Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[Monstershockey]

han said vincent's perspective is so warped by being in survival mode for a decade that he doesn't know how to evaluate his players (bad coaching

Maybe we should hire him as the next head coach.

he straight up said he was limiting his best line's ice time because he was afraid that they'd turn into the harlem globetrotters – a team that, famously, wins 100% of its games - is the definition of fear-driven decision making. another word for which is 'cowardice'

You are aware that it is the team that plays the Globetrotters job to look bad and make them look good. If the Globetrotters played the way they do against a real team, they would lose every game, hence the analogy. The fact that anyone would say they win because they are good amazes me.

 

[majormajor]

it's not pure conjecture.

han said vincent's perspective is so warped by being in survival mode for a decade that he doesn't know how to evaluate his players (bad coaching).

as a result, he opts to overuse less effective players who play a more predictable game because that's all he's comfortable doing (cowardice).


he straight up said he was limiting his best line's ice time because he was afraid that they'd turn into the harlem globetrotters – a team that, famously, wins 100% of its games - is the definition of fear-driven decision making. another word for which is 'cowardice'

You say it's not pure conjecture and then repeat the conjecture.

I think you just misunderstand what the word "caution" means in Vincent's sentence. The more common usage doesn't imply cowardice.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

So if his defense needs work, why not throw him on the PK and go “here, this is what you need to do”

What does it matter at this point? Rick Nash was exclusively an offensive player until Hitchcock forced him to learn the PK.

 

[Monstershockey]

i guess if you did have coaching experience, you'd be able to question jack han's. but if you did, and had more success than him, you wouldn't be here.

I am not questioning his video coaching experience, nor am I calling him a coward. I'm just not putting much stock into what he says.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Maybe we should hire him as the next head coach.

so you're saying that the only people who should be allowed to complain about professional coaches are other, more successful professional coaches? got it.

…you might wanna go delete some stuff you've said about kevin stefanski, then.

You are aware that it is the team that plays the Globetrotters job to look bad and make them look good. If the Globetrotters played the way they do against a real team, they would lose every game, hence the analogy. The fact that anyone would say they win because they are good amazes me.

whoa, slow down, is this real? so much for integrity in the sport of basketball, i guess.

oh well, at least i can sleep tight knowing that my cincinnati reds won the 1919 world series fair and square! unless…

 

[DarkandStormy]

I like(d) the Troika Line but people are acting like they're a top 5 line in the league.

They have one of the worst xG%s in the league this season.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

You say it's not pure conjecture and then repeat the conjecture.

I think you just misunderstand what the word "caution" means in Vincent's sentence. The more common usage doesn't imply cowardice.

instances where a coach may exercise caution:

1. not rushing a guy back from injury
2. not pulling the goalie until your team has possession of the puck

clear and immediate risk of something happening that would adversely impact the on-ice results, and thus a clear incentive to take a more conservative approach in the short-term.

that's… not what pascal vincent was doing here, which was benching the only line that's winning their minutes in favor of less effective players out of fear that they might eventually make some mistakes.

the risk (which wasn't clear, immediate, or correctly projected) was that they might become a less effective line, so pascal… just started playing the less effective lines instead?

the conjecture is that prioritizing comfort/certainty over results (the literal measure of success in his profession) makes him a coward. calling it conjecture isn't going to make the underlying logic less sound.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

bottom line Jiricek is a bust and its not because of nhl coaching

He’s like 21 years old. Jesus Christ

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Monstershockey]

so you're saying that the only people who should be allowed to complain about professional coaches are other, more successful professional coaches? got it.

No, just people that have been in the position of professional sports head coach would carry more weight in their criticism. I wasn't happy about how Stefanski coached, but I am not going to resort to calling him names, or telling him how to coach, or say he should be fired. I disagree with his usage of analytics during a game, doesn't mean I am right.

whoa, slow down, is this real? so much for integrity in the sport of basketball, i guess.

oh well, at least i can sleep tight knowing that my cincinnati reds won the 1919 world series fair and square! unless…

Well, I guess since you had a problem with him not wanting the line to emulate a team that wins 100 percent of the time you may not have understood the point he was making. My bad.

