Relocation?

[GKJ]

Just a thought...but with the new arena opening, what if Carolina moved 90 mins down the road to Charlotte, a market 5 times the size of Raleigh

Carolina just built a new arena. They're going to have a hell of a time getting out of that lease if the NHL was to try and get out of that market.

 

[Hagar]

Ny is the number 1 US media market and LA is second. I don't know NY's population figures, but there are more people in California than all of Canada.

The NFL does ok without a team in LA.

Hagar

 

[Anthony*]

the nfl HATES not having a team in la...

 

[rwilson99]

Carolina just built a new arena. They're going to have a hell of a time getting out of that lease if the NHL was to try and get out of that market.

The carolina arena is also the home of NC state hoops... The lease could be bought out.

 

[Strong Island]

The corporate suits can go see the leafs at ACC much like the suits go to the NYR games at MSG while the blue collar folk go see the ''other Toronto '' team much like the Devils and Isles fanbase

Most Devils and Islanders fans are not "blue collar", they are either white collar or are just damn rich.

 

[katodelder]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Kansas City yet. IMG is building an arena to attract either an NBA or NHL team which will be ready for 2007-08 (build it and they will come). Obviously the NBA looks like the better choice right now, but I have no idea about the state of that league's franchises, while in the NHL Pittsburgh has no building and Anaheim no owner.

I'd love to see a more-down-to-earth NHL return to Winnipeg one day, but I hope they haven't shot themselves in the foot with their new arena. You can never have enough NHL teams in Canada, in places like Winnipeg and Quebec if the economics permit it, and another team in Southern Ontario if the Maple Leafs wouldn't object to a new neighbour.

Las Vegas would be a great choice. But it would require the NHL to show some forward thinking. And when was the last time they did that? Besides, A quickly-growing Las Vegas market might have bigger fish like MLB on their minds, gambling issues aside.

Other markets mentioned here like Portland, Houston, Seattle, and Milwaukee all make sense for various reasons, should the desire be there.

If the NHL evr rebounds, European expansion/relocation should be strongly considered. I think over the course of the next 20-25 years, the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL will all be looking to eventually expand from 30 to 36/40 teams.

 

[Jester]

NHL should definitely go to Vegas. fast growing population... a city where people are there to go and do stuff... gotta leave the casino at some point. no other pro-teams to compete with. why not?

god knows it would be the favorite road city in the NHL immediately.

 

[Jester]

If the NHL evr rebounds, European expansion/relocation should be strongly considered. I think over the course of the next 20-25 years, the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL will all be looking to eventually expand from 30 to 36/40 teams.

i'm not sure how realistic european expansion is from a travel point of view and the time that games would have to be played. however, if in the new cap world some equality occurs among all the professional leagues what i think would be absolutely awesome is if some sort of "champions cup" was played among the winners of all the different hockey leagues in the world.

how awesome would that be? sorta like soccer... would be great stuff.

 

[dolfanar]

i'm not sure how realistic european expansion is from a travel point of view and the time that games would have to be played. however, if in the new cap world some equality occurs among all the professional leagues what i think would be absolutely awesome is if some sort of "champions cup" was played among the winners of all the different hockey leagues in the world.

how awesome would that be? sorta like soccer... would be great stuff.

I think travel is a bit of a red herring in regards to european expansion. A trip from montreal to Helsinki isn't substantially worse than Montreal-LA. The bigger issues are the right way to market it. The NHL is a pretty different animal compared to what fans are used to over there. I'm not talking about on-ice either. Ticket pirces, corporate sponsorship, the draft, it's alot to sell. You would have to sell "The NHL", as opposed to selling the game of hockey itself.

IMO the top markets are
Portland (Seattle is a tad too close to Vancouver methinks)
Hamilton (Southern Ontario can easily support another team. Hamilton is a historically nice place to put a team)

Those are good places to put teams. They're like Minnesota, IMO, in that they are "natural fits".

After that it gets iffier.
KC and Las Vegas scare me a bit. KC because it isn't a natural hockey market, and the NHL is stretching it already, IMO, on these lab cases it's embarked on. Las Vegas... god, I just see disaster written all over that prospect. It will be the Anaheim Mighty Ducks all over again. Big splash, long painful death...

