Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

[GoAwayPanarin]

A few articles on our team's management and direction:

• Jeff Gorton Can't Afford to Hurt the Rangers Anymore
• Should the Rangers Consider a Mini-Rebuild?

That first article is steaming hot garbage.

 

[Machinehead]

Where did you hear Shaw? Brooks mentioned him in his column on Monday, but that was all I saw.

I'd take Shaw if his contract wasn't so long. He's a good bottom 6 guy. That contract is brutal though.

I'm probably just hearing the domino effect of what Brooks said, which used to mean something, but the guy is three quarters senile.

 

[Riche16]

I don't think it's that simple. The Rangers went to 2 ECF, won a President's trophy and lost in the SCF all without a top 10C or a top 20D.

The team you're a fan of has been one of the better teams in the league for the past 7 years without meeting any of the criteria you listed (for skaters) at any time.

It's too early to say on Filip or Lias, both could have that potential. Buch does too.

You could read that as being VERY good but not good enough to win it all.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Trouba+1? Winn does need an LD.

We'd go from no depth on the right side to having Shattenkirk, Trouba, Smith, DeAngelo, Bereglazov, Pionk.

But the left side takes a big hit with McD leaving.

 

[Ola]

Where did you hear Shaw? Brooks mentioned him in his column on Monday, but that was all I saw.

I'd take Shaw if his contract wasn't so long. He's a good bottom 6 guy. That contract is brutal though.

Yeah, I think it depends on what direction MTL goes. Shaw did a great job for Chicago, came into the league, played a ton of hockey and left it all on the ice for 4-5 years. Last season he was — obviously — not even remotely in the same shape as for Chicago, he got paid and was slacking. If that’s the player he will be from now on I wouldn’t be interested even at 1.6m per. But players like him can also recover a bit after a off year or two, he is only what 25-26 y/o.

If MTL would want to tear it apart — which should be a given looking at their roster — I could definitely see them retaining say 1.5m on Shaw for an OO prospect like say Bereglazov. If Shaw can step it up a bit and get back on track, he could of course be valuable as a proven winner, gritty RHS, bottom 6 player.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't think it's that simple. The Rangers went to 2 ECF, won a President's trophy and lost in the SCF all without a top 10C or a top 20D.

The team you're a fan of has been one of the better teams in the league for the past 7 years without meeting any of the criteria you listed (for skaters) at any time.

It's too early to say on Filip or Lias, both could have that potential. Buch does too.

I explained it in my last post, look at the end.

We built our team really well. Found a late round goalie star (Hank), we found two UDFA (Zucc and G) who turned into two very good NHL players, we had to be in the top 5 around the league of first round drafting compared to draft position (Staal, Kreider, Miller, Skjei), we won one of the biggest rip off trades of the decade (McDonagh), this team was built so well, yet the Metro team with three cups of late is the team who has built a team rather poorly around two Generational players. They probably would have like 6 or 7 cups if it was a well built team. You win in the NHL with stars skaters, our goalie was a star, but that's it. I'm not saying we weren't competitive, we were, but being competitive is not the same as winning the Cup. There are teams every few years built like us, it's not that unlikely to build a team really well without stars, yet only occasionally are teams built like the Wings were. That's the difference between building a great team and ours which was built really well. When you have to build a team as opposed to drafting these star players, the margins are so thin.

 

[DanielBrassard]

I don't think it's that simple. The Rangers went to 2 ECF, won a President's trophy and lost in the SCF all without a top 10C or a top 20D.

The team you're a fan of has been one of the better teams in the league for the past 7 years without meeting any of the criteria you listed (for skaters) at any time.

It's too early to say on Filip or Lias, both could have that potential. Buch does too.

McD is a top 20D, probably top 10, or atleast used to be that.

 

[JT Kreider]

McD is a top 20D, probably top 10, or atleast used to be that.

I miss 2012-2014 McDonagh. He was on his way to perennial Norris contention. But instead it's been mostly downhill. Those 2 significant shoulder injuries he sustained within half a year of one another hampered him greatly. Maybe the C on his chest did as well.

He's probably top 15 currently, but if you ask if I would rather have player x or McDonagh, then puts him behind guys like Werenski, Lindholm, Provorov, Sergachev, etc.

Karlsson, Burns, Pietrangelo (there's no doubt about it now), Hedman, Josi, Jones, Doughty, Subban, Keith and Letang. That's 10 no doubters right there. And I feel like I'm missing an obvious one.

Then there are others like Giordano, Suter (who was voted ahead of McDonagh on the main board best American defensemen poll), OEL, Ellis, Weber, Byfuglien, Vlasic, Slavin that could go either way.

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Assume I am alone but I would be interested in adding Shaw to this group. Contract isn't great so would need to be based around Smith going the other direction, which may not work for MTL.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Assume I am alone but I would be interested in adding Shaw to this group. Contract isn't great so would need to be based around Smith going the other direction, which may not work for MTL.

Nope. I'd be on board for Shaw... for the right price. Either Staal for Shaw or something of minimal value for Shaw with retention.

Point being, I don't think Shaw is worth too much but he could be a good fit for us.

 

[JT Kreider]

Nope. I'd be on board for Shaw... for the right price. Either Staal for Shaw or something of minimal value for Shaw with retention.

Point being, I don't think Shaw is worth too much but he could be a good fit for us.

Huge no to Shaw. The game is moving away from players like him. I'm not saying he's Zac Rinaldo, but speed and skill are "what's in" in today's NHL.