I didn't have a problem with him benching Marchenko. I do give him credit though because he was going to bench him, but he did give him a chance to right the ship playing in front of his parents, maybe hoping they would give him a spark and he would play better. It didn't happen, so he benched him after they left. No problem with that. I do think at that time Marchenko needed a little kick to play better.

 

[squashmaple]

View attachment 849810

I like(d) the Troika Line but people are acting like they're a top 5 line in the league.

They have one of the worst xG%s in the league this season.

Totally ignoring the presence of the Russians on this chart (as I am not involving myself in this fight), but weird how most of those lines are made up of their teams' (and in many cases the league's) best players. I sense a flaw in the stats when I see things like this.

 

[majormajor]

that's… not what pascal vincent was doing here, which was benching the only line that's winning their minutes in favor of less effective players out of fear that they might eventually make some mistakes.

They were winning their minutes in terms of goals results. But every coach evaluates the underlying play and makes decisions based on that. There's nothing new there.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I don't see any of that.
They barely lost to a team that may or may not make the playoffs, beat a team that has fallen apart, lost to two very good teams that play much better hockey than the Jackets.
Bottom line is that the Jackets are a bad team. They were bad last year and bad this year. Calling out Vincent is about as senseless as calling out Larsen. Both were given situations where they had no chance of succeeding.

I guess it’s all a matter of how you define success. It’s a very fair argument that PV hasn’t been given a roster that was ready to make the playoffs, just as it’s fair to say you start the season trying your hardest to make them. But it wasn’t that deep into the season when it was clear the playoffs were not a realistic goal.

At that point in this season success should be all about development of the younger players for the future. Instead PV instead rode vets even harder because he viewed HIS success as measured by wins. That was at the expense of development.

Most coaches (and managers) have some element of a carrot/stick approach. PV strikes me as an all stick approach (not Val ally but with actions). That can work, I suppose….maybe just not my ideal and not my ideal for a young team needing to grow. I’m hoping the new GM feels the same.

 

[stevo61]

Well said.

Cole Sillinger is a lifetime of cheating reps, Jiricek has a lot of it in him too.

I think folks don't get how difficult it is to do the neural re-wiring once the wrong wiring is in place.



The adjective for that coaching is bad. It's bad coaching.

But it's closer to boldness than cowardice. I think a cowardly coach would say "hey this is working they might save my job". Vincent stuck to his guns on that one and killed a line that was actually good.



I reject your premise.

Eventually what you say is true but for athletes that have more fundamental things to work on, it's better to put more energy into training and reps vs slightly easier competition.

You dont think it would take some boldness to play the kids with a lead? I could easily say its cowardly to put Jenner/Kuraly out for half the 3rd when the Russians who are fairly responsible got us so many leads in the 1st place.

I still dont get his Voronkov useage. He treats him like an 18 rookie when hes not. I think he gets a bit overrated in here but still. I distinctly remember a game when Voronkov was having 10-12 minute nights and benched for any reason (all Russians really) meanwhile Sillinger causes 2 goals against in 1 shift and doesnt miss a shift.

Cool bud, you stuck to your guns all year, maybe lets try to let creative players be creative for a couple games. Losing and playing bad hockey is not fun for anyone

 

[Monstershockey]

I guess it’s all a matter of how you define success. It’s a very fair argument that PV hasn’t been given a roster that was ready to make the playoffs, just as it’s fair to say you start the season trying your hardest to make them. But it wasn’t that deep into the season when it was clear the playoffs were not a realistic goal.

At that point in this season success should be all about development of the younger players for the future. Instead PV instead rode vets even harder because he viewed HIS success as measured by wins. That was at the expense of development.