As for ex-NHL markets, Hartford, Winnipeg and Quebec can't be discounted, but IMO the time is not right to go back to that well yet. Toronto and Montreal however could both support second franchises, ofcourse the major obstacle is convincing existing owners of that.

Houston has the size and money, but I think the NHL would be taking a risk with two teams in Texas already. California and Florida are good examples of what happens when you start jamming franchise after franchise into an area. Maybe in 10 years I could see another team in Texas, but not yet.

 

[alecfromtherock]

Quebec City and Winnipeg previously had NHL teams and should be considered before the NHL thinks of moving to a ‘new’ market.

With a reasonable CBA Quebec City and Winnipeg would thrive in the NHL as they have a natural fan-base that no new US market can match.

City size and economics should not be the sole bases for getting a professional sports franchise(especially considering that the NHL is rated lower then NASCAR in national ratings)

As for Winnipeg stadium not meeting the requirements of a new NHL franchise I am sure renovations could be made or even a new stadium built.

Quebec City has the Ramparts(owner Patrick Roy) of the QMJHL operating out of the former Nordics stadium.

Quebec City(AKA Fortress Bloc) has enough pull within the federal government of Canada(the Bloc are currently propping up the minority Liberals) to the point of the federal government paying for a brand new NHL stadium with federal tax dollars.

Instead of wasting money on Sponsorship Scandals, Gun Registry and the HRDC fiasco make something material for Quebec City that will stand even when the Liberals are wiped out in a federal election(granted that might never happen)

Hamilton is another great fan-base city that should definitely be considered for relocation and would offer 20,000 fans a REASONABLE average ticket price in Ontario(unlike the Leafs $75 dollar average ticket cost for a team that has not won in nearly 40 years)

Any other Canadian cities or northen US cities that would be ideal for relocation?

 

[Anthony*]

milwaukee and london

 

[Slink]

Las Vegas - This will never happen. Las Vegas is not "about" sports teams. Hockey doesn't go well in the desert. Also there are concerns with gambling/mafia connections.

Seattle - They were given an NHL franchise in the 1970s but because the city and team could not agree on an arena they had the franchise taken away. I'm very surprised that Seattle still doesn't have an NHL team.

Milwaukee - If any city deserves to have an NHL team, it's Milwaukee. The problem is there isn't any corporate sponsors in the city.

Kansas City - Should have kept their last franchise but the fans were not given a fair chance to show that they loved NHL hockey just like the Vancouver Grizzlies weren't given a chance. Also, Kansas City has the highest NHL TV ratings for any city that doesn't have their own team.

Houston - 4th biggest American city but can Texas support another NHL franchise. I heard they were very close to getting a team in the last expansion.

Oklahoma City - If there is any city in the South that should have an NHL team its here. For some reason, they love hockey in Oklahoma. They have the largest average attendance for any hockey team in North America, outside of the NHL.

Winnipeg/Quebec City - The Canadian dollar is up, these are two cities that have supported NHL teams in the past and could as long as the Canadian dollar can compete.

Hamilton - I've been to Hamilton Bulldog games and the crowds here are just sad. There were more people from Rochester than from Hamilton in the crowd when I saw the Americans play. Replace Copps Coliseum and then maybe.

Toronto - A massive city, but would the locals support a new NHL team? They aren't going to be the Leafs. I think Toronto is a 1 hockey team town. If you moved the team somewhere into the GTA like Mississauga, which actually has a population bigger than Hamilton, it might make a difference but I doubt it.

I think the NHL could also do well in another city in Michigan or Ohio.

 

[kdb209]

Quebec City and Winnipeg previously had NHL teams and should be considered before the NHL thinks of moving to a ‘new’ market.

Quebec and Winnipeg (and Hartford) were never real NHL cities - they only got teams because of the WHA merger. They would never have been candidates for expansion and it unlikely that any team would have seen them as a reasonable relocation option - the fact that teams relocated out of them pretty much proves that point.

