Relocation?

[monkey_00*]

Huh? Mississaugua is NEVER reported with Metro Toronto. The GTA perahaps, but never metro which is 5 specific cities and boroughs.

BTW The Mississaugua is 585K.

Huh?....I've seen Mississauga's population numbers included with that of Metro Toronto's many times........everytime people mention Toronto having around 5-million it's because they are also using Misissauga's population numbers as well as others like Brampton, Vaughn and Pickering to name but a few.......If you only include Toronto's 5 boroughs (York, North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough, Toronto) then you are looking at slightly over 2-million people in Metro Toronto.

 

[monkey_00*]

There's some things though worth noting with Hamilton and whether or not it is a viable NHL hockey market:

(1) Back in 1990 when Hamilton was trying to land an NHL expansion franchise 14,000 fans from the area made down payments for season's tickets in less than 48-hours with more fans wanting to make the purchase but the City of Hamilton capped it off at the 14,000-mark.

(2) there's 6.5-million people to draw from within a 1-hour radius of downtown Hamilton.........slightly under the 2-million mark if you exclude Toronto and Western New York area.

(3) Every time an existing team in the NHL has theratened to move to another City they almost always use Hamilton as the destination to move to........Hamilton native Peter Pocklington almost did it with Edmonton Oilers, Winnipeg Jets almost came here before moving down to Phoenix, St.Louis Blues and the one that came the closest was the Pittsburgh Penguins but then one day they drafted a young hockey player by the name of Mario Lemieux and the rest is history.

(4) Back for the 1990 NHL season the League had 2-spots opened for NHL expansion and were ready to hand a team to Hamilton along with Tampa Bay but at the last hour before the official announcement was to be made the Buffalo Sabres blocked Hamilton's entry into the NHL because we are within their boundaries (60-mile radius of their home arena).......

(5) In order for Hamilton to be granted a franchise we would first have to fork over $50-million territorial fee to both the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Buffalo Sabres.......at the time Harold Ballard was still the owner of the Toronto club and would have allowed for a new NHL expansion team to play out of Hamilton's Copps Coliseum.......he was also the owner of our CFL Tiger-Cats.......but the stumbling block was the KNOX Family who owned the Sabres.....they felt threatened by the prospects of having another NHL team just down the road from them 1-hour away and the family even made phone calls to the Hamilton delegation warning them to give up on trying to land an NHL team to the City because they would do everything in their power to stop it from happening.

(6) NHL was ready to award new franchises to both Tampa and Hamilton but at the last second had to change it to Ottawa instead of Hamilton.........at the time Ottawa didn't even have an NHL-calibre arena in place like Hamilton's 18,500 Copps Coliseum.......the NHL allowed the Ottawa Senators to play the first couple of seasons out of a junior hockey arena; home of the OHL 67s.

(7) Tim Horton Donuts were going to be the majority owners of the Hamilton team and Lakeport brewery and Allan Candy (both from Hamilton) were going to be the minority owners..........Don Cherry was ready to be our coach as well.

(8) Copps Coliseum is over 20-years old now and would need some upgrades.....they would have to add some more corporate boxes to the Arena and would have to raise the roof in order to make the additions.....the City of Hamilton has already stated that the improvements/upgrades would ONLY take 6-months TOPS to complete.

(8) Hamilton has gone on to host a number of world class hockey tournaments/ events over the years like the following:

* 1986 World Junior Championships...Russians lead by Bure-Federov-Mogilny won the gold.

* 1990 Memorial Cup which Eric Lindros and the Oshawa Generals won against the Kitchener Rangers in Triple Overtime.

* 1987 and 1991 Canada Cups...1987 was the best...Gretzky & Lemieux combined forces to defeat the Russians.
(each time Hamilton set attendance records for each of these events at the time of hosting them)

(9) back in 1994 when the NHL players were locked out the NHLPA held a 4-on-4 tournament at the Copps Coliseum featuring 4-teams made up of NHL superstars from Ontario, Quebec, Western Canada and a team USA......Ontario beat Quebec in the Finals.........(there's talk that the NHLPA may want to organize an event with their players to Challenge for the Stanley Cup. for this season.)

