Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[GoJackets1]

I forget where it was, but a podcast a while back discussed how he's never, in his entire coaching career, coached a winning team (sub .500 or something like that). Their point wasn't that he's a bad coach and it was his fault, but that he's always come into a coaching position and had to try to preserve his job basically from the start, and that's likely impacted how he does things.

I don’t know if this is exactly what you mean, but he’s had many winning seasons in juniors and a couple in the AHL.

I don't disagree with you. My eyes tell me that Elvis is being outplayed by Tarasov by a longshot and the temperament displayed is a stark contrast between the two. I'm a competitor and have no issue with someone pointing out mistakes and getting on someone to pick it up, however, it just feels different with Elvis (again, could be perception as clearly I'm not in the room). Both goalies are playing behind the same team. Both are seeing mistakes in front of them. Both appear to handle it differently and dare I say the team seems to be responding better to Tarasov.

I have no axe to grind and certainly just want the best decisions made to get this team on track for the long term. I'm a novice and just a fan but have played sports my entire life (over 45 years of team sports) and just don't see Elvis as the answer. Just one man's opinion.

I don’t think Elvis is the answer either. Tarasov is playing great and has improved a lot over the year. He seems more coachable than Elvis. Hopefully he can just stay healthy.

That being said, all we can see are Elvis’ on ice emotions, and I want to be fair to him and acknowledge that he’s far from the only goalie to display that. Shesterkin got into a tussle with Crosby last night, and even Korpi would get pretty emotional at times. I personally like seeing emotion from goalies. But if it goes beyond that and has left a sour taste in teammates’ mouths, then it’s a problem.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

My impression was that he was never the most driven player. Power forward body but didn't make the most of it.

I'd rather a player that pushed too hard than a guy who needed pushed.

Perfect example with Saad.

One of the biggest talents of a GM is to be able to gauge that internal "motor" before signing a big $ UFA or extending someone long term. It's especially necessary for players who will have lifetime financial security for a huge lifestyle (and for their kids and grandkids given the money made today).

GMs who can't do that saddle their teams with terrible long term contracts. You want to sign a player who has both talent and high motor drive. Without the latter, the former often doesn't make up for it once the money is in the bank.

 

[Monk]

That isn't true. Had plenty of above .500 seasons in major juniors, 9 out of 11 seasons, 3 out of 5 in the AHL, although one was covid shortened.

Huh, interesting. I guessed at the sub .500 thing because I couldn't remember the specifics. I'll see if I can find it again.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I don't disagree with you. My eyes tell me that Elvis is being outplayed by Tarasov by a longshot and the temperament displayed is a stark contrast between the two. I'm a competitor and have no issue with someone pointing out mistakes and getting on someone to pick it up, however, it just feels different with Elvis (again, could be perception as clearly I'm not in the room). Both goalies are playing behind the same team. Both are seeing mistakes in front of them. Both appear to handle it differently and dare I say the team seems to be responding better to Tarasov.

I have no axe to grind and certainly just want the best decisions made to get this team on track for the long term. I'm a novice and just a fan but have played sports my entire life (over 45 years of team sports) and just don't see Elvis as the answer. Just one man's opinion.

Probably not. As it was pointed out. Some goalies just play better behind certain team structures and maybe Tarasov is a better fit for the way this team is currently constructed. Will it be as efficient once they get better defensively and hopefully control the puck more? I think I mentioned in response to that maybe Tarasov handles screens better than Elvis? I see a lot of Elvis's goals allowed being on shots where he is getting screened by someone, usually one of his own teammates.

I'd like to not put stock in them playing better for one goalie over another. Their jobs are to go out and win no matter who is playing but I do see a lot more blatant defensive flubs in front of Elvis so who knows. If there are players on this team who dog it when Elvis is playing but try harder for Tarasov I'd like to think they are not members of the CBJ that much longer either.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Elvis' personality causing problems and the need to bring in additional stability via veteran players are things I wouldn't have expected on a team with Boone Jenner as its captain.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Elvis' personality causing problems and the need to bring in additional stability via veteran players are things I wouldn't have expected on a team with Boone Jenner as its captain.