With a reasonable CBA Quebec City and Winnipeg would thrive in the NHL as they have a natural fan-base that no new US market can match.

City size and economics should not be the sole bases for getting a professional sports franchise(especially considering that the NHL is rated lower then NASCAR in national ratings)

Fans tend to forget - the NHL is a Business. Money is the only reason a city gets a professional sports franchise. And city size and economy are a big part of that. Yes with a new CBA (with a low cap) a team could probably survive in Quebec or Winnipeg, but with a reasonable CBA, few (if any) teams would be looking to relocate. It's not impossible that a team (for eample Anaheim) may look to Quebec or Winnipeg if that were their only option, but if there were offers on the table in Portland (paging Paul Allen, Paul Allen to the white courtesy phone please ...) or Vegas, where do you really think an owner would go. Follow the money...

 

[Jester]

Las Vegas - This will never happen. Las Vegas is not "about" sports teams. Hockey doesn't go well in the desert. Also there are concerns with gambling/mafia connections.

hockey doesn't go well in 90% of america... so that's a moot point.

some pro-league is going to be in las vegas in short order... probably baseball, they are open to the idea of going there, so don't be shocked. gambling/mafia getting directly involved with sports is illegal anywhere, and has happened elsewhere. i'm pro contraction until the league gets healthy financially, but if we moving people around Vegas makes a lot more sense than some of the places where teams are now.

 

[Jester]

I think travel is a bit of a red herring in regards to european expansion. A trip from montreal to Helsinki isn't substantially worse than Montreal-LA. The bigger issues are the right way to market it. The NHL is a pretty different animal compared to what fans are used to over there. I'm not talking about on-ice either. Ticket pirces, corporate sponsorship, the draft, it's alot to sell. You would have to sell "The NHL", as opposed to selling the game of hockey itself.

okay... lets not get an east coast bias going on. it is VERY much a big deal to be flying from say LA, Vancouver, the "other" coast to somewhere in western europe. there would have to be vast scheduling considerations for doing this, even more so than they have to do now. not to mention i can't imagine expanding to europe w/out Russia being involved...

i'm not sure it would be that hard to sell the NHL overseas if they decided to show up. i just don't think it is a good idea from the logistics perspective. right now we are talking about removing games from the NHL schedule to cut down on travel and wear from the regular season. does expanding travel into europe make sense there? how about the fact that NO one that works is going to be watching games played in europe during the week...

how would the playoffs work? you gonna have teams going back and forth across the pond for a 7 game series?

 

[arnie]

A more interesting question to me. Assume the following:

1. CBA resolved.
2. New Arena deal.

Many owners, including maybe Mario I would think who only took over the team as otherwise the bankruptcy court would have given him almost $0 on the $30 million remaining on his contract, are looking to get out once franchise values rise.

Mark Cuban, who was born in Pittsburgh and was one of the suitors for the Pens when they went into bankruptcy, though I am not sure how serious a suitor he was, and now is openly coveting a franchise. I wonder if he could end up owning the Pens in a couple of years.

Cuban has said repeatedly that he is not interested in buying the Pens.

 

[Gary Buttman]

Cuban has said repeatedly that he is not interested in buying the Pens.

I've heard that Tom Hicks is thinking about selling the Stars, which would make a bazillion times more sense if Cuban wanted to buy it (and control both major entities in the stadium he built, the AAC)

 

[arnie]

Winnipeg/Quebec City - The Canadian dollar is up, these are two cities that have supported NHL teams in the past and could as long as the Canadian dollar can compete.

This revisionist history keeps coming up. Winnipeg did not support their NHL team all that well. They failed to sell out, even in their small arena. They have no TV markey and little corporate revenue. Same for Quebec. Forget them, never happen.

 

[arnie]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Kansas City yet. IMG is building an arena to attract either an NBA or NHL team which will be ready for 2007-08 (build it and they will come). Obviously the NBA looks like the better choice right now, but I have no idea about the state of that league's franchises, while in the NHL Pittsburgh has no building and Anaheim no owner.

