Line Combos: Roster Discussions

[Mortimer Snerd]

The Hawks bridged Kane and Toews to enable them to keep winning. But at the end they had to hand out the big money contract and it has completely handicapped their depth. I think I'd trade a few years of being handicapped to win some cups. Rather then being handicapped right from the get go like Edmonton is.

I think both of those teams made some mistakes on those contracts. I'll grant the Kane and McD contracts but I think both Toews and Draisaitl were overpays. A couple of mil less to each team wouldn't make a huge difference in the big picture but every little bit helps.

I think Laine will be our 1 really big contract and we should be able to manage it. Our real problem, Chevy's real problem is managing the last contracts to each of the older players.

He has done well so far. Buff's 5 year term is looking good right now. Matty P's contract looks great. I hope it can be moved after next year. Little, I'm not sure of right now. I think it might be 1 year too long and I hope this is just an off year and not a trend. Myers is a bit of a puzzle but Wheeler could be a huge decision depending on how long he can stay near peak performance. Then of course there is Trouba. I sure hope he has decided that he wants to win cups here and signs long term for a mutually fair amount ....... but, KO, daddy, GF, etc.

Lots of moving pieces, all interweaving and overlapping.

 

[Daximus]

I think both of those teams made some mistakes on those contracts. I'll grant the Kane and McD contracts but I think both Toews and Draisaitl were overpays. A couple of mil less to each team wouldn't make a huge difference in the big picture but every little bit helps.

I think Laine will be our 1 really big contract and we should be able to manage it. Our real problem, Chevy's real problem is managing the last contracts to each of the older players.

He has done well so far. Buff's 5 year term is looking good right now. Matty P's contract looks great. I hope it can be moved after next year. Little, I'm not sure of right now. I think it might be 1 year too long and I hope this is just an off year and not a trend. Myers is a bit of a puzzle but Wheeler could be a huge decision depending on how long he can stay near peak performance. Then of course there is Trouba. I sure hope he has decided that he wants to win cups here and signs long term for a mutually fair amount ....... but, KO, daddy, GF, etc.

Lots of moving pieces, all interweaving and overlapping.

Chevy is really going to earn his pay over the next few years. He got us the talent, now he has to be able to retain it while staying competitive. I have a feeling we will eventually have a few cap casualties. Chicago was able to skirt the rules a bit with the Keith and Hossa contracts and they still had cap casualties. We won't be that lucky.

 

[raideralex99]

A lot will depend on the rest of this season and the PO's. I think his recent hot stretch is padding his bank account.

I dislike the terms 'team friendly contract' and 'home team discount'. I honestly think that those are about as rare as hen's teeth. If people are talking about a player leaving 1 or 2 mil x 8 years on the table you need to look at the total, not the AAV. That is 8-16 million dollars. Nobody leaves that there.

There are other factors, like local taxes and potential endorsements.

Taxes are big ... players really need a good accountant before signing if they were smart.
California is the worst place to play ... I'm surprise any player signs there for example Raiders QB Derek Carr. He will save/make $8.7 million on his 5 year contract when the Raiders move to Vegas ... that $1.74 million a season more just by playing in another state.

I know when I moved from Winnipeg to Vancouver 20 years ago ... I had the same job same paid but more money and the only difference was less taxes plus more bonuses.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think both of those teams made some mistakes on those contracts. I'll grant the Kane and McD contracts but I think both Toews and Draisaitl were overpays. A couple of mil less to each team wouldn't make a huge difference in the big picture but every little bit helps.

I think Laine will be our 1 really big contract and we should be able to manage it. Our real problem, Chevy's real problem is managing the last contracts to each of the older players.

He has done well so far. Buff's 5 year term is looking good right now. Matty P's contract looks great. I hope it can be moved after next year. Little, I'm not sure of right now. I think it might be 1 year too long and I hope this is just an off year and not a trend. Myers is a bit of a puzzle but Wheeler could be a huge decision depending on how long he can stay near peak performance. Then of course there is Trouba. I sure hope he has decided that he wants to win cups here and signs long term for a mutually fair amount ....... but, KO, daddy, GF, etc.

Lots of moving pieces, all interweaving and overlapping.

