Rebuild conversation # 172

[Red Stanley]

I think the disconnect here is that other people don't call that a "winning culture," they call it "work ethic" or "working hard in practice." "Team culture" is vague and a little mysterious sounding, like something you can buy self-help books about and yet never improve.

And even so, I hardly see how the only way to convince guys to work hard is to for them to witness other guys working hard. They know how much money is at stake. They don't need much more motivation. I think the whole idea that lack of winning culture will ruin your young players is crap. It's an excuse for poorly built teams, lackluster coaching, and a general unwillingness to rock the boat.


(And if you've already given all your money to unmotivated players, the problem isn't the team culture, it's the management culture.)

Team culture isn't vague at all. It's the general attitude on the ice, in the locker room, at practice, in the training room, etc. Some people influence it positively (leaders), some negatively, and some just go with the flow (followers). The more leaders you have, the longer you can sustain the culture through tough times. You speak of motivation when referring to kids in their late teens/early twenties. More often than not they need positive role models to keep them honest and working toward hitting their potential. Self-motivated people are RARE in sports or otherwise.

 

[Red Stanley]

Where was Patrick Kane's winning culture when he won his first cup at 22? The guy boozed all summer long after winning his first cup and did it again after his second cup. Did Jonathan Toews give Kane a stern talking to about preserving Chicago's winning culture?

Anyone that seriously thinks having a bunch of Justin Abdelkader's on the roster prevents a losing culture from setting in, is straight up delusional.

Detroit does not have a winning culture anymore. Are people still going to suggest Detroit still has a winning culture after a few more years of bottom eight finishes? Detroit's new culture is "less is more".

There's a reason why Toews wears the C and not Kane. There's a reason why Abby wears an A despite being less talented than others on the roster. What's your point here? Nobody is arguing that you can sustain a high work ethic indefinitely without results. Nobody's arguing you can get results without having sufficient talent. I'd like to see Kane transplanted on our roster and leading us to glory by himself.

 

[Dotter]

If Todd_McLellan is such a horrible coach that is the sole reason why Oilers have a losing culture, they why did his team lead the pacific 3 straight years in a row? Why did he and his team make the playoffs 6 out of 7 times; made it to the conference finals twice.

I'm thinking coaching isn't the issue. And if having all those 1st overall drafted and generational talent is "isn't talented enough" is the reason, then dang. Detroit may as well give up trying to win the lottery. It obvously doesn't help even if you do get generational talent.

Or it's a "losing culture"... which is 100% what it is.

@WingedWheel1987 if Wings go on their 3rd rebuild in like 15-20 years straight and are still bottom feeders, then I agree you, you would be right; Wings would have a losing culture! Lets see how they do in the next 5 to 8 years before we start dubbing them a losing culture.

I, for one, don't want DRWs to be the next Oilers or Sabres or ARZ. I want them to be a winning team again from this rebuild. Go Wings!!!

 

[Winger98]

Edmonton has drafted in the top10 9 times in the past 18 years, one player was generational, another was Nail Yakupov. Still, we'll give them the full benefit of the doubt so there are 9 spots on a nightly 19 starters. What are the other ten players doing? How little ice time are they taking so those 9 top10 drafted players can carry them? Again, assuming Yakupov was a functioning NHLer and not Yakupov.

No, having one generational star and a few other very good to great players (depending where you rank guys like Klefbom, RNH, and Draisaitl) is not enough. It might be enough to drag you into the playoffs, but you need depth. Which now largely seems to come from the rest of the draft as the trade front has dried up in the NHL.

I wouldn't worry much about becoming the Yotes because I don't see the Ilitch's trying to peddle the franchise off to Hamilton in the middle of the night.

I'd be more concerned we end up like Calgary. This club does do well throughout the draft, they are drafting just high enough lately to get some genuine quality players in the first round, and they aren't afraid of spending to plug gaps. Folks scoff at it, but the wings are going to get the mix right at some point and wedge themselves firmly into mediocrity for another ten years.

 

[Leadzedder]

Well, the tank tracker was born out of 1 win in 11 games. Three straight wins is gonna put this tracker on the shelf for awhile. Just seems right.

We'll see what the landscape looks like after the 5 days off.



Team - Games - Points (Row)

20. COL - 39 - 43 (19)
21. PIT - 41 - 43 (18)
22. CGY - 39 - 42 (17)
23. PHI - 39 - 40 (16)
24. FLA - 39 - 39 (15)
25. DET - 39 - 39 (13)
26. EDM - 40 - 37 (17)
27. VAN - 40 - 37 (16)
28. MTL - 40 - 36 (15)

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Well, the tank tracker was born out of 1 win in 11 games. Three straight wins is gonna put this tracker on the shelf for awhile. Just seems right.

We'll see what the landscape looks like after the 5 days off.



Team - Games - Points (Row)

20. COL - 39 - 43 (19)
21. PIT - 41 - 43 (18)
22. CGY - 39 - 42 (17)
23. PHI - 39 - 40 (16)
24. FLA - 39 - 39 (15)
25. DET - 39 - 39 (13)
26. EDM - 40 - 37 (17)
27. VAN - 40 - 37 (16)
28. MTL - 40 - 36 (15)

Lol of all these teams Detroit still has the fewest Regulation Overtime Wins of the bottom 9 there.

 

[turkleton85]

Lol of all these teams Detroit still has the fewest Regulation Overtime Wins of the bottom 9 there.

i don't like the point system in the NHL, and not just because it prevents detroit from sucking as bad as possible. You should not get a point for losing, in any way

 

[HisNoodliness]

Hmm so we're on pace for 7th overall. These 7-10th overall picks can lay a good foundation for a rebuild on top of Larkin, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, Cholo, Hronek and Rasmussen. We're going to need to either have a couple 7th overalls outperform expectations and be truly elite or get really lucky with the lottery if we're ever going to contend. I'm just worried we're going to put together a good team that never actually challenges for the cup. Luckily this year 7th overall could still be a first line defenseman.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

This team needs to get back to losing games. If they win too many more, Holland is going to refuse to sