Rebuild conversation # 172

[Dotter]

Conveniently ignoring Mike Babcock and Toronto. Certainly wasn't a winning culture before he got there. Is it one now? They certainly do a lot more winning. More than us that's for sure.

Winning vs Losing culture isn't about the coach and it's not about the culture. It's about whether the team is good or not. Hard to have a winning culture when you're a crap team.

Did you quote the wrong person? I said it isn't the coach making the Oilers continue on their losing culture. It's the system and poor excuse of a rebuild not doing it right. I think Kenny Holland is doing it right. I also think Blashill could have led a prime CHI Blackhawks to a cup. I think Blashill has his warts, but I don't think he's garbage either. I think he's desperate and trying to hang on for deal life and may be causing him to make decision we would rather not see him make. For example, I get why he is riding Howard, because he is red hot and Mrazek is inconsistent. But I'd like to see more Petr starts. But not going to call it bad coaching. He's doing what he thinks he needs to do to win and what he thinks is best for the team's task at hand.

To me losing culture doesn't start last week when you're on a 3 game losing streak. It doesn't start when you miss the playoffs a few years in a row. It happens when you're on your 3 or 4th rebuild and still losing, despite having generational talent. It happens when you can't get out of the slump you've been in for 10+ years. TML look like they are finally starting to get out of that slump, but not declaring them a "winning culture" until they are a "winning culture". Right now they are nothing more than a young promising team trying to carve out an identity. It could go south fast.. like we've seem from previous "young promising teams trying to carve out an identity".

Wings could fall into a losing culture, but Ken Holland is doing the rebuild the best way to prevent that. But a string of bad luck could change that. If Wings got to continuously draft 1st overall picks and generational talent, they'd be back to their winning Red Wings like we all know and love.... without Babcock.

 

[Leadzedder]

10/12

 

[Pavels Dog]

I think he was saying something to the effect of, Detroit and Toronto could swap coaches, and the Leafs would still win significantly more games than the Wings.

Depends on what you see as significantly, they’re 8 wins ahead now. Probably a smaller number with a coach swap. But that’s beside the fact, it’s not about culture or coaching completely making up for a lack of skill (although Vegas...) but rather that you can’t just expect some top 5 picks to automatically make the team great as if skill is a number from 0 to 100 and the team closest to 100 always wins the most. Wings, despite being completely devoid of talent according to many, still are far from as bad as several other teams some of whom have been drafting near the top for a long time. There literally is no argument to be made that talent and talent alone will make teams great. Generational talent? Sure, they make a huge impact. But without the right depth, coaching and yes, culture, that generational talent won’t be winning cups or spending the better part of their careers making the playoffs. Toronto’s talented, but other than Matthews we’re not really talking about generational talents. On paper I don’t see the huge difference in their roster and Buffalo’s or Edmonton’s. Tons of people penciled in Vegas for a bottom finish and AZ for a playoff spot competitor. Talent is really damn hard to judge and in reality a ton of really talented players don’t live up to potential because of team situation. Creating a team situation where players live up to potential is what a winning culture is about.

 

[Claypool]

This thread is a ghost town lately lol

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If this keeps up we are going to have to change this to the playoff tracker.

 

[BinCookin]

If this keeps up we are going to have to change this to the playoff tracker.

LOL, epic!

 

[Leadzedder]

If this keeps up we are going to have to change this to the playoff tracker.

Looking ahead, if the wings ever get 4 points out of a playoff spot (7 points out now), I'll flip this tracker. Cause really, who cares if we draft 12th or 18th.

Yeah, that's a good call TZE. I didn't notice we're only 5 points back. 4 game win streak changes much.

Our playoff odds are at 11% according to this site.

Detroit Red Wings Playoff Chances - Sports Club Stats

Lowest they had the percentage was 2%.

 

[Cook24]

Kings fan here, sorry, didn’t see a trade rumor/discussion thread...

Was just wondering if you guys think Green and Tatar will be made available for the trade deadline, and wondering what you think it would take for the Kings to land him.

Players/Prospects possibly available from the Kings...

Forward-Brodzinski, Amadio, Mersch
Defense- Ladue, Gravel
Goalie-Jack Campbell, maybe Kuemper

Pretty much any draft pick in the upcoming draft...

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Tatar won't be traded. I'm not even sure that Green will be moved based on the current state of the blue line. Assuming Green does end up being traded, i would like a 1st round pick or Detroit sends their 4th round pick for a 2nd and a 3rd for Green. Retaining some of his cap hit is also an option if the Kings needed it to make it work.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Kings fan here, sorry, didn’t see a trade rumor/discussion thread...

Was just wondering if you guys think Green and Tatar will be made available for the trade deadline, and wondering what you think it would take for the Kings to land him.

Players/Prospects possibly available from the Kings...

Forward-Brodzinski, Amadio, Mersch
Defense- Ladue, Gravel
Goalie-Jack Campbell, maybe Kuemper

Pretty much any draft pick in the upcoming draft...

Tatar is a tough call. I don't think Holland will look to trade him. Personally I think it's pretty necessary to move one of Nyquist or Tatar. I'd be happy to move either for a 2018 second and a decent prospect/2019/2020 2nd. Tatar's value may start to climb if he keeps having chemistry with AA and Larkin.

Green absolutely should be traded and I'll be surprised if he isn't. He'll cost a 2018 1st and could even take a small add if there's a bidding war at the deadline. The 1st will be a reasonable price and that's what you should expect. Both could have retention if necessary.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

If this keeps up we are going to have to change this to the playoff tracker.

LOL Yep exactly

 

[TheMule93]

ottawa wins again

 

[Martinez]

I'm pro tank but I would LOVE to see us beat Tampa tonight.

 

[PelagicJoe]

Oilers fans have good reason to believe things will improve.

After nearly three straight decades of suck with one or two good seasons sprinkled in, they figure they mathematically have to get better.

 

[Leadzedder]

Well, we certainly came close to firing up a playoff tracker thread. 6 points out of a playoff spot after the night.

I figured I'd update this after the loss. We got a few days off and there will be some movement during that break. Current 4 point window...

24. DET - 41 - 41 (14) - 8th OA spot
25. FLA - 41 - 40 (15)
26. MTL - 42 - 40 (16)
27. EDM - 43 - 39 (17)
28. VAN - 42 - 38 (16)
29. OTT - 40 - 37 (13)

Each of those 4 teams that are bolded will play twice before Detroit plays. 3 of them could pass Detroit. We'll see.


On the playoff side of things.... (numbers are the wildcard chase)

2. PIT - 44 - 47 (20) - Playoff Spot
3. CAR - 41 - 46 (16)
4. PHI - 42 - 46 (19)
5. NYI - 43 - 46 (18)

Only Carolina plays during the break so the playoff line won't change much, if at all, during.

The direction of this season is still very much to be decided.

 

[chances14]

would be both hilarious and annoying if the oilers continue to suck and luck their way into the number one pick to land dahlin

 

[kliq]

would be both hilarious and annoying if the oilers continue to suck and luck their way into the number one pick to land dahlin

If that happens they seriously need to change the lottery system.

 

[Martinez]

Well, we certainly came close to firing up a playoff tracker thread. 6 points out of a playoff spot after the night.

I figured I'd update this after the loss. We got a few days off and there will be some movement during that break. Current 4 point window...

24. DET - 41 - 41 (14) - 8th OA spot
25. FLA - 41 - 40 (15)
26. MTL - 42 - 40 (16)
27. EDM - 43 - 39 (17)
28. VAN - 42 - 38 (16)
29. OTT - 40 - 37 (13)

Each of those 4 teams that are bolded will play twice before Detroit plays. 3 of them could pass Detroit. We'll see.


On the playoff side of things....

2. PIT - 44 - 47 (20) - Playoff Spot
3. CAR - 41 - 46 (16)
4. PHI - 42 - 46 (19)
5. NYI - 43 - 46 (18)

Only Carolina plays during the break so the playoff line won't change at all during.

The direction of this season is still very much to be decided.

Nice work! Thanks for doing this

 

[turkleton85]

If that happens they seriously need to change the lottery system.

Well, if they still suck with mcdavid and Draisaitl, und then Dahlin, the league might decide to delete the oilers franchise since they waste all the generational talents

 

[TheMule93]

Hopefully Ottawa will continue to turn it around

 

[Frk It]

If that happens they seriously need to change the lottery system.

They did make substantial changes to the lottery in 2016. I think that was largely due to teams like Edmonton winning it as much as they did. No one has good odds of winning now. Outside of singling Edmonton out and/or removing them from the lottery, not sure what they are supposed to do?

The odds of winning the first overall selection in the NHL Draft for the 14 non-Playoff teams will be adjusted to more appropriately reflect the current state of competitive balance in the League. This will result in a more evenly-balanced allocation of odds, with the 10 highest-finishing non-Playoff qualifying teams receiving higher (better) Draft Lottery odds than they received previously and the four lowest-finishing teams receiving lower (worse) odds. The revised set of odds will remain in effect year-to-year in the future.

NHL announces changes to Draft Lottery format

 

[Cook24]

How has Kronwalls game been and would he be a trade candidate if it’s looking like you guys will miss the playoffs come trade deadline?

 

[Perfect Human]

I still think we miss late April hockey once again. We have been winning lately because of the confidence in Jimmy. When the Wings play with confidence in their goalie, they win and play well. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be confidence in Pete at this point, and understandably so. The second that Jimmy loses the confidence of the team, especially the D-core, we are done; basically, as soon as we have a game where the team plays really well and he lets in 3-4 goals.

I love the Wings and hope they keep winning, but without two goalies that instill confidence, its over.

 

[Leadzedder]

How has Kronwalls game been and would he be a trade candidate if it’s looking like you guys will miss the playoffs come trade deadline?

Zetterberg and Kronwall will retire Red Wings.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

How has Kronwalls game been and would he be a trade candidate if it’s looking like you guys will miss the playoffs come trade deadline?

Kronwall only has another season after this, He will play out his last year with Detroit and then retire. I can see Z leaving as well after the 2018/2019 season when his money goes down to $1 million each in 2109/2020 and 2020/2021 seasons.