Saying that Toews was an overpayment undervalues both intangibles such as D as Toews was always a top 2 way player, and intangibles. Toews is considered a great leader.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think both of those teams made some mistakes on those contracts. I'll grant the Kane and McD contracts but I think both Toews and Draisaitl were overpays. A couple of mil less to each team wouldn't make a huge difference in the big picture but every little bit helps.

I think Laine will be our 1 really big contract and we should be able to manage it. Our real problem, Chevy's real problem is managing the last contracts to each of the older players.

He has done well so far. Buff's 5 year term is looking good right now. Matty P's contract looks great. I hope it can be moved after next year. Little, I'm not sure of right now. I think it might be 1 year too long and I hope this is just an off year and not a trend. Myers is a bit of a puzzle but Wheeler could be a huge decision depending on how long he can stay near peak performance. Then of course there is Trouba. I sure hope he has decided that he wants to win cups here and signs long term for a mutually fair amount ....... but, KO, daddy, GF, etc.

Lots of moving pieces, all interweaving and overlapping.

Would really love Buff's money going to Trouba in the future. I think you could even get Trouba a bit cheaper to afford the Armias and Connors.

 

[Daximus]

Saying that Toews was an overpayment undervalues both intangibles such as D as Toews was always a top 2 way player, and intangibles. Toews is considered a great leader.

He was an overpayment though. He was paid based on team accomplishments. You don't pay a 60~ point Selke level Center $10 mil a season.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Points influence pay but a Dman doesn't need the same points as a F for the same contract. He is expected to play D some of the time.

Buff is on a 53 point pace. That would have been ~5th in the league for Dmen last year. He has also been excellent defensively, at least for the last 20-30 games.

I don't know if his D got better after he finally got his first goal of the season or if it was after the injuries started. Whatever the trigger he has been playing some of his best hockey ever in the last 2-3 months. Maybe he has just realized that, with the offense we have from the rest of the team, he no longer needs to take risks to help the team score.

I hope it is that last because he has been outstanding defensively and is still scoring. A full season of this and we would be talking about Norris Buff.

Forwards are also expected to play D some of the time too, I would hope. Yet, Buff has not won a Norris and yet we are talking about him like he has. In terms of scoring this season he is 23rd on the list. He only has 5 goals. Whether he would have got more on the open market is a different question than whether we are getting 7mil worth of playing out of him and I would argue we are not. You said he played 20-30 games great D a 7+ mil D you expect him to at least give you 50 great D games on the season.

 

[Adam da bomb]

He was an overpayment though. He was paid based on team accomplishments. You don't pay a 60~ point Selke level Center $10 mil a season.

Not as bad of an overpayment as 7.8 mil for a defenseman who is only 23rd on the list when it comes to D scoring.

 

[Daximus]

Not as bad of an overpayment as 7.8 mil for a defenseman who is only 23rd on the list when it comes to D scoring.

I'd say so. That is essentially 2 or 3 more guys they can't keep at the bottom of the lineup just for keeping Toews. Depth is really important when competing for a cup.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'd say so. That is essentially 2 or 3 more guys they can't keep at the bottom of the lineup just for keeping Toews. Depth is really important when competing for a cup.

For a guy who won 2 cups, a Selke, a playoff MVP, a league mvp compared to our guy who cost us 2 young guys and has limited hardware on his shelf.

 

[Daximus]

For a guy who won 2 cups, a Selke, a playoff MVP, a league mvp compared to our guy who cost us 2 young guys and has limited hardware on his shelf.

Who did Buff cost us?

Also Toews has won 3 cups, and has never won a league MVP.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Who did Buff cost us?

Also Toews has won 3 cups, and has never won a league MVP.

3 cups. That's a lot. You could afford a copp and Morrissey for the price of a Buff who has 1cup as a forward. Did I forget to mention Buff is 23rd in the list of D and points? For 6 mil he would be a bargain but 7 mil with 5 goals? For the price of Laine you could have chef and Connor or Ehlers and Lowry.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Who did Buff cost us?

Also Toews has won 3 cups, and has never won a league MVP.

The same theoretical guys that Toews contract meant they couldn't keep for depth.

 

[Daximus]

The same theoretical guys that Toews contract meant they couldn't keep for depth.