Most coaches (and managers) have some element of a carrot/stick approach. PV strikes me as an all stick approach (not Val ally but with actions). That can work, I suppose….maybe just not my ideal and not my ideal for a young team needing to grow. I’m hoping the new GM feels the same.

I really went into this year with no expectations. I veiwed Vincent as a guy that is just here until Columbus gets a different guy that they think will work. I don't know if he is riding vets for wins to help his cause, or to keep it so he isn't over exposing guys that he thinks can be good with some work. Just playing guys a ton to get better may or may not work, a lot also depends on the player.

Using Tarasov as an example, he was basically thrown to the wolves during the earlier Elvis fiasco. A lot of were looking at Tarasov and saying maybe this guy don't have it and we have to look elsewhere. As the season wore on, and he kept going out there, he started improving and playing like a guy that maybe does belong in the NHL.

Now I am not giving Vincent all the credit, but he did keep giving him time and Tarasov, to his credit, produced. You can say the goalie coach deserves credit also. Sticking with Tarasov though did show he isn't coaching scared, and also isn't putting pressure on guys that they can't make a mistake, and not coaching just to get himself wins.

Marchenko also. He has only missed 4 games, so I doubt the pressure to play without making mistakes is too great. Yeah, you don't want guys making a lot of mistakes, but he isn't benching people over one mistake. The coach has some input on helping a guy improve, but the player still has to put the work in too.

I don't know if what he is doing will work in the long run, or whether he even gets another chance next year, but I do think he is trying, and I am not going to fault him for that. He knows he doesn't have much of a shot, and he is trying to make the best out of having an inexperienced team. I am rooting for him to do well, but that doesn't mean I think he is a good or bad coach.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

I still dont get his Voronkov useage. He treats him like an 18 rookie when hes not. I think he gets a bit overrated in here but still. I distinctly remember a game when Voronkov was having 10-12 minute nights and benched for any reason (all Russians really) meanwhile Sillinger causes 2 goals against in 1 shift and doesnt miss a shift.

If I'm not mistaken, Portzline suggested on his podcast that Voronkov's limited ice time might be due to concerns over his conditioning.

 

[stevo61]

If I'm not mistaken, Portzline suggested on his podcast that Voronkov's limited ice time might be due to concerns over his conditioning.

Im sure that was part of it earlier, he could barely move. If hes not up to their standards by now maybe their program sucks?

I can promise you Torts wouldnt have an out of shape player on the ice or have a guy this long and not have him in great shape. Just want to throw this in there before someone says its 100% on Voronkov and has nothing to do with coaching which apparently most things dont

 

[Cowumbus]

I loathe these vague "good signs" and "bad signs" convos we have on HF, you'd hope NHL evaluators would have better information to use to evaluate a coach.

I know they do. I am simply saying that being an assistant coach for a long time can/could be a red flag.

Obviously he was at best, our third choice for head coach; with Larsen and Babcock ranked ahead.

You are now the Owner of a prominent Italian restaurant. You fired your Exec.-Chef, and two candidates apply. One has been a Sous-Chef for 7 years, the other a Sous-Chef for 4 and an Exec.-Chef for 3. Both candidates worked at high end restaurants. Who are you leaning towards after glancing at résumés?

Do the same exercise but imagine the first candidate was a Sous-Chef for 16 years, and the second for 6. Is there a point where you start to question why the first candidate has not been able to move up?

 

[VT]

he straight up said he was limiting his best line's ice time because he was afraid that they'd turn into the harlem globetrotters – a team that, famously, wins 100% of its games - is the definition of fear-driven decision making. another word for which is 'cowardice'

The Harlem Globetrotters played combination, exhibition basketball. The Russian line had bad period, but instead of simplifying their play, play more aggressive, they started to combine in NZ, weren't aggressive, which made them lose pucks. Only Chinakhov had 5 turnovers in the 2nd period. Note that Vincent never prevented them to combine if they played aggressive. But they were playing exhibition hockey in that time. That's why he mentioned the Harlem Globetrotters.

 

[koteka]

No, just people that have been in the position of professional sports head coach would carry more weight in their criticism.

