Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[majormajor]

boqvist + a pick or prospect.

If Utah wants to take the other side of that deal then sure.

Though I expect they would rather keep Bjugstad. And with Durzi on board I don't think Boqvist would be interesting for them.

I think a team closer to the start or mid rebuild might be more interested in Boqvist, maybe San Jose.

If we're doing wish lists, I'd love for us to figure a way to trade for either Lehkonen or Nichushkin from Colorado.

I have no idea how realistic it might be, or if there's even a reason the Avs might consider such a thing.

There isn't any reason those two would be available, but I agree that player type is what we're looking for.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Regarding the too many forwards parts, the main challenge for the new GM in the years to come is going to be smartly using the many good young players and prospects on this team to acquire some really fantastic players, i.e. turning quantity into quality.

weirdly i think that having Too Many Young Forwards acquired through the draft carries a hefty opportunity cost that most teams haven't caught up to just yet.

the lack of roster flexibility limits opportunities for the NHL roster to improve via pro scouting. florida's a great example of this – they've traded away a ton of their pipeline, but have found a ton of value in other teams' discarded players.

it's a long list, too. off the top of my head:

• verhaeghe (UFA)
• forsling (waiver claim)
• montour (traded a 3rd round pick for him)
• marchment (AHL player swap)
• bennett (2nd + prospect)
• reinhart (late 1st + goalie prospect)
• duclair (cheap UFA)
• vatrano (traded a 3rd for him)
• gudas (UFA)
• OEL (UFA -- doing really well this year)

they've been able to identify players who were significantly undervalued on the market, acquire them, and put them in roles that are perfectly aligned to their skillset. it's a mix of:

1. available opportunity on the roster
2. pro scouting that can identify fits for those roles
3. alignment between hockey ops and coaching staff

the jackets could have the best pro scouting team in the world for all we know, but it's not going to yield similar results unless there's opportunity and alignment with the staff.

 

[squashmaple]

One reason why I actually want Vincent to stay another season is that he has a whole year of feedback to give to the new GM about what he thinks he lacks on the roster. He should then get another season to prove that he can do better with the suggested improvements. One thing he has mentioned several times is how light the Blue Jackets are. Dillon would certainly help with that and probably with the PK.

While I actually am one of those overly optimistic types who believe that Mateychuk is ready for the NHL next year, I would still be pro acquiring Dillon. My ideal off-season would probably include something like trade Provorov to LA for their 1st rounder, use it to draft Surin and then sign Dillon as a UFA on a two-year deal. They have the cap space to offer him more money than most teams.

I don't think trading Provorov to LA is possible, unfortunately. They're already retaining on him from the original trade. I'm not looking up the CBA to find out, though.

 

[majormajor]

weirdly i think that having Too Many Young Forwards acquired through the draft carries a hefty opportunity cost that most teams haven't caught up to just yet.

the lack of roster flexibility limits opportunities for the NHL roster to improve via pro scouting. florida's a great example of this – they've traded away a ton of their pipeline, but have found a ton of value in other teams' discarded players.

it's a long list, too. off the top of my head:

• verhaeghe (UFA)
• forsling (waiver claim)
• montour (traded a 3rd round pick for him)
• marchment (AHL player swap)
• bennett (2nd + prospect)
• reinhart (late 1st + goalie prospect)
• duclair (cheap UFA)
• vatrano (traded a 3rd for him)
• gudas (UFA)
• OEL (UFA -- doing really well this year)

they've been able to identify players who were significantly undervalued on the market, acquire them, and put them in roles that are perfectly aligned to their skillset. it's a mix of:

1. available opportunity on the roster
2. pro scouting that can identify fits for those roles
3. alignment between hockey ops and coaching staff

the jackets could have the best pro scouting team in the world for all we know, but it's not going to yield similar results unless there's opportunity and alignment with the staff.

Well put. It is best explained as an opportunity cost issue.

We can't acquire 24-27 year olds who look like they'd be great fits for the job because we have those roles filled by less developed 20-23 year olds.

I don't think trading Provorov to LA is possible, unfortunately. They're already retaining on him from the original trade. I'm not looking up the CBA to find out, though.

If I remember correctly the retaining team can acquire the player again after six months.

I don't see Provorov being an LA target unfortunately, doesn't fit their lineup with stalwart defenders on the left side of the left wing lock.