(10) There's also been talk that a lengthy player lockout in the NHL may force some of the weaker market teams like the Buffalo Sabres to declare bankruptcy OR move their franchise to a better more viable hockey market like Hamilton.....Thomas Golisano the current owner of the Buffalo Sabres payed a visit here to Hamilton TWICE in January.

(11) There's a Russian Steel Company that's looking to buy Hamilton Steel-giant STELCO....the company's name is SEVERSTAL STEEL and they also own a Hockey club in the Russian Super League by the same name (SEVERSTAL) and the company with talks to Hamilton and Stelco have made it be known that if they buy the Hamilton steel company they will want to do something for the City of Hamilton that would help to put us (Hamilton) on the map like helping us land an NHL franchise.

http://www.rushockey.com/sl.php?i=standings

http://www.hoovers.com/severstal/--...m_ite=severstal

 

[monkey_00*]

Here's a link to an article regarding SEVERSTAL's entry to bid for Hamilton's STELCO:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050214/to139_1.html

Below is the link to the Hamilton Copps Coliseum web site:

http://www.hecfi.on.ca/coppscoliseum/

 

[Hawker14]

At AHL prices.

Try selling them at the level the Canucks charge. Good luck.

Winnipeg had serious problems with corporate support in the past - that has not changed.

well they're sold out at an average of $45K each right now, so i don't think it's a stretch to say that they would pay 3 times as much for the NHL.

i guess we'll agree to disagree, and hopefully one day you're proven wrong !!

 

[Injektilo]

But what people like you don;'t seem to understand (well, there is a lot you don't understand) is that Winnipeg would be death as a road draw in the US. They would absolutle kill attendence as a visiting team.

.....

So people wouldn't go to games because the team their home team is playing is Winnipeg? No matter how good the Winnipeg team was? Even if they had a really exciting team that played wide open hockey?

Or do you mean people wouldn't go because they don't know anythign about the city of Winnipeg? Cause that's a pretty bizarre reason to not go to sports event, that you don't know anything about the city the opposing team is from.....





From what I understand, the conventional wisdom is that there would need to be a cap of about $30-33 million in order for Winnipeg to sustain a team, assuming then that they could run a payroll of about $15-20 million. So basically, the longer the lockout goes, the lower the cap will have to drop, and the better Winnipeg's chances of getting a team back.


I don't understand why they didn't build an extra 3000 seats onto the MTS Centre though, just in case..... you know? I guess when it was designed the idea of the Jets coming back would've been ludicris.

 

[Johnnybegood13]

.....


I don't understand why they didn't build an extra 3000 seats onto the MTS Centre though, just in case..... you know? I guess when it was designed the idea of the Jets coming back would've been ludicris.

Maybe they just didn't want the nightmare all over again so they made it impossible!

 

[monkey_00*]

.....

So people wouldn't go to games because the team their home team is playing is Winnipeg? No matter how good the Winnipeg team was? Even if they had a really exciting team that played wide open hockey?

Or do you mean people wouldn't go because they don't know anythign about the city of Winnipeg? Cause that's a pretty bizarre reason to not go to sports event, that you don't know anything about the city the opposing team is from.....





From what I understand, the conventional wisdom is that there would need to be a cap of about $30-33 million in order for Winnipeg to sustain a team, assuming then that they could run a payroll of about $15-20 million. So basically, the longer the lockout goes, the lower the cap will have to drop, and the better Winnipeg's chances of getting a team back.


I don't understand why they didn't build an extra 3000 seats onto the MTS Centre though, just in case..... you know? I guess when it was designed the idea of the Jets coming back would've been ludicris.

I find it hard to believe that the City of Winnipeg went to all thaT added expense to build themselves a brand new hockey Arena and they only made it seat 15,000?.....I know that Hamilton would have to upgrade the Copps Coliseum by adding some more corporate boxes but that would only take us 6-months tops.....Copps Coliseum seats 18,500........I wonder how long it would take to upgrade the new Arena in Winnipeg to NHL standards?