Don't even get me started on this topic again. The pitchforks come out the second it gets questioned.

 

[majormajor]

not for nothing, but some of the young guys are solid and can play D, we just haven't seen it because vincent's been too cowardly to give them a chance until injuries forced his hand.

case in point: cole sillinger's last three games:

• 19:26 TOI at pittsburgh, primarily against the malkin line, 1-1-2 and +2
• 23:47 TOI vs pittsburgh, matched up on crosby, 1 assist and +2
• 22:46 TOI vs colorado, matched up on mackinnon, 1 goal and +2

in his last three games he's averaging 21:00 minutes of ice time, matched up against some of the league's top players, and he's +6 over that span with 4 points.

We've seen with Cole before that he can play very impressive hockey for a week or two and then seems burned out for a month. With his skating it's very difficult for him to play at pace for that many minutes.

the team has repeatedly choked away leads this season because vincent is too afraid to do anything but lean on the only 'solid vets' on the team (jenner, kuraly). when the kids get their chance, they perform better in those moments.

We should check this narrative with the facts.

The Blue Jackets have indeed given up an insane number of third period goals. So one would expect whoever is playing most of the minutes in third periods to have much higher goals against rates. And if, as you say, the kids defend better than the veterans in those moments, then it should be doubly obvious in the overall numbers.

Here are their goals against rates:

Fantilli 4.3 GA/60
Jenner 2.95 GA/60
Sillinger 2.65 GA/60
Kuraly 2.53 GA/60
Voronkov 2.33 GA/60

It seems not that clear that there is a young vs old story here. I could buy that there is a Voronkov needs to play more story (I come to this conclusion frequently).

Cole's numbers are open to interpretation. And don't neglect the bi-directionality. It's quite possible that you'd see Cole's goals against numbers go in the wrong direction if he was playing heavy minutes in the third period on this team.

 

[majormajor]

Elvis' personality causing problems and the need to bring in additional stability via veteran players are things I wouldn't have expected on a team with Boone Jenner as its captain.

Yes, because leadership should be taken care of by one player.

The people who are harping on leadership tend to think you need really good leaders AND more than one of them. Half the team ideally.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[thebus88]

Don't even get me started on this topic again. The pitchforks come out the second it gets questioned.

Similar to you when anybody expresses anything negative towards Elvis and/or feel he’s a PART of a problem with the team??

To be clear, you think Jenner is a “problem”, along with the MULTIPLE teammates who apparently have an issue with Elvis, but, the starting goalie getting paid $5+ million a year who can’t stop a puck, and yells at his teammates like a literal toddler throwing a temper tantrum, is no problem and showing the “drive” and “fire” the team needs?

Here’s a question, when have we EVER gotten reports of a group of teammates having an issue with a single player? With the way he acts ON ICE, I can guarantee you that more WORSE things occur “in the room” between the players that we don’t see.

The players need to like the goalie they are playing in front of. And that goalie needs to be able to stop the puck. We seem to have neither with Elvis. It’s that simple.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Similar to you when anybody expresses anything negative towards Elvis and/or feel he’s a PART of a problem with the team??

To be clear, you think Jenner is a “problem”, along with the MULTIPLE teammates who apparently have an issue with Elvis, but, the starting goalie getting paid $5+ million a year who can’t stop a puck, and yells at his teammates like a literal toddler throwing a temper tantrum, is no problem and showing the “drive” and “fire” the team needs?

Here’s a question, when have we EVER gotten reports of a group of teammates having an issue with a single player? With the way he acts ON ICE, I can guarantee you that more WORSE things occur “in the room” between the players that we don’t see.

The players need to like the goalie they are playing in front of. And that goalie needs to be able to stop the puck. We seem to have neither with Elvis. It’s that simple.

I should have set a timer.

