Proposal: Roster Building Thread Part X: I Get No Points Out of You

[Alluckks]

We brought a guy here in his prime to try and win a cup - news flash, we did really freaking well in those years. Now y'all are getting up in arms over the final year or two of an 8 year contract. Another news flash, in 8 year contracts you typically do not get good value at the end of them. But please continue nonsensically complaining.

 

[Roo Returns]

I don't mean to hate on Nash so much, he plays a complete game, works hard, and seems like a swell fellow but he's supposed to be the "main guy" on a team and has never really produced like one with only one year (2008-09) as the exception. Even in 14-15 that was a committee team. He doesn't elevate his line mates and is not super clutch come playoff time (ok, if Voynov doesn't barely tap that puck in the SFC OT maybe the narrative is slightly different).

I brought up the other day he produces like a 3rd liner on a Cup contender, and a second liner on a decent team (Nick Bonino, Dustin Brown, a super young Anthony Mantha, a young Max Domi) are around his production level, not the Getzlaf's, Kopitar,s etc.

There were 183 players who produced more than Rick Nash in 2016-17. His days of being a superstar are over. His value isn't that high and the return he brings back isn't going to be first. Ironically, it's Buchnevich who was the 3rd rounder that came with him in the CLB trade that might turn out to be the best player in the entire deal.

 

[Alluckks]

people want to treat salaries in the nhl like this is major league baseball, where you can overpay players to do a decent job on the field. you CANT do that when your paying a player almost 8 million to produce like players who make 4

here is a list of players that make somewhere in the range of what nash makes and barring bobby ryan id happily take any of them over rick nash right now, no matter how well he kills penalties or plays defense....

[snip]

Would be a lot more useful if you also showed till what year and what age those players are being paid till. You want that Shea Weber contract that expries in 2025-26 when he 40? How about that Parise one that expires in 2024-25 when he is 40? lol okay buddy

That Bobby Ryan contract is god awful and so is Dion Phaneuf. They each have a number of years left and perform worse than Nash right now.

You're gonna compare Tarasenko? What a straw man comparison.

Then you put people like Voracek, Giroux, and O'Reilly up there like that is any comparison at all. Those players haven't even completed half of their long term contracts yet. Unless you are from the future adn will tell me how they perform years from now when they are in the final 2 years of their deals.

 

[Alluckks]

I have no problem criticizing Nash's play, but when you just want to throw dollar figures without context at all it completely undermines your credibility and argument.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Bringing up Nash's contract is really such a useless point. It was signed to ensure that he was the face of a brand new franchise. Also, those giant contracts are there to get value in the first half of it, and you eat what you have to on the back end. Nash would be great if he scored more goals, but bringing up his contract in these types of conversations (especially when it is an expiring contract so it has virtually no impact on his trade value) is either just poor, straw man analysis, or envy.

Agreed, and just to add, Nash isn't paid to be "the face of the franchise." He was acquired in the summer of 2012 to be the final piece for a contender. That window is closed and the organization is working to open another one. He signed that contract ages ago and you're always going to have situations like this where a perceived "final piece" is still hanging around once the party has ended.

This all said, I think Nash has been one of the better Ranger players despite his high cap hit, which will be gone in one form or another in 2018.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Would be a lot more useful if you also showed till what year and what age those players are being paid till. You want that Shea Weber contract that expries in 2025-26 when he 40? How about that Parise one that expires in 2024-25 when he is 40? lol okay buddy

That Bobby Ryan contract is god awful and so is Dion Phaneuf. They each have a number of years left and perform worse than Nash right now.

You're gonna compare Tarasenko? What a straw man comparison.

Then you put people like Voracek, Giroux, and O'Reilly up there like that is any comparison at all. Those players haven't even completed half of their long term contracts yet. Unless you are from the future adn will tell me how they perform years from now when they are in the final 2 years of their deals.

all i did was go to cap friendly and enter active players with cap hits between 7 and 8.5 million. I didnt pick players out of a hat, those are just facts did you not read anything that i wrote that went along with that post or just look at the chart and bash it....i wrote that i want nothing to do with with bobby ryan but you can glaze over that to protect nash like most do. Would i want weber? no

and by the way phaneuf isnt even on that list so way to pay attention......

oo and btw are you really going to say you wouldnt take any other player on that list? they are all mostly of similar age. If you are paying that type of money you should be getting production similar to what you see on that list!

 

[haveandare]

all i did was go to cap friendly and enter active players with cap hits between 7 and 8.5 million. I didnt pick players out of a hat, those are just facts did you not read anything that i wrote that went along with that post or just look at the chart and bash it....i wrote that i want nothing to do with with bobby ryan but you can glaze over that to protect nash like most do. Would i want weber? no

and by the way phaneuf isnt even on that list so way to pay attention......

oo and btw are you really going to say you wouldnt take any other player on that list? they are all mostly of similar age. If you are paying that type of money you should be getting production similar to what you see on that list!

Do you not see their point? It's not just about how much someone is making, it's about where they are in their deals. Players tend to not produce up to the last few years of their big deals. That's part of the structure of this league. Guys get big money with huge term either as UFAs or to avoid going to UFA. The players ask for as much a they can get, and some team almost always gives them more years than is ideal. Therefore, in the waning years, those guys are being paid for what they did rather than what they're doing. It's not valid to compare someone like Nash in the last year of his huge deal to someone who is in the second or third year based on the fact that they make the same amount of money. The guys at the end of their deals are almost always worse value than the guys at the beginning and the middle. It's not unique to Nash.

 

[RangerBoy]

Various coaches, players, execs and media said they could see it in places like Arizona (winless after some good summer moves), Boston (injuries and a slow start, despite talented young players), Minnesota (injuries and expectation), Montreal (losses and intense local pressure), New York Rangers (roster in transition), Vancouver (attendance), Washington (organizational pressure) and Winnipeg (rough start before three straight wins).

Watching the Rangers’ last two games, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Alain Vigneault look so stressed. Until their young prospects — Lias Andersson and Filip Chytil — are ready, they’ll be thin at centre. And in the Metropolitan division, it’s very hard to win like that as Pittsburgh proved on Tuesday night.

 

[LeetchisGod]

The best thing that this organization could do is to position itself to be contenders when Shestyorkin, Chytil and Andersson are ready to be key cogs on the team. A top five pick in this year's draft would help that cause tremendously. Also the stars on Wash and Pitt would be starting their decline at that point.

 

[Rangers in 7]

Do you not see their point? It's not just about how much someone is making, it's about where they are in their deals. Players tend to not produce up to the last few years of their big deals. That's part of the structure of this league. Guys get big money with huge term either as UFAs or to avoid going to UFA. The players ask for as much a they can get, and some team almost always gives them more years than is ideal. Therefore, in the waning years, those guys are being paid for what they did rather than what they're doing. It's not valid to compare someone like Nash in the last year of his huge deal to someone who is in the second or third year based on the fact that they make the same amount of money. The guys at the end of their deals are almost always worse value than the guys at the beginning and the middle. It's not unique to Nash.

oo i get it, im just talking about production in terms of salary...you cant compete with the NHL's best when your highest paid forward scores 38 points....

the people that defend nash because he plays defense and kills penalties infuriates me...btw the guy is 32 and has had one really productive season for us, he should be scoring 25-30 goals a year with the quality we have had the past couple of years

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Clinging needlessly to a man defensive scheme is going to be the death knell of AV's tenure here. We give up so many high-danger chances against, we would have been completely boned for his entire time here if not for having a generational starting goalie and insanely good backups. With Hank having a slow start and another year older, along with a pedestrian backup, the deficiencies of our moronic defensive coverage are laid bare.