I'd love to see a more-down-to-earth NHL return to Winnipeg one day, but I hope they haven't shot themselves in the foot with their new arena. You can never have enough NHL teams in Canada, in places like Winnipeg and Quebec if the economics permit it, and another team in Southern Ontario if the Maple Leafs wouldn't object to a new neighbour.

Las Vegas would be a great choice. But it would require the NHL to show some forward thinking. And when was the last time they did that? Besides, A quickly-growing Las Vegas market might have bigger fish like MLB on their minds, gambling issues aside.

Other markets mentioned here like Portland, Houston, Seattle, and Milwaukee all make sense for various reasons, should the desire be there.

If the NHL evr rebounds, European expansion/relocation should be strongly considered. I think over the course of the next 20-25 years, the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL will all be looking to eventually expand from 30 to 36/40 teams.

If there is relocation, the best bet is Houston. It is big. More importantly, the owner of the Rockets wants a team to share the cost of his arena. He has already said that he doesn't even care if it makes money because it will cut his cost for the Rockeys significantly.

There will never, never be another team in Canada. Toronto/Hamilton copuld easily support one. but neither the Sabers or Leafs would allow that to happen. There is no other Canadian market large enough and wealthy enough to support an NHL.

Portland keeps coming up. Apparently no one is listening to Paul Allen's continued statements that he isn't interested. KC badly wants a team. They are more likely.

The craziest suggestion is Las Vegas. Huh? It's a small city in the desert where people care only about gambling.

When you get right down to it, there really aren't any good candidates apart from Houston. That's why I always laugh when I hear about teams like Pittsburgh threatening to move. Where are they going top go that's better? The Pens aren't moving anywhere, arena or no arena.

 

[Old Hickory]

I think travel is a bit of a red herring in regards to european expansion. A trip from montreal to Helsinki isn't substantially worse than Montreal-LA.

I looked it up online, the flight time from Mtl to LA is 6 hours. the flight from Mtl to Helsinki is about 11 hours

California and Florida are good examples of what happens when you start jamming franchise after franchise into an area.

The Kings had 80 million revenue last year, The Sharks had 74 million which was the same as Vancouver, more than Calgary,Ottawa, St louis, NJ, Chi, Minnesota, and the Islanders.
The Kings were 11th in attendance and the Sharks were 18th. CA is a fine hockey market. The Kings have been an NHL team since 1967 and are more popular than ever.
While we are on the topic. Tampa was 12th in attendance and the Panthers were 17th

I don't have Anaheim's income number, but as someone who lives very close to them and who isn't one of their fans, the team is a victim of bad management more than market logistics. And as often as I disagree with Ducks fans about this, their name doesn't help them.

 

[Old Hickory]

The craziest suggestion is Las Vegas. Huh? It's a small city in the desert where people care only about gambling.

Most of the residents in Vegas don't care about gambling. Most got tired of it. They support what little sports they have there very well. Bud Selig has said. Vegas is one of the prime targets for expansion next time the MLB expands

 

[WhoozYerrDaddy]

Vegas?

I love Vegas.

My first car was a baby blue 72 Vega with an 8 track player in it.
Blew up the aluminum block after 27000 miles. What a piece of
crap that thing was.

What's that??? You meant Las Vegas, NV???

[best Emily Littella voice] Never mind.

Carry on your original discussion, please.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Winnipeg, Portland or Seattle, and flame if you will, Las Vegas

I'd include Milwaukee or Madison. Kansas City? Indianapolis? Salt Lake?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Bud Selig has said. Vegas is one of the prime targets for expansion next time the MLB expands

Use another example and perhaps it becomes more credible. Bud would suggest Baghdad as a potential MLB relocation site if he thought the threat could be carried out properly, or if he felt people would believe him. He was, is and will forever be a used-car salesman...and a salesman of lemons at that.

 

[Brindfan]

The craziest suggestion is Las Vegas. Huh? It's a small city in the desert where people care only about gambling.

Las Vegas' population is now over 1.1 million. Only a small percentage of the population gambles. Most gamblers are tourists. It is a sports starved town. NASCAR, NFR, and UNLV sports are well supported. NHL pre-season games held in Vegas, have always sold out.