 

[koteka]

I could buy that there is a Voronkov needs to play more story (I come to this conclusion frequently).

I think we need to step back and say what is the goal of the season. Once we were out of the playoff race, which was very early, the only narrative I care about is how to make the team better in the future. And the conclusion I come to is play the kids more. All the kids, not just Voronkov. But definitely Voronkov.

I look at opportunities to learn. If you sit Kent Johnson the entire third period I wonder what the hell we are doing. If you play Jenner 23 minutes a night, you are taking up time others could be learning, and I wonder what the hell we are doing. If you are going to pencil in Fantilli as the anointed 1c for the next ten years, don’t you want him out there taking a faceoff against the other team’s 1c with two minutes to go in a competitive game? Maybe be not every night because you don’t want to crush his spirit, but sometimes. Voronkov gets the occasional mention when national figures are talking about impressive rookies and he is averaging 13 minutes per game? It is just stupid. And that is not just because he was not in great NHL shape at the beginning of the season - it’s because in March Voronkov was still having 10, 11, or 12 minute nights.

This team is stupid.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Similar to you when anybody expresses anything negative towards Elvis and/or feel he’s a PART of a problem with the team??

To be clear, you think Jenner is a “problem”, along with the MULTIPLE teammates who apparently have an issue with Elvis, but, the starting goalie getting paid $5+ million a year who can’t stop a puck, and yells at his teammates like a literal toddler throwing a temper tantrum, is no problem and showing the “drive” and “fire” the team needs?

Here’s a question, when have we EVER gotten reports of a group of teammates having an issue with a single player? With the way he acts ON ICE, I can guarantee you that more WORSE things occur “in the room” between the players that we don’t see.

The players need to like the goalie they are playing in front of. And that goalie needs to be able to stop the puck. We seem to have neither with Elvis. It’s that simple.

If the issue is that the rest of the room has a problem with a single player, you’d think that could be handled by leadership.

 

[majormajor]

I think we need to step back and say what is the goal of the season. Once we were out of the playoff race, which was very early, the only narrative I care about is how to make the team better in the future. And the conclusion I come to is play the kids more. All the kids, not just Voronkov. But definitely Voronkov.

I look at opportunities to learn. If you sit Kent Johnson the entire third period I wonder what the hell we are doing. If you play Jenner 23 minutes a night, you are taking up time others could be learning, and I wonder what the hell we are doing. If you are going to pencil in Fantilli as the anointed 1c for the next ten years, don’t you want him out there taking a faceoff against the other team’s 1c with two minutes to go in a competitive game? Maybe be not every night because you don’t want to crush his spirit, but sometimes. Voronkov gets the occasional mention when national figures are talking about impressive rookies and he is averaging 13 minutes per game? It is just stupid. And that is not just because he was not in great NHL shape at the beginning of the season - it’s because in March Voronkov was still having 10, 11, or 12 minute nights.

This team is stupid.

I agree 100% on Voronkov.

The rest merits some discussion. I don't think it's good for development to get eaten alive. Fantilli is completely unready for hard matchups. Sillinger can handle it but I don't think he can keep it up 20 minutes a night with his skating, not for more than a week or two. Sillinger is already averaging 16 a night this year which is a lot for a 20 year old with that skating.

I'd like to see the minutes for our centers change this way

Jenner 20 -> 17
Voronkov 13 -> 16
Sillinger 16 - 16
Fantilli 15 -> 16
Kuraly 13 -> 12

If not for the Voronkov aspect I would say this narrative that Vincent is shortchanging the kids by several minutes a night, is completely wrong. The average minutes per night for Fantilli and Sillinger aren't low.

 

[koteka]

The rest merits some discussion. I don't think it's good for development to get eaten alive. Fantilli is completely unready for hard matchups.

