent at Wing
11-12: Wing all year
10-11: The second half of the year, I really don't remember who played C on the line with Mitchell and Wellwood since they all could. In the first half, he was about half on the Wing and half at C.
09-10: Centered Clowe and Setoguchi

 

[Ghosts Beer]

15-16: Wing all year
14-15: ~70 games at Wing
13-14: ~50 games at Wing
12-13: ~70% spent at Wing
11-12: Wing all year
10-11: The second half of the year, I really don't remember who played C on the line with Mitchell and Wellwood since they all could. In the first half, he was about half on the Wing and half at C.
09-10: Centered Clowe and Setoguchi

What are you basing this on? Your memory?

The period we're discussing goes 08/09 through 15/16:

Pavelski took the 34th most faceoffs in the entire NHL during that span.

And it's wrong for me to compare him to Krejci, because Pavelski isn't a center? Is that the argument you want to make for the guy who took the 34th most faceoffs in the league during the period in question? Come on now.

(Krejci, btw, in the same span ranks 30th in faceoffs taken. So he's only 4 spots ahead of Pavelski.)

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Lines are available going back to '08. I was running out the door, so I had to stop there. I can get the other ones later if you'd like.

 

[varano]

what does everyone expect patricks role to be? Is he a top six player this year? Is he Centre?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Lines are available going back to '08. I was running out the door, so I had to stop there. I can get the other ones later if you'd like.

I'll ask again: What's the point you're trying to make?

That the guy who ranked 34th in the NHL in faceoffs taken from 08/09 through 15/16 cannot be compared as a center to the guy who ranked 30th? (And Krejci only played 38 fewer games than Pavelski during those eight years, btw.)

If that's your argument, it's on its face ludicrous.

This is where Pavelski ranked on the Sharks in faceoffs during the years in question:

15/16: 1st (ahead of Thornton)
14/15: 1st (ahead of Thornton)
13/14: 1st (ahead of Thornton)
12/13: 2nd
11/12: 3rd
10/11: 2nd
09/10: 3rd (11 behind Nichol)
08/09: 2nd

Can't rank him as a center, eh?

 

[PALE PWNR]

what does everyone expect patricks role to be? Is he a top six player this year? Is he Centre?

He'll center his own line. Giroux Couturier and Patricks lines will probably all see similar ice time at ES. Not sure where he fits in on the PP. We hired a new PP coach who is likely to change things.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

I'll ask again: What's the point you're trying to make?

That the guy who ranked 34th in the NHL in faceoffs taken from 08/09 through 15/16 cannot be compared as a center to the guy who ranked 30th? (And Krejci only played 38 fewer games than Pavelski during those eight years, btw.)

If that's your argument, it's on its face ludicrous.

Could be that him and Thornton both took faceoffs on their strong side.

 

[Appleyard]

Could be that him and Thornton both took faceoffs on their strong side.

Yep... Pavelski is such a good faceoff man that he often takes faceoffs for his line even when he plays the whole game at wing.

But he is a winger.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Could be that him and Thornton both took faceoffs on their strong side.

How many guys who have taken the number of faceoffs Pavelski has in the years in question would you say cannot be ranked as a center?

 

[Appleyard]

As for Brad Richards, Krejci averaged only 0.02 more points per game, and Richards potted 18 more goals in one more game over the period in question. (Also includes two seasons where Richards was 33 and 34 and had his ppg killed by 37 and 28 pt seasons).

If you go primes, I'd say Brad Richards in his prime was slightly better than David Krejci in his prime. And even though Richards was a heck of a player with a Conn Smythe and a Cup, I always think of him as a really good #2C, not a guy you build your team around, which is exactly how I view Krejci. I'm hoping Patrick can be a guy you build your team around. My hopes are probably too high.

Man, I think your standards are just unrealistically high...

Brad Richards in prime just a good 2C?

From 2002-2011 he was undoubtedly a 1C. Legit one as well. He had the 11th highest PPG on ANY center in the league over that span. And the 5th most points overall. I mean, his D let him down but he was pretty consistently top ~15-20 centers in the NHL for almost a decade.

11-12 to 13-14... yeh, he was a good 2C.


And Richards in his true prime was better than Krejci... but over the span of 08-16 if I could choose one to have it would be Krejci.

 

[Appleyard]

How many guys who have taken the number of faceoffs Pavelski has in the years in question would you say cannot be ranked as a center?

Ones who when the play starts move over to wing.

If he is on a line with Thornton, Hertl or Couture... those guys play up the middle.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'll ask again: What's the point you're trying to make?

That he's mostly been a Wing and sometimes a Center. That's it. I'm not calling you an idiot or making a personal challenge or anything.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Man, I think your standards are just unrealistically high...

Brad Richards in prime just a good 2C?

From 2002-2011 he was undoubtedly a 1C. Legit one as well. He had the 11th highest PPG on ANY center in the league over that span. And the 5th most points overall. I mean, his D let him down but he was pretty consistently top ~15-20 centers in the NHL for almost a decade.

11-12 to 13-14... yeh, he was a good 2C.


And Richards in his true prime was better than Krejci... but over the span of 08-16 if I could choose one to have it would be Krejci.

A very good 2C. Meaning I wouldn't want my team built around Brad Richards. But I'd still love to have him in a 1-2 punch. It's the same with Krejci.

