Line Combos: Roster Discussion/Line Combos

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I’m sure you will have some way to explain this away (you’re usually positive), and you’re welcome to do so. However, this was the same type of excuse people were giving when some of us were criticizing Murray for being injury prone. Maybe even Werenski too…

Laine hasn’t played a full NHL season in what, 4 years? That’s a lot of money to pay someone to not play, even if when they do play they are impactful.

I also thought of the Murray discussions when I read the point that the injuries are unrelated.

 

[Monk]

I also thought of the Murray discussions when I read the point that the injuries are unrelated.

I get that Murray was absolutely, by definition, injury prone - but I feel like that has a certain negative connotation that Murray doesn't deserve. Guy was really unlucky. Hopefully Laine's luck is better moving forward.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I get that Murray was absolutely, by definition, injury prone - but I feel like that has a certain negative connotation that Murray doesn't deserve. Guy was really unlucky. Hopefully Laine's luck is better moving forward.

I don't disagree on the whole. But I do recall the "injuries not related to each other" point being brought up in relation to Murray, and that to be taken as a positive, that we weren't looking at a situation where a back or a knee or a hip was going to cause him problems and so we shouldn't worry as much about him. But as e learned, injured is injured and unavailable is unavailable.

So when I saw the same posited regarding Laine I winced a little.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I’m sure you will have some way to explain this away (you’re usually positive), and you’re welcome to do so. However, this was the same type of excuse people were giving when some of us were criticizing Murray for being injury prone. Maybe even Werenski too…

werenski's injuries have all been shoulder related. he played through one of them, iirc he's had two surgeries on one shoulder and one on the other, all for the same issue (dislocations) which isn't all that rare.

murray had knee and shoulder injuries early in his career, but the one that kept him out was a recurring back injury – something that was heavily reported on at the time.

The bad news: Murray’s back will need to be a daily priority — repeated exercise and stretches, proper moving and lifting techniques, etc. — for the rest of his life, not just for the rest of his playing career. At 26 years old, he has the back of a much older man.

back injuries are extremely troublesome for hockey players. boone jenner's another guy who has dealt with those and has missed time repeatedly.

Laine hasn’t played a full NHL season in what, 4 years? That’s a lot of money to pay someone to not play, even if when they do play they are impactful.

with guys like ryan murray or zach werenski or boone jenner, you're constantly worrying about a specific type of injury that will be major and long-term. with laine, it's been a string of unrelated minor injuries, which makes it more of an unfortunate annoyance than a major concern.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I don't disagree on the whole. But I do recall the "injuries not related to each other" point being brought up in relation to Murray, and that to be taken as a positive, that we weren't looking at a situation where a back or a knee or a hip was going to cause him problems and so we shouldn't worry as much about him.

it actually was a chronic back condition, though. there was other stuff mixed in, but that was the big one.

 

[Monk]

I don't disagree on the whole. But I do recall the "injuries not related to each other" point being brought up in relation to Murray, and that to be taken as a positive, that we weren't looking at a situation where a back or a knee or a hip was going to cause him problems and so we shouldn't worry as much about him. But as e learned, injured is injured and unavailable is unavailable.

So when I saw the same posited regarding Laine I winced a little.

I had the same thoughts. I guess I'm trying to do the positive thing again with Laine despite the Murray evidence. Or in other words, Laine being injured a fair bit the last few years does not automatically mean he will be injured a fair bit moving forward, as well. Dare to dream?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

it actually was a chronic back condition, though. there was other stuff mixed in, but that was the big one.

They key part being "there was other stuff mixed in." And I wasn't the one making the point, I was reading it. Others were saying Murray was OK because his injuries weren't all related.

Not wrong necessarily, but he was out a lot nonetheless.

And now we are hearing the same said about Laine.

 

[LJ7]

I would like to hear the meathead details. All of them.

Unfortunately I can't find the aforementioned trainer's page so I'll have difficulty explaining it. Chinakhov worked with at least two different trainers in Russia over the summer and I couldn't find the interesting/unconventional one, if I do I'll post it.

The trainer came on to my radar when I saw a clip of him squatting inhumanly deep, which made the rounds in online fitness circles in a "this is ridiculous but really impressive" way. When I saw Chinakhov was training with him I looked at the trainer's Instagram and saw he seems to be an unconventional yet practical (often times the balance is hard to strike) trainer, I can remember he had him doing resisted sprints and stuff. It's a shame I couldn't find the guy's page, the name didn't stick since his display name (not his handle) is in Russian.