No they actually lost guys because of those contracts.

 

[Daximus]

3 cups. That's a lot. You could afford a copp and Morrissey for the price of a Buff who has 1cup as a forward. Did I forget to mention Buff is 23rd in the list of D and points? For 6 mil he would be a bargain but 7 mil with 5 goals? For the price of Laine you could have chef and Connor or Ehlers and Lowry.

While I do agree Buff is overpayed it's not by much and certainly won't handicap us to much. We can still trade him if need be. Buff brings more than just points.

 

[Adam da bomb]

While I do agree Buff is overpayed it's not by much and certainly won't handicap us to much. We can still trade him if need be. Buff brings more than just points.

Toews brings more than just points. Hence the Selke. I honestly don't know how easy it would be to move someone his age, at his price, who would be worth the return other than just cap relief. You may know differently.

 

[Daximus]

Toews brings more than just points. Hence the Selke. I honestly don't know how easy it would be to move someone his age, at his price, who would be worth the return other than just cap relief. You may know differently.

I'd imagine there would be a tonne of GM's who would love to get Buff.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Taxes are big ... players really need a good accountant before signing if they were smart.
California is the worst place to play ... I'm surprise any player signs there for example Raiders QB Derek Carr. He will save/make $8.7 million on his 5 year contract when the Raiders move to Vegas ... that $1.74 million a season more just by playing in another state.

I know when I moved from Winnipeg to Vancouver 20 years ago ... I had the same job same paid but more money and the only difference was less taxes plus more bonuses.

Minus the cost of a home in Vancouver. Bonuses don't count.

Lots of issues involved there but taxes can make a big difference.

 

[Maukkis]

There are still people who do not understand that if we had this thing called Buff @ 6 AAV, we would now be complaining about the six years of term he would have left after this year?

It was a choice between too much money and too much term, and Chevy chose the more sensible option, given the context. With a big chunk of cap space available, you can sacrifice a bit extra to reduce the risk of SEVERELY overpaying later on.

E: To illustrate, having that 1.6 million on the books can be considered as downgrading from Armia to anyone on an ELC for three years (~2.5 > 0.9, for the argument's sake). That is for five years. Now, does anybody want to guess which procedures it would take to clear cap for Buff's 6 million later on? Ehlers? Trouba? Morrissey? A lot of depth?

 

[Adam da bomb]

There are still people who do not understand that if we had this thing called Buff @ 6 AAV, we would now be complaining about the six years of term he would have left after this year?

It was a choice between too much money and too much term, and Chevy chose the more sensible option, given the context. With a big chunk of cap space available, you can sacrifice a bit extra to reduce the risk of SEVERELY overpaying later on.

E: To illustrate, having that 1.6 million on the books can be considered as downgrading from Armia to anyone on an ELC for three years (~2.5 > 0.9, for the argument's sake). That is for five years. Now, does anybody want to guess which procedures it would take to clear cap for Buff's 6 million later on? Ehlers? Trouba? Morrissey? A lot of depth?

No I don't think you get it. I want Buff for 4 years at 6.8 million. You seem to think that there is a magic number he is entitled to make and so we either need to take term or money to make up that amount. I say to heck with those restrictions.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I'd imagine there would be a tonne of GM's who would love to get Buff.

At that price at that age? When they could get Burns who is similar age, similar price but this season has a lot more points?

 

[Daximus]

At that price at that age? When they could get Burns who is similar age, similar price but this season has a lot more points?

Burns also has a 3 team trade list. So it limits the Sharks options in moving him immensely.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Burns also has a 3 team trade list. So it limits the Sharks options in moving him immensely.

Doesn't Buff have a NMC which reduces it even further.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

Doesn't Buff have a NMC which reduces it even further.

14 team no trade list after this year. His contract is moveable. It wasn't a horrible overpayment given that fact, and the contract length. He's still an extremely useful player, and he left money on the table as a UFA.

If his contract prevents us from signing someone more important in future, move him.

 

[Daximus]

Doesn't Buff have a NMC which reduces it even further.

Buff has a 14 team no trade list. Which leaves 16 teams we can trade him to and with Seattle expansion looming that would be 17 teams. Far more than the 3 that Burns CAN be traded too.