If Brad Richards or David Krejci is the best forward on your team, I don't think that's what you want if you want. I'm hoping Nolan Patrick is more of a cornerstone. I think my position is understandable, even if you'd be thrilled with Patrick being a Krejci type.

I'd rather have Patrick be Bergeron that Krejci.

 

[Curufinwe]

Bergeron will probably end up in the Hall of Fame. I would also like Patrick to be a Hall of Famer.

He'll center his own line. Giroux Couturier and Patricks lines will probably all see similar ice time at ES. Not sure where he fits in on the PP. We hired a new PP coach who is likely to change things.

I think Giroux and Couturier will average close to 15 minutes at ES, and Patrick will be around 13.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Ones who when the play starts move over to wing.

If he is on a line with Thornton, Hertl or Couture... those guys play up the middle.

BTW, looks like my earlier stats were a little off. Pavelski has actually taken more draws than Krejci from 08/09 through 15/16:

1 plekanec
2 bergeron
3 koivu
4 toews
5 crosby
6 vermette
7 kopitar
8 sedin
9 kesler
10 giroux
11 staal
12 stastny
13 backstrom
14 getzlaf
15 spezza
16 j staal
17 zajac
18 fisher
19 tavares
20 stoll
21 bozak
22 little
23 backes
24 thornton
25 mcclement
26 datsyuk
27 pavelski
28 krejci

I don't think you'd say calling any other of those guys a center is outlandish. Really astounds me that people want to consider Pavelski a wing only.

Pavelski has played more than enough center over the years in question to be able to rank him as one.

 

[The Burdened]

disgusting @ Matt Duchene

 

[Appleyard]

A very good 2C. Meaning I wouldn't want my team built around Brad Richards. But I'd still love to have him in a 1-2 punch. It's the same with Krejci.

If Brad Richards or David Krejci is the best forward on your team, I don't think that's what you want if you want. I'm hoping Nolan Patrick is more of a cornerstone. I think my position is understandable, even if you'd be thrilled with Patrick being a Krejci type.

I'd rather have Patrick be Bergeron that Krejci.

Tampa were damn good with him at 1C...

He was the 1C there really, not Vinny, for pretty much their entire time together in Tampa.

Heck, Richards and Krecji both won cups while playing as their teams 1C! They were the go to guys over Vinny and Bergeron during those seasons.


I mean, I would love Patrick to be better than them... but I would be very, very happy if Patrick ends up a top ~15 center in the NHL who either gets 65-70pts and is great defensively or is a ~75-85pt (year on year) forward for close to a decade.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Tampa were damn good with him at 1C...

He was the 1C there really, not Vinny, for pretty much their entire time together in Tampa.

I always considered Lecavalier that team's horse. I know a couple seasons Richards out-pointed him, but overall I think Vinny was their #1A and Richards was a killer on the PP.

Vinny still outpointed Richards 507-489 during Richards' tenure.

They had identical ES/TOI, but to me Vinny was 1A, who they built around, and Richards was the Cup-caliber 1B you need.

If Patrick is Krejci or Richards, then I think you're still in search of that Cup-caliber franchise centerman. I fully admitted in this thread my expectations are probably too high, but I'm hoping with Patrick that search can end.

And as for the Pavelski-Thornton debate, here's a quote from a 15/16 playoffs article:

"San Jose Sharks forward Joe Thornton is no longer a full-time center.

Thornton plays on the Sharks' top line, but captain Joe Pavelski assumes most of the center-ice assignments. Tomas Hertl, the third natural center on the line, plays most of his time on the wing opposite Thornton."

And to be fair, I'll add Thornton's quote:
"Well, to be honest with you, I think we have three centers," Thornton said of his line. "I don't think any of us are wingers. I think Tomas is a center, [Pavelski] is a center, I'm a center. Whoever takes the faceoff is the center at that particular moment. We all call ourselves centermen. Call me center, please."

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

A very good 2C. Meaning I wouldn't want my team built around Brad Richards. But I'd still love to have him in a 1-2 punch. It's the same with Krejci.

If Brad Richards or David Krejci is the best forward on your team, I don't think that's what you want if you want. I'm hoping Nolan Patrick is more of a cornerstone. I think my position is understandable, even if you'd be thrilled with Patrick being a Krejci type.

I'd rather have Patrick be Bergeron that Krejci.

Didn't they both have couple of conn smythe runs in the past? I'll gladly take that over someone like Nash or Pacioretty.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

disgusting @ Matt Duchene

What happened?

 

[The Burdened]

What happened?

the suggestion that we trade Patrick & Hagg for Duchene.
even though it was sarcasm, it's just so.... gross.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not worried about Patrick being an elite center, if he's just a solid 30-30 plus defensive guy that will be just fine.
The Flyers for the next decade should be four deep or more at center:
Giroux, Patrick, Couts, Filppula [Laughton, Lehtera]
Giroux, Patrick, Couts, Vorobyev
Patrick, Couts, Rubtsov, Frost, Vorobyev

With that kind of talent up the middle (and an abundance of forwards to go with them) Patrick is not going to carry the team offensively.

And not to mention Ghost, Sanheim, Provorov, Myers and Friedman, it's not like we're going to have a paucity of speed and skill on defense!