As I said, you don’t do it every night, but I do think sometimes you tell Fantilli “Study some film on Aho because you are going to be taking face offs against him in a few days and your line will match up with his line.” Let him see what the expectations are and where he needs to get to. Just like Anaheim laid out a plan for Carlsson, we should have had a detailed plan for Fantilli. And yes, I am making an assumption there was no well thought out for plan for Fantilli. I feel comfortable doing this because there was no plan for PLD (he played wing until his dad told Torts to try him more at center so he focused more), but no I am not privy to private conversations inside the building.

 

[Cowumbus]

Brindley will be one of those guys... in 3 years.

Brindley is better than some of the guys on our roster, right now; and 100 percent a line driver.

If it takes that long I will be disappointed.

 

[VT]

I agree 100% on Voronkov.

The rest merits some discussion. I don't think it's good for development to get eaten alive. Fantilli is completely unready for hard matchups. Sillinger can handle it but I don't think he can keep it up 20 minutes a night with his skating, not for more than a week or two. Sillinger is already averaging 16 a night this year which is a lot for a 20 year old with that skating.

I'd like to see the minutes for our centers change this way

Jenner 20 -> 17
Voronkov 13 -> 16
Sillinger 16 - 16
Fantilli 15 -> 16
Kuraly 13 -> 12

If not for the Voronkov aspect I would say this narrative that Vincent is shortchanging the kids by several minutes a night, is completely wrong. The average minutes per night for Fantilli and Sillinger aren't low.

Jenner has too much I think. And maybe it would be better to move him back on the wing.

 

[majormajor]

I feel comfortable doing this because there was no plan for PLD (he played wing until his dad told Torts to try him more at center so he focused more), but no I am not privy to private conversations inside the building.

As usual you jump to firm conclusions from scant evidence.

All development plans are tentative and subject to change based on how a player is playing.

 

[koteka]

As usual you jump to firm conclusions from scant evidence.

All development plans are tentative and subject to change based on how a player is playing.

And once again you default to competent and mindful planning when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Like the record this year. Or the record last year. Or the whole Babcock fiasco including discounting the experiences of the actual people involved and a press conference that made Boone and Johnny Hockey look bad. Or plenty of players having their dissatisfaction with the team management leaked to the media this season. Heck, we didn’t fire the GM earlier because the guy who could have done it was out with a bad back. But hey, Chicago covered up a sex scandal so that somehow makes our incompetence ok, by some logic I fail to grasp.

 

[majormajor]

And once again you default to competent and mindful planning when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I'm talking about really basic stuff, like having an internal plan for gradually increasing responsibility for a prospect. Give me the most incompetent team in the league with the most batshit Howard Hughes ownership and they'll still have a plan for prospects. There's no evidence that we don't have such a plan.

You're in tinfoil hat territory bud.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

If the issue is that the rest of the room has a problem with a single player, you’d think that could be handled by leadership.

You would think. I don't believe this situation has reached levels that everyone believes they have.(or wants to believe they have)

This isn't like Krystof Oliwa trying to fight Luke Richardson off the ice and then getting traded very quickly afterwards. If it was we would have heard about it in today's internet world.

I'm talking about really basic stuff, like having an internal plan for gradually increasing responsibility for a prospect. Give me the most incompetent team in the league with the most batshit Howard Hughes ownership and they'll still have a plan for prospects. There's no evidence that we don't have such a plan.

You're in tinfoil hat territory bud.

Having a plan and having a GOOD plan are definitely 2 different things. Even a 3rd thing is having a plan and actually following it which is where Jarmo seems to have failed in my point of view.

 

[koteka]

I'm talking about really basic stuff, like having an internal plan for gradually increasing responsibility for a prospect. Give me the most incompetent team in the league with the most batshit Howard Hughes ownership and they'll still have a plan for prospects. There's no evidence that we don't have such a plan.

You're in tinfoil hat territory bud.