I have my doubts that any of the teams holding late 1sts this summer would part with it for Provorov. His play sank to average/mediocre after a hot start and with the cap jumping up, these clubs will have other options. It's not the same as the deadline market.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

I don't think trading Provorov to LA is possible, unfortunately. They're already retaining on him from the original trade. I'm not looking up the CBA to find out, though.

I think it's within one calendar year, but I'm not certain.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Well put. It is best explained as an opportunity cost issue.

We can't acquire 24-27 year olds who look like they'd be great fits for the job because we have those roles filled by less developed 20-23 year olds.

that's the big part of the opportunity cost (pro scouting as a differentiator) but the other part is what you can then do with the young players.

in florida's case, they were able to move a still-developing former top-10 pick (tippett) for a premium rental (giroux) because they had identified, signed and smartly deployed verhaeghe.

 

[CBJx614]

If Utah wants to take the other side of that deal then sure.

That's gonna take some getting used to.

 

[VT]

If we're doing wish lists, I'd love for us to figure a way to trade for either Lehkonen or Nichushkin from Colorado.

I have no idea how realistic it might be, or if there's even a reason the Avs might consider such a thing. It would depend, I suppose at least partly, on how they fare in the postseason. I also don't really know if we have anything that would move the needle for them.

But either fits my ideal player profile - age, contract, ability, the kind of player who could help knit some of our pieces together.

I know we have too many forwards. But my ideal offseason includes shedding a guy or two as well.

Nichushkin has alway injured.

weirdly i think that having Too Many Young Forwards acquired through the draft carries a hefty opportunity cost that most teams haven't caught up to just yet.

the lack of roster flexibility limits opportunities for the NHL roster to improve via pro scouting. florida's a great example of this – they've traded away a ton of their pipeline, but have found a ton of value in other teams' discarded players.

it's a long list, too. off the top of my head:

• verhaeghe (UFA)
• forsling (waiver claim)
• montour (traded a 3rd round pick for him)
• marchment (AHL player swap)
• bennett (2nd + prospect)
• reinhart (late 1st + goalie prospect)
• duclair (cheap UFA)
• vatrano (traded a 3rd for him)
• gudas (UFA)
• OEL (UFA -- doing really well this year)

they've been able to identify players who were significantly undervalued on the market, acquire them, and put them in roles that are perfectly aligned to their skillset. it's a mix of:

1. available opportunity on the roster
2. pro scouting that can identify fits for those roles
3. alignment between hockey ops and coaching staff

the jackets could have the best pro scouting team in the world for all we know, but it's not going to yield similar results unless there's opportunity and alignment with the staff.

Only either Bennett or Marchment. Maybe still Gudas. Forsling is playing good in Florida but will he play good here? Reinhardt has 24% SH in this season I doubt he will have it in the next without the team like Florida/centers like Eichel or Barkov.

 

[majormajor]

that's the big part of the opportunity cost (pro scouting as a differentiator) but the other part is what you can then do with the young players.

in florida's case, they were able to move a still-developing former top-10 pick (tippett) for a premium rental (giroux) because they had identified, signed and smartly deployed verhaeghe.

Yes, though I'm going to keep the emphasis on the first part. It's about identifying the right players. Florida didn't get all that much from Giroux, and their best finds were very cheap or even free.

It's probably worth pointing out that we did actually do a move like this when we acquired 25 year old Alex Nylander, and he wouldn't have had an audition here if we didn't have injuries open up a spot for him.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Only either Bennett or Marchment. Maybe still Gudas. Forsling is playing good in Florida but will he play good here? Reinhardt has 24% SH in this season I doubt he will have it in the next without the team like Florida/centers like Eichel or Barkov.

my point isn't that CBJ should go after any of those players or that they'd be equally good elsewhere, it's that florida was able to identify talented players + put them in positions to make a big impact.

for example: the value that verhaeghe has provided to florida in the last few years far exceeds the value that the average first round pick yields to the team that drafts them. and unlike a draft pick, they started getting that value immediately after signing him.

florida's hockey ops team is insanely good at finding undervalued players and identifying ways to maximize their value. in order for that to work, the coaching staff has to buy into hockey ops' vision and actually use the players that way.