One other point to keep in mind...when the City of Ottawa was awarded with their expansion team the NHL allowed for them to play the first couple of seasons out of a junior hockey Arena; the home of the OHL 67s........so I don't think it would be a problem whatsoever for the NHL to allow for a team to play out of that new 15,000-seat Arena in Winnipeg for it's first 2-seasons of play if that City was ever awarded with an NHL franchise once again.

 

[StevenintheATL]

Las Vegas would really make sense. Over 5,000 people a month move to Vegas, and no telling how many of them are coming from hockey cities. Plus NHL ticket prices in general are in the same price range of most shows in Las Vegas. What would you rather go see, Wayne Freaking Newton or an NHL game? And I can even suggest an owner for the team, the Maloofs, who own the NBA Kings. The biggest hurdle would be where to build an arena. The Thomas and Mack Center really isn't ideally set up for hockey, and the Orleans Arena is too small for NHL hockey. The land value in Las Vegas is high, I mean prime land on the Strip is worth tens of millions of dollars an acre, so an arena anywhere near the Strip could have a price tag of over a billion dollars. If the Maloofs were to buy a team and move it to Vegas, I really could see them attempting to build an arena at The Palms. Reality could see a Las Vegas arena in the Henderson area, or perhaps even on the UNLV Campus (as a replacement for T&M Center).

Portland has been the rumored new home for several teams over the last 7-8 years. Had Mario not been the Pens biggest creditor and then taken over the team, Paul Allen was ready to swoop down and buy the team. He really wants an NHL team in Portland so he can have events @ The Rose Garden on nights when the Blazers are off or are out of town.

Houston can' support a team???? WTF????

The Aeros are in their 11th season, split between the IHL (R.I.P.) and the AHL. Plus add the Original WHA Aeros, and the various other minor league teams that have called Houston home (Skippers/Huskies of the USHL and Apollos of the CPHL/CHL). That's quite a bit of hockey history in Houston. But the biggest hitch might be with the Aeros being owned by the Minnesota Wild. The NHL could end up having to pay the Wild to move the Aeros to another city.

The new arena in KC may be just what they need to bring the NHL back. Kemper Arena is really showing its' age these days, and it not up to NHL standards that are expected in this day and age.

Salt Lake City seems to be an odd idea, especially considering they've really had trouble keeping minor league teams there over the years.

 

[Hawker14]

if any NHL team relocates, Winnipeg will be the first destination. see http://www.jetsowner.com for more info.

bettman has already said a 15,000 seat arena is fine for the NHL, and cal nicholls, part owner of the edmonton oilers, is on record stating it's better to have an arena with a 1,000 seats too few, then an arena with 2,000 seats to many, which many nhl teams have.

will the nhl return to winnipeg ? i don't have the us$ 50-60 million to ensure it happens, but i'm pretty confident it will. i've got my season ticket money ready just in case !!!

then again, i know the nhl will be begging winnipeg in a couple years to return so i'm just being proactive with my cash.

 

[Chartrand]

I was thinking along the lines of Birmingham, Alabama...Orlando, Florida...Jackson, Mississippi...or New Orleans, Louisiana.

...but that's only if we get to move Calgary and Edmonton to those places.


Also, I see the Jets in Winnipeg at some point...but they'll be the relocated New York Jets.

...which is probably worse than losing the original Jets.

 

[Jacob]

There are way too many reasons NOT to move a team to Winnipeg. Someone should make a website about that.

 

[Hawker14]

There are way too many reasons NOT to move a team to Winnipeg. Someone should make a website about that.

lol, nice try. btw, it's interesting you choose a canadian for your avatar.

 

[Jacob]

Why is that interesting?

 

[Hawker14]

if i have to explain you'd unfortunately still not understand.

 

[Jacob]

I think that's a nice way of saying "I dunno."

 

[Hawker14]

if that gives you comfort go with it.

 

[Jacob]

Oh I'm goin, baby.

 

[Wetcoaster]

if any NHL team relocates, Winnipeg will be the first destination. see http://www.jetsowner.com for more info.

Darren Ford lives in a dream world.

Winnipeg does not work as an NHL target market on so many levels.