But when has Vigneault ever shown the ability to adjust? He refuses to change his systems to fit his roster, and purposely favors players, both forwards and defense, that can't execute his plan as well. He's been content to watch our players lose coverage in the defensive zone for years now, resulting in high-danger chances against. We lose when our goaltender doesn't go godmode. Teams trap and obstruct to stifle our rush game, and he has no answer for it. We're a ridiculously easy team to beat, especially with Hank playing poorly right now.

Our players don't even seem to care anymore. They're not prepared to play, as evidenced by all the early goals we've given up the past couple seasons. With few exceptions, every coach has an expiration date. AV is past his.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Clinging needlessly to a man defensive scheme is going to be the death knell of AV's tenure here. We give up so many high-danger chances against, we would have been completely boned for his entire time here if not for having a generational starting goalie and insanely good backups. With Hank having a slow start and another year older, along with a pedestrian backup, the deficiencies of our moronic defensive coverage are laid bare.

But when has Vigneault ever shown the ability to adjust? He refuses to change his systems to fit his roster, and purposely favors players, both forwards and defense, that can't execute his plan as well. He's been content to watch our players lose coverage in the defensive zone for years now, resulting in high-danger chances against. We lose when our goaltender doesn't go godmode. Teams trap and obstruct to stifle our rush game, and he has no answer for it. We're a ridiculously easy team to beat, especially with Hank playing poorly right now.

Our players don't even seem to care anymore. They're not prepared to play, as evidenced by all the early goals we've given up the past couple seasons. With few exceptions, every coach has an expiration date. AV is past his.

I approve this post.

 

[Mac n Gs]

oo i get it, im just talking about production in terms of salary...you cant compete with the NHL's best when your highest paid forward scores 38 points....

the people that defend nash because he plays defense and kills penalties infuriates me...btw the guy is 32 and has had one really productive season for us, he should be scoring 25-30 goals a year with the quality we have had the past couple of years

You do realize Nash had 150 points in his first 188 games here, right? Saying he had one productive season is just silly

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I approve this post.

The funny part is, even with Hank playing poorly, we're still middle of the pack in SV% against high-danger shots. We just give up so many of them, we still get shelled. We're 29/31 in the league right now. We were 28/30 last season, and dead last the season before that. AV doesn't care to address the single biggest flaw with his coaching. He's that arrogant.

Edit: And for posterity, his first season (2013-14), the team was 22/30 in HDSCA. 2014-15 we were 29/30.

 

[Roo Returns]

Anderson/Chytil/Shestyorkin are a very good starting point, but need more. Reminds me a lot of the mid/late 80s, that team was in transition and then Leetch/Granato/Turcotte/Richter/Mallete/King/Broten/Mille/etc, came up followed by Weight/Amonte/Nemchinov/Kovalev/Zubov/Zameuner/Marchant.

This team is in transition and some of the roster even the young players may not be here in 1-2 years. Have to keep getting prospects, sign smart UFAs either who have one or more bargain bin ones, and build from that way.

On Nash, yes he was very productive in 2012-13 and again in 2014-15, it's the other three years plus this year so far that he's not had good seasons.

 

[Ola]

There are very few bad things you can say about Nash, but is he a leader? No.

In hockey, you cannot say that a player should do this or that thing. Play dirty. Other stuff. If Marchand does — not — mug Sedin and Boston lose, it would sound pretty stupid to claim that he should have skated up to him and mug him after the end of a loss. But facts are — there is also that side to the game of hockey. And there are other sides, Pittsburgh has two winners in Hagelin who never will stop skating and Hornqvist who acts like he has rabies when he goes to the net. Players that take space on the ice, makes sure to have an impact.

Kreider really hustled hard last night. Took a few runs, landed some heavy hits. But on one occasion, think it was in the third, he back checked hard and Malkin recklessly cut across he ice just inside our blue line. Kreider turned away.