compare that to columbus, where there's been a roster logjam and jarmo always said that the coach had carte blanche to set the lineup, and… well, you're missing two of the three elements that made florida's plan work.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Yes, though I'm going to keep the emphasis on the first part. It's about identifying the right players. Florida didn't get all that much from Giroux, and their best finds were very cheap or even free.

absolutely – but identifying the right players doesn't mean anything if:

1. you don't have spots for them to play
2. you can't sign/acquire them (refer back to #1)
3. your coaching staff isn't aligned with hockey ops

It's probably worth pointing out that we did actually do a move like this when we acquired 25 year old Alex Nylander, and he wouldn't have had an audition here if we didn't have injuries open up a spot for him.

i'd argue that the jarmo era hockey ops team did an incredibly good job of identifying talented, undervalued players. as you said, they haven't been able to do enough of that. i'd add that the front office / coaching staff alignment has been way off as well.

 

[koteka]

i'd argue that the jarmo era hockey ops team did an incredibly good job of identifying talented, undervalued players. as you said, they haven't been able to do enough of that. i'd add that the front office / coaching staff alignment has been way off as well.

Where we have missed is on defense. Jarmo could find forwards off the scrap heap with cheap contracts that were decent enough (Justin Danforth or Eric Robinson or Sam Gagner, for example), but he was never able to find that surprisingly good free agent defenseman. Did he ever bring in the defensive equivalent of Danforth to see how he could do? Jake Christiansen was an unknown free agent defenseman. Was he the only one?

 

[majormajor]

i'd argue that the jarmo era hockey ops team did an incredibly good job of identifying talented, undervalued players.

I'm not sure who you are referring to, other than Alex Nylander. I think even at forward we haven't had that many cheap finds.

The first reclamation guys that came to mind were Skille and Duclair.

I suppose Danforth is a good example. Not a high end player but I count him as a great find to take care of our needs.

Where we have missed is on defense. Jarmo could find forwards off the scrap heap with cheap contracts that were decent enough (Justin Danforth or Eric Robinson or Sam Gagner, for example), but he was never able to find that surprisingly good free agent defenseman. Did he ever bring in the defensive equivalent of Danforth to see how he could do? Jake Christiansen was an unknown free agent defenseman. Was he the only one?

Christiansen and Blankenburg were free agents but still prospects, now prospect RFAs like the rest of the kids. I can't think of any scrap heap D that we signed in their mid to late twenties who took off here. I guess Nikita Nikitin was good for a year or two? Edit: nevermind that was a Howson find.

 

[VT]

my point isn't that CBJ should go after any of those players or that they'd be equally good elsewhere, it's that florida was able to identify talented players + put them in positions to make a big impact.

for example: the value that verhaeghe has provided to florida in the last few years far exceeds the value that the average first round pick yields to the team that drafts them. and unlike a draft pick, they started getting that value immediately after signing him.

florida's hockey ops team is insanely good at finding undervalued players and identifying ways to maximize their value. in order for that to work, the coaching staff has to buy into hockey ops' vision and actually use the players that way.

compare that to columbus, where there's been a roster logjam and jarmo always said that the coach had carte blanche to set the lineup, and… well, you're missing two of the three elements that made florida's plan work.

Florida had some good players before. Barkov, Ekblad, Jágr yes, he played in some seasons and very good), Trochek, Huberdeau, Dadonov.
And in general, having Barkov, the top 5 NHL center is then. Did we have one of those? After all, we didn't even have a center like Trochek. Of course except the end of one season I mean the second line center.
Also, would any players play without Barkov?

 

[Viqsi]

While we're talking about which very tall players are on our wishlists, I want Brenden Dillon. Allows them to keep Mateychuk in Cleveland until Provorov is moved, and he's huge. And actually a capable defender.

Ooh, are we wishlisting? I'ma put in a vote for Chandler Stephenson.

 

[CBJx614]

I think it's too early to start identifying what guys we should go after.

First we(and by we, I mean the new GM/Pres/FO) need to establish what kind of system we want to run. I imagine a new GM will have a new vision and they aren't just going to pick up where Jarmo left off. Just grabbing guys for the sake of grabbing guys is a disaster waiting to happen, some guys have only performed well because of the system they were in. If we go FA shopping for guys who don't fit our system( both now and into the future) we could be in cap hell real quick with all the potential young talent coming up over the next 3-5 years.