If we were able to unload Staal on MTL and we would have to take Shaw back in return, well that is one thing. Even though that is just swapping one problem out for another.

 

[Trxjw]

The question is whether he’s lost the team. I was convinced he did after the first two periods the other night. After reading some of the comments after the game, I’m leaning a little more towards the team being distracted by what happened earlier in the day.

That being said, the way they’ve started games clearly shows that he’s lost some effectiveness with the group. The next step is either regaining it or losing it entirely. He’s in a fragile spot right now.

Keeping a coach who has lost his team creates a toxic environment which can’t be fixed simply by replacing the guy when it’s too late. Keeping a guy around too long when you know he’s bad for your team can take years to recover from.

I don't think he has lost the team. I think the team has just gone stale. I realize there are a lot of new faces, but there aren't any new leaders. They're mostly the same group that has been going for it year after year for several seasons now. It hard enough to come back and repeat a successful season, but as that success slips further and further into the past, it gets even tougher to chase.

I think the fact that they came so close and didn't win has taken it's toll on a lot of guys. They've been having issues with starting games well for years now, and I have a hard time believing they've suddenly tuned out the coach. Particularly when the coach is known for being very hands off in the locker room. This isn't like Tortorella where his abrasiveness wore out his welcome. This is a coach who is quite mild mannered, and believes in letting his leadership group take control of the room.

Furthermore, I think the front office might be latching onto that same idea. Hence why we're hearing rumblings of a shakeup. It simply might just be time for a new core of leaders. That doesn't mean they have to wipe out the roster completely, but it might mean that some of the guys who have earned the letters on their chest are going to have to find new homes. This group just isn't getting it done, and while the coaching staff isn't absolved of their bad decisions, I just can't lay all of the blame at their feet either.

 

[Mikos87]

I'm not too concerned about this season, 13 games, 4 wins... That's your reality.

You live with it to analyze where the chokepoints are and you then build out off those points.

I don't consider any player untouchable, but you have to look at return versus the value presented.

Guys like Zucc, Kreider... Those guys will get more in value than they can and will deliver.

Nash... Grabs... Holden.. You get your futures from those rentals.

The other guys... Those have to be good hockey trades... Not paper deals... But players that fill a role... And fill them for a few years.

You really have to team build from each role thats missing and slot guys accordingly.

You have to get past this notion of slotting guys higher in the lineup based on potential... That's a mistake Gorts and co have made repeatedly.

This year the bubble burst.

 

[Mikos87]

Also some of you have really got to stop oveerrating some of the players on the roster.

If you knew what some folks, even those within the org, thought about the guys you overrate... You'd know you get nothing close to what you think.

Teams view these players as multimillion dollar assets... Some teams have a very asset management driven approach.

Very rarely do have a situation where another GM would severely overpay for a player that would show up for 40% of the season with full effort.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

McD is a top 20D, probably top 10, or atleast used to be that.

Right, and I agree. The problem on defense is not the top end talent, I think McDonagh can be the best defenseman on a Cup winning team, but you can't say the same thing about the forwards. On defense, we have other issues. What was once an excellent defensive team is not anymore, our defense now scores more points because we can't win low scoring games anymore, and the GM knew that so he assembled a much better defense from an offensive perspective.

 

[hi]

Season saved. Buy buy buy. Scratch what I said about the 2021-22 season.

Chytil + Vesey + Graves + 2018 2nd + 2019 2nd + 2019 3rd for Duchene 50%

Nash + Hayes + Andersson + DeAngelo + Pionk + 2018 1st + 2019 1st + Holden for Pacioretty 50% + Galchenyuk

 

[Avery16]

Let me just say this: Brendan Smith is a bum. He got an absolute gift of a contract, and he shit the bed.

 

[Kovalev27]

He came in badly out of shape and hasn’t recovered.

 

[Lion Hound]

Assume I am alone but I would be interested in adding Shaw to this group. Contract isn't great so would need to be based around Smith going the other direction, which may not work for MTL.

Same here. Rangers don't have a guy like him. Contract is a bit high but not completely out of control. There will always be a place in the game for gritty players that are tough to play against...Especially come playoff time.

 

[Inferno]

Smith has been really bad...i hate to say I agree with AV...like ever..but I do agree with benching him..hes stunk.

 

[Mac n Gs]

He came in badly out of shape and hasn’t recovered.

Your own wedding/honeymoon and four or five friend’s weddings all in one offseason will do that. There’s no excuse for him though, especially after signing that contract. He better hurry up and get his ass in shape

 

[JT Kreider]

Red Wings fans did warn us. He sucks during the regular season but kicks it into gear big time for the playoffs.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Smith has been really bad...i hate to say I agree with AV...like ever..but I do agree with benching him..hes stunk.

I'm a Smith fan but I admit he has looked bad since the beginning of preseason. I was surprised that he thinks he has been playing well even after the benchings. He did play very well in the playoffs. I have previously said he was a 3rd pairing guy who can play 2nd pairing when he is playing well but in our first 14 games he has been a 3rd pairing guy at best. He needs to step it up for us.

 

[NickyFotiu]

By the way dont look now but we are still only 3 points out of the playoff race now.

 

[Mac n Gs]

By the way dont look now but we are still only 3 points out of the playoff race now.

This month is crucial to paint a better picture for the playoffs. If we’re well out of it by Thanskgiving, it’ll be tougher to catch up ground and make the playoffs