He popped up on my feed again finally. This is the squat video I mentioned, his post of Chinakhov and another Russian player training with him doing resisted sprints on a soccer field last summer seem to be gone though but this is the guy.

Edit: actually I just missed this that has Chinakhov in it although it is not the exact post I remembered, must be taken down

 

[stevo61]

theres ATG and then there is that... seems unneccesary

 

[CBJx614]

My knees hurt just watching that squat...

 

[majormajor]

I can't go past parallel on a squat without back curling / buttwink, so I'm wondering how they're getting that low. Maybe they just don't care about straight backs?

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

My veins hurt watching that squat.

 

[stevo61]

I can't go past parallel on a squat without back curling / buttwink, so I'm wondering how they're getting that low. Maybe they just don't care about straight backs?

My issue is more the knee position and the lack of benefits there. Risk/reward is not there. Your issue could a number of things but not a big deal, could be a flexibility issue somewhere but parallel is fine. Im more of an ATG kind of guy but would never attempt that ugly looking squat.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

They key part being "there was other stuff mixed in." And I wasn't the one making the point, I was reading it. Others were saying Murray was OK because his injuries weren't all related.

laine hasn't had any truly long-term injuries like murray, though. murray ended up having multiple issues (knee at first, then back).

murray had shoulder surgery during his D+1 year, then knee surgery that cut his rookie year short, then a second knee surgery the following offseason, came back, played four games, then missed three months with another knee issue, then missed more time after coming back with another lower body injury.

that 'lower body injury' was either a continuation of the knee injury or the start of the back injury.

the next year he played 82 games (15-16), then the back injury flared up in 16-17, causing him to miss 20 games, then 38 in 17-18, 26 in 18-19, and 55 in 19-20.

in that time he also broke his hand twice and missed some time for that (21 games total) but otherwise it was all the knee early on and the back after that.

since they traded him it's been more back stuff and, weirdly, two more hand injuries.

nothing in laine's injury profile is nearly as concerning as either of those major recurring issues that murray dealt with.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

laine hasn't had any truly long-term injuries like murray, though. murray ended up having multiple issues (knee at first, then back).

murray had shoulder surgery during his D+1 year, then knee surgery that cut his rookie year short, then a second knee surgery the following offseason, came back, played four games, then missed three months with another knee issue, then missed more time after coming back with another lower body injury.

that 'lower body injury' was either a continuation of the knee injury or the start of the back injury.

the next year he played 82 games (15-16), then the back injury flared up in 16-17, causing him to miss 20 games, then 38 in 17-18, 26 in 18-19, and 55 in 19-20.

in that time he also broke his hand twice and missed some time for that (21 games total) but otherwise it was all the knee early on and the back after that.

since they traded him it's been more back stuff and, weirdly, two more hand injuries.

nothing in laine's injury profile is nearly as concerning as either of those major recurring issues that murray dealt with.

All well and good and I'm going to take you at your word because I have no reason not to but all I am saying is:

The thing someone said about Laine is the same thing thing people said about Murray and we know how that went. So it just made me wince is all.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

All well and good and I'm going to take you at your word because I have no reason not to but all I am saying is:

The thing someone said about Laine is the same thing thing people said about Murray and we know how that went. So it just made me wince is all.

totally get the sentiment there but my point is that there was never a point in murray's career here when there wasn't a specific, recurring injury to worry about (first knee, then back), and that's not the case at all with laine.

to phrase it a bit better: murray was always re-aggravating previous (severe) injuries.

laine, since coming here, has missed time with an oblique injury (last year), an undisclosed 'upper body injury' near the tail end of last season, a hyperextended elbow (opening night), a sprained ankle, COVID and now a triceps strain.

not saying that laine is going to start an iron man streak or anything, but that's a drastically different injury profile (unrelated minor stuff) than "multiple ankle surgeries, a shoulder surgery, a hand surgery and a debilitating recurring back condition" like murray.

 

[Cowumbus]

totally get the sentiment there but my point is that there was never a point in murray's career here when there wasn't a specific, recurring injury to worry about (first knee, then back), and that's not the case at all with laine.

to phrase it a bit better: murray was always re-aggravating previous (severe) injuries.

laine, since coming here, has missed time with an oblique injury (last year), an undisclosed 'upper body injury' near the tail end of last season, a hyperextended elbow (opening night), a sprained ankle, COVID and now a triceps strain.

not saying that laine is going to start an iron man streak or anything, but that's a drastically different injury profile (unrelated minor stuff) than "multiple ankle surgeries, a shoulder surgery, a hand surgery and a debilitating recurring back condition" like murray.