I think we're really at a truly pivotal time in the franchise, with the right moves this team could compete fairly early in a potential window with a little luck (come on hockey gods, just give us a top 2 pick)

 

[NotWendell]

I think we need to identify what our team identity IS before we go looking for players to fit it.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I'm not sure who you are referring to, other than Alex Nylander. I think even at forward we haven't had that many cheap finds.

The first reclamation guys that came to mind were Skille and Duclair.

not necessarily "reclamation" guys but their pro scouts have generally done a good job with player identification. duclair and gagner are the best examples of reclamation guys. danforth and olivier were unheralded moves that have worked out, too.

my point is more that their pro scouting team has generally been pretty on-the-ball with their evals, which was evident in their player-for-player trades:

1. voracek for atkinson
2. anisimov+ for saad
3. panarin + motte for saad
4. jones for johansen
5. hartnell for umberger
6. vanek for motte
7. harrington for rychel
8. wisniewski for karlsson

in each of those deals, they got players back who were undervalued while giving up players who were overvalued. that means they got the internal and external evals right.

it takes a different shape than florida's, but there's no reason to think cbj's pro scouting team couldn't replicate some of florida's success in that realm if the roster construction allowed for it.

 

[majormajor]

not necessarily "reclamation" guys but their pro scouts have generally done a good job with player identification. duclair and gagner are the best examples of reclamation guys. danforth and olivier were unheralded moves that have worked out, too.

my point is more that their pro scouting team has generally been pretty on-the-ball with their evals, which was evident in their player-for-player trades:

1. voracek for atkinson
2. anisimov+ for saad
3. panarin + motte for saad
4. jones for johansen
5. hartnell for umberger
6. vanek for motte
7. harrington for rychel
8. wisniewski for karlsson

in each of those deals, they got players back who were undervalued while giving up players who were overvalued. that means they got the internal and external evals right.

it takes a different shape than florida's, but there's no reason to think cbj's pro scouting team couldn't replicate some of florida's success in that realm if the roster construction allowed for it.

I like those trades. I wonder who is around from our pro scouts back then.

They happened to put out video of the FO discussing the potential Voracek - Atkinson trade, and their big takeaway was "it makes us bigger". A valuable thing but kind of odd to bring up given everything else those players do and how different they are.

And I remember they mostly just talked about Panarin's shot when they acquired him. Back then people just thought of him as Kane's triggerman. The world didn't know how good Panarin was and I don't think Jarmo did either.

Neither of those discussions inspire confidence.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I like those trades. I wonder who is around from our pro scouts back then.

They happened to put out video of the FO discussing the potential Voracek - Atkinson trade, and their big takeaway was "it makes us bigger". A valuable thing but kind of odd to bring up given everything else those players do and how different they are.

And I remember they mostly just talked about Panarin's shot when they acquired him. Back then people just thought of him as Kane's triggerman. The world didn't know how good Panarin was and I don't think Jarmo did either.

Neither of those discussions inspire confidence.

iirc the quote from the behind the battle on voracek was "he changes the whole dynamic of our team" – which wasn't wrong! at the time they had a ton of shoot-first wingers and basically no playmaking forwards outside of domi.

i also distinctly remember them being over the moon to introduce panarin. and, in fairness to jarmo, the shot was panarin's calling card back then. but they very, very quickly built the whole team around his ability to play with the puck.

 

[squashmaple]

I like those trades. I wonder who is around from our pro scouts back then.

They happened to put out video of the FO discussing the potential Voracek - Atkinson trade, and their big takeaway was "it makes us bigger". A valuable thing but kind of odd to bring up given everything else those players do and how different they are.

And I remember they mostly just talked about Panarin's shot when they acquired him. Back then people just thought of him as Kane's triggerman. The world didn't know how good Panarin was and I don't think Jarmo did either.

Neither of those discussions inspire confidence.

Yes, I'm sure those clips from Behind the Battle were the only discussion they had about those players. Come on.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Yes, I'm sure those clips from Behind the Battle were the only discussion they had about those players. Come on.

FLYNN: "hey jarmo, i know we're at the draft party with cam atkinson, but i just saw someone in a voracek jersey, we should bring him back because he's big"

JARMO: "i'll make the call"

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[CBJWerenski8]