There are different training strategies from winging it by seeing what a guy can handle and adjust as you go along to very detailed plans where you limit playing time purposefully (like developing a rookie pitcher in baseball) from the outset. Anaheim chose a more detailed plan approach. I think we are at the winging it end of the spectrum and then

- we fired yet another coach
- the president of hockey operations was out with back issues
- Jarmo recognized he was a dead man walking as the team quickly was in last place in the Eastern Conference again

so player usage decisions fell to Pascal Vincent. This is bad because Pascal Vincent was only concerned with the immediate present and not whether players develop because he is focused more on his own career especially since the guys who had given him the head coaching job looked like they were going to be fired.

Sure, go ahead and post the the Charlie from Its Always Sunny conspiracy theory meme give me a tin foil hat.

 

[majormajor]

so player usage decisions fell to Pascal Vincent. This is bad because Pascal Vincent was only concerned with the immediate present and not whether players develop because he is focused more on his own career especially since the guys who had given him the head coaching job looked like they were going to be fired.

This is once again making rather bold uncharitable assumptions. You can't help yourself, it just never ends.

Pascal has said repeatedly in interviews going back even before he was hired as HC that based on his lengthy experience with developing prospects (it's the main job in the AHL) he thinks it's critical not to burden prospects with too much responsibility too soon. I seem to remember him bringing it up as central to the way he thinks about development.

Maybe he's wrong, but he's on the record about why he has this approach. And you don't need a team with a lame duck GM or injured President to have an agreement with the coach to follow a certain path with prospects. It's not even an unusual path.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

This is once again making rather bold uncharitable assumptions. You can't help yourself, it just never ends.

Pascal has said repeatedly in interviews going back even before he was hired as HC that based on his lengthy experience with developing prospects (it's the main job in the AHL) he thinks it's critical not to burden prospects with too much responsibility too soon. I seem to remember him bringing it up as central to the way he thinks about development.

Maybe he's wrong, but he's on the record about why he has this approach. And you don't need a team with a lame duck GM or injured President to have an agreement with the coach to follow a certain path with prospects. It's not even an unusual path.

Just to play devil's advocate here. Should porspect development be handled differently in the NHL versus the AHL?

The NHL is where you are trying to get to. The AHL by its nature is a developmental league. If you are good enough to be in the NHL, then you should be good enough to do your job. if you need full development shouldn't you be in the AHL? I sort of feel like you need to be placed in real life scenarios to prepare for the NHL. If they are being shielded from those real world scenarions by older vets, how do they learn how to handle them?

it sort of seems to me that PV rides his vets because he's trying to win games and not to develop talent. That's fine because that's his job at this level. Once this season went off the rails our priority should have been to develop players and not win games.

 

[majormajor]

The NHL is where you are trying to get to. The AHL by its nature is a developmental league. If you are good enough to be in the NHL, then you should be good enough to do your job. if you need full development shouldn't you be in the AHL? I sort of feel like you need to be placed in real life scenarios to prepare for the NHL. If they are being shielded from those real world scenarions by older vets, how do they learn how to handle them?

Ideally it should be very incremental. You show you can handle sheltered minutes well, then let's add an extra shift or two. Then you add more d-zone starts, then more minutes against top lines.

Sillinger and Fantilli are already playing about 16 minutes a night, which is in line with their results so far. I think that's fine. They'll gradually get better at it and earn more (perhaps that is what Sillinger is doing now with his current impressive run). The one guy where I don't get it is Voronkov, he's playing 13 minutes despite great results at both ends. He's obviously ready for much harder duties.

You can think of Sillinger last year as a cautionary example - he was so overburdened that he lost confidence and it just made the situation worse and worse. Maybe some lessons learned from him but I think also a lot of lost development time there.

I've taught college off and on for many years and it just comes to mind now that there are a few similarities. You can't teach someone harder concepts if they have a weakness in their basics. You'll have to teach them the whole thing over and over again and it wastes their time. Nail the basics and then go to the next step.

** If a guy is only playing 10 minutes a night then that is a very different situation - that's a player not getting enough reps on the basics. But I'm talking about the development process here for Voronkov, Fantilli, and Sillinger, who are all getting a lot more than that.