Go check the Ryan Murray thread from 2017:

Ryan Murray

Good post. I agree that not all first round picks are equal and comparable, but neither are all draft classes created equal. Both cuts of the data are worth a look, but both have their flaws. Agree with that assessment, Yakupov went number one overall that year and he's been a massive...

forums.hfboards.com

Come on... A shot bits his hand during a block. That's called bad luck. He played 100% of games last year, was at 90% thus year. No knee or shoulder injuries. Just bad luck on this.

I understand his shoulder surgery after a hit when he was 19 and his knee scope/difficulties a couple years back. Shoot, I believe I was slightly concerned about those too. But, he played all season last year and a huge portion of this season until the last week where he was only out like 2 games with a lower body injury.. Draws back in, and just so happens to take a hard shot right to his hand as he was trying to turn around to block the shot... That sounds like some bad luck to me.

Sorry, but I don't want to clinically relate him as "not strong" because his hand so happens to break when taking a 80-90 mph solid puck right to his hand. I'm willing to bet there has been other players that have broken their hand when a puck hits them right there.. Plus, this has no clinical significance to his past injuries.

Hopefully Laine is just unlucky like you say.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Go check the Ryan Murray thread from 2017:

Ryan Murray

Good post. I agree that not all first round picks are equal and comparable, but neither are all draft classes created equal. Both cuts of the data are worth a look, but both have their flaws. Agree with that assessment, Yakupov went number one overall that year and he's been a massive...

forums.hfboards.com

i got a big laugh out of this comment below:

Injury prone is more of a term used for a specific injury like multiple ACL tears or shoulder dislocations meaning they are prone to constantly reactivating a injury and causing problems. He seems to get injured in fluke ways right now not really anything prone about it.

he'd already had two knee surgeries (and missed a ton of time for those) and a separated shoulder that led to surgery in his D+1 year, lol.

the knee, at that point, definitely counted as an injury that was 'prone to constantly reactivating and causing problems' – this is also when the back issue crept up and became a much bigger concern.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Bjork would appear to be the choice

Columbus Blue Jackets recall D Marcus Bjork from AHL's Cleveland Monsters | Columbus Blue Jackets

The Columbus Blue Jackets have added defenseman Marcus Bjork to the roster on emergency recall from the Cleveland Monsters, the club's American Hockey League affiliate, General Manager and Alternate Governor Jarmo Kekalainen announced today.

www.nhl.com

 

[koteka]

Bjork would appear to be the choice

 

[Cowumbus]

i got a big laugh out of this comment below:

Yes, that fact that people were defending him at the time is laughable.

That situation is similar to Laine’s (and people are defending him now as well).

 

[majormajor]

Yes, that fact that people were defending him at the time is laughable.

That situation is similar to Laine’s (and people are defending him now as well).

You keep going back to language like this.

Like I think Laine is injury prone but that's not his doing, I wouldn't blame him personally for it. It just sucks.

 

[Cowumbus]

You keep going back to language like this.

Like I think Laine is injury prone but that's not his doing, I wouldn't blame him personally for it. It just sucks.

I don’t blame him.

What word shall I use?

Defended - speak or write in favor of (an action or person); attempt to justify

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Yes, that fact that people were defending him at the time is laughable.

That situation is similar to Laine’s (and people are defending him now as well).

my point is that they're not similar situations at all lol.

with murray it was people saying "well at least he doesn't have a severe nagging long-term injury like a knee or shoulder" about a guy who already had surgery on both of those body parts (twice on the knee!) and had a major back injury that hadn't been publicized yet.

laine's had an oblique injury, an elbow injury, a pulled tricep and an ankle. nothing long-term, nothing that required surgery, nothing that's popped up multiple times. there's a gigantic difference between missing 1-2 weeks for a pulled muscle and having multiple surgeries on your knee or having to manage a chronic back condition.

even if you call laine injury prone (which i don't necessarily have an issue with), you have to make a distinction somewhere for guys like murray who is a walking kintsugi vase.

 

[Cowumbus]

my point is that they're not similar situations at all lol.
even if you call laine injury prone (which i don't necessarily have an issue with), you have to make a distinction somewhere for guys like murray who is a walking kintsugi vase.

Right