Nash and Kreider are the same in this regard, they don’t take that space. Should Kreider have tried to send out Malkin on a stretcher? What do I know, could have been a horrible decision or a good one ultimately. It’s not about that, certain guys find ways other don’t.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Anderson/Chytil/Shestyorkin are a very good starting point, but need more. Reminds me a lot of the mid/late 80s, that team was in transition and then Leetch/Granato/Turcotte/Richter/Mallete/King/Broten/Mille/etc, came up followed by Weight/Amonte/Nemchinov/Kovalev/Zubov/Zameuner/Marchant.

This team is in transition and some of the roster even the young players may not be here in 1-2 years. Have to keep getting prospects, sign smart UFAs either who have one or more bargain bin ones, and build from that way.

On Nash, yes he was very productive in 2012-13 and again in 2014-15, it's the other three years plus this year so far that he's not had good seasons.

Hopefully we are able to add Dahlin/Svechnikov/Boqvist/Veleno to the mix, preferably Dahlin who would turn around the franchise by himself. If we get a top pick in this draft, we seem set. This draft has some of those impact players. We need one or two more of those impact players. We already have Buch, Skjei, Miller, Ziba to go along with those players, so we have some pieces, just need to add one or two more elite pieces, and then we are good to start contending again in another few years.

 

[Roo Returns]

Hopefully we are able to add Dahlin/Svechnikov/Boqvist/Veleno to the mix, preferably Dahlin who would turn around the franchise by himself. If we get a top pick in this draft, we seem set. This draft has some of those impact players. We need one or two more of those impact players. We already have Buch, Skjei, Miller, Ziba to go along with those players, so we have some pieces, just need to add one or two more elite pieces, and then we are good to start contending again in another few years.

Dahlin s going to be tough because it's a crap shoot even if the Rangers have a bad year but definitely one of Svechnikov/Boqvist/Veleno or even Zadina who could be that homegrown sniper the Rangers haven't had in decades. There will be some different players. I don't know if the 2/3 of Miller/Kreider/Hayes are here in 12-24 months.

 

[Avery16]

You do realize Nash had 150 points in his first 188 games here, right? Saying he had one productive season is just silly

If only there was a way for 2012-14 stats to count in 2017...

 

[mike14]

If only there was a way for 2012-14 stats to count in 2017...

If only there was some way for you to understand what he was responding to and what point he was making...

 

[LeetchisGod]

Dahlin s going to be tough because it's a crap shoot even if the Rangers have a bad year but definitely one of Svechnikov/Boqvist/Veleno or even Zadina who could be that homegrown sniper the Rangers haven't had in decades. There will be some different players. I don't know if the 2/3 of Miller/Kreider/Hayes are here in 12-24 months.

Bettman owes us after the debacle that was the Crosby sweepstakes. He needs to work some magic behind the scenes.

 

[SA16]

If you have an elite goalie it's a pretty good strategy to intentionally play a run and gun game and allow lots of high danger chances and get a lot of them. He will perform much better than the average goalie in that situation. If your goalie is so good it's really not a good idea to play a defensive style and support him to only face easy shots or what's as the point in having the elite goalie? You could get a lesser and cheaper one if you support him so well. Perhaps the biggest flaw is AV not adjusting to support lundqvist more as he got older and can't necessarily play that style any more.

 

[Savant]

Hopefully we are able to add Dahlin/Svechnikov/Boqvist/Veleno to the mix, preferably Dahlin who would turn around the franchise by himself. If we get a top pick in this draft, we seem set. This draft has some of those impact players. We need one or two more of those impact players. We already have Buch, Skjei, Miller, Ziba to go along with those players, so we have some pieces, just need to add one or two more elite pieces, and then we are good to start contending again in another few years.

We both know the Rangers are going to have the googley eyes for Tkachuk

 

[Avery16]

If only there was some way for you to understand what he was responding to and what point he was making...

I’m sorry- were you not defending Nash’s presence on the team?

 

[mike14]

I’m sorry- were you not defending Nash’s presence on the team?

Me? In this thread, no. But the post you quoted was clearly a reply to one saying nash only had one good season, using stats to point out that he'd more than that. It had nothing to do with 2017...