There are a ton of people who know a lot about their sport, can be very capable media personalities or assistant coaches, and absolutely suck when it comes to being a head coach or a GM. Just like there are plenty of managers of retail places who are good at their jobs who would suck as a regional manager or fantastic CFOs who would be atrocious CEOs. Heck, there are coaches who are good head coaches in one job and absolutely lousy in another situation.

Let’s not pretend that just because someone is a head coach that he is somehow above critics who have never coached.

There is a divide on this board. Some people think the management of this team is competent and just not particularly effective. Others think that the leadership is grossly incompetent at the jobs they have risen to (the Peter Principle). The competent clan really seem to have a difficult time with speculation from the Peter Principle posse. But how can you not speculate about incompetence of management after what we have witnessed in sports and real life for so long. For example, someone like Josh McDaniel, Bill Belichick’s favorite offensive assistant, should not have been so truly horrible in two separate, very short head coaching tenures, but he was.

I am going to continue to speculate that bad choices or strategies have happened because people have too much on their plates or they couldn’t handle the pressure or they couldn’t handle the criticism or they couldn’t deal with misfortune and they made completely wrong choices that they might not have endorsed if they were at lower levels or different points in their careers. I have watched too many people who hated being micro managed become micro managers themselves to do otherwise.

 

[Monstershockey]

There are a ton of people who know a lot about their sport, can be very capable media personalities or assistant coaches, and absolutely suck when it comes to being a head coach or a GM. Just like there are plenty of managers of retail places who are good at their jobs who would suck as a regional manager or fantastic CFOs who would be atrocious CEOs. Heck, there are coaches who are good head coaches in one job and absolutely lousy in another situation.

Let’s not pretend that just because someone is a head coach that he is somehow above critics who have never coached.

There is a divide on this board. Some people think the management of this team is competent and just not particularly effective. Others think that the leadership is grossly incompetent at the jobs they have risen to (the Peter Principle). The competent clan really seem to have a difficult time with speculation from the Peter Principle posse. But how can you not speculate about incompetence of management after what we have witnessed in sports and real life for so long. For example, someone like Josh McDaniel, Bill Belichick’s favorite offensive assistant, should not have been so truly horrible in two separate, very short head coaching tenures, but he was.

I am going to continue to speculate that bad choices or strategies have happened because people have too much on their plates or they couldn’t handle the pressure or they couldn’t handle the criticism or they couldn’t deal with misfortune and they made completely wrong choices that they might not have endorsed if they were at lower levels or different points in their careers. I have watched too many people who hated being micro managed become micro managers themselves to do otherwise.

I get it. My main beef was was people sitting on their couch calling Vincent a coward. It is uncalled for and bushleague.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Any thought to the idea that the jackets are holding out Elvis so he doesn’t get injured, insuring they will be allowed to buy him out in the summer? I’ve seen some speculation of this online and I thought it was interesting.

 

[Xoggz22]

Any thought to the idea that the jackets are holding out Elvis so he doesn’t get injured, insuring they will be allowed to buy him out in the summer? I’ve seen some speculation of this online and I thought it was interesting.

I would think they want the new GM to have every tool at his disposal. I'm not convinced they'll buy him out, but certainly don't want something to interfere with that potential.

 

[majormajor]

Any thought to the idea that the jackets are holding out Elvis so he doesn’t get injured, insuring they will be allowed to buy him out in the summer? I’ve seen some speculation of this online and I thought it was interesting.

It makes sense.

I said a while ago that I didn't think he was playing bad enough for a buyout, but I could see it if the locker room / off ice stuff is a big problem. And it appears we might be in that situation.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Just a heads up for everyone, this thread will close at some point next week and the armchair GM: summer thread will start.

In saying that, please keep all GM related things in the GM thread, and if necessary we will start the coaching thread too. The summer thread is for the roster building with trade rumors, roster movement rumors, and those types of discussions.

Thanks for another year of discussions. One more game to go.