 

[Wetcoaster]

well they're sold out at an average of $45K each right now, so i don't think it's a stretch to say that they would pay 3 times as much for the NHL.

i guess we'll agree to disagree, and hopefully one day you're proven wrong !!

If Edmonton and calgary who are miles ahead of Winnipeg are struggling, Winnipeg makes zero sense.

 

[monkey_00*]

If Edmonton and calgary who are miles ahead of Winnipeg are struggling, Winnipeg makes zero sense.

Wetcoaster..........

The only reason why Calgary and Edmonton are "struggling" is because the economics of the game doesn't work and we all know that NHL is in the process of doing something about it.......once it's fixed (and it will) places like Winnipeg and Quebec should be able to house NHL clubs of their own.......they should have never lost their teams in the first place......it's not like they weren't drawing flies like some places around the League a few years back........the New York Islanders for example.........and How many people live in New York?.....They have a HUGE corporate base there as well and yet they were on the verge of collapsing.......this is a classic exampe of a hockey club that has no business still being in today's NHL.........they should just leave teams in markets where the sport of hockey is #1 and not in LARGE U.S. Centers simply because Bettman and the NHL Board of Governors have this huge pipe dream of landing for themselves a mega-bucks tv contract that will NEVER come their way.

 

[monkey_00*]

lol, nice try. btw, it's interesting you choose a canadian for your avatar.

hawker14.........

Thanks for the link........hope you guys there in Winnipeg get the Jets back.......you should have never lost them in the first place but that's ok.....today Wayne Gretzky is losing MILLIONS with the Phoenix Coyotes............heh heh heh

 

[craig1]

Wetcoaster..........

The only reason why Calgary and Edmonton are "struggling" is because the economics of the game doesn't work and we all know that NHL is in the process of doing something about it.......once it's fixed (and it will) places like Winnipeg and Quebec should be able to house NHL clubs of their own

Your argument though seems to indicate that the NHL will fix it's economics...I agree with that.

But with the economics being fixed, why would teams need to relocate in the first place?

 

[Hawker14]

Your argument though seems to indicate that the NHL will fix it's economics...I agree with that.

But with the economics being fixed, why would teams need to relocate in the first place?

the presumption is that fans in certain markets will be turned off so much by the lockout that they will no longer support the nhl, making these cities not viable even with a salary cap.

if for example, carolina is drawing 3,000 fans per game post lockout, then winnipeg, hamilton, quebec city all become a whole lot more viable with 15,000 + fans per game.

 

[Hawker14]

ouch, just read this in the morning paper.

This year's Westminster Kennel Club dog show drew a higher rating on American television than the Stanley Cup final did on ESPN

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/WinnipegSun/Sports/2005/02/27/943958-sun.html

can it get any worse for the nhl ? it's scary that it can.

 

[Wetcoaster]

Wetcoaster..........

The only reason why Calgary and Edmonton are "struggling" is because the economics of the game doesn't work and we all know that NHL is in the process of doing something about it.......once it's fixed (and it will) places like Winnipeg and Quebec should be able to house NHL clubs of their own.......they should have never lost their teams in the first place......it's not like they weren't drawing flies like some places around the League a few years back........the New York Islanders for example.........and How many people live in New York?.....They have a HUGE corporate base there as well and yet they were on the verge of collapsing.......this is a classic exampe of a hockey club that has no business still being in today's NHL.........they should just leave teams in markets where the sport of hockey is #1 and not in LARGE U.S. Centers simply because Bettman and the NHL Board of Governors have this huge pipe dream of landing for themselves a mega-bucks tv contract that will NEVER come their way.

Why go to Winnipeg even if the game is "fixed"?

There are much better places to make profits where there is a large enough population, the team does not start with an automatic 20% disadvantage due to currency, a healthy economy, a corporate sector that can support an NHL team, no confiscatory taxes, etc.

Also putting a team back in Winnipeg will cost the present Canadian teams money from their broadcast agreements with CBC, TSN and SportsNet and it does nothing to help the NHL in its never-ending quest for a national US TV contract.

On so many levels Winnipeg does not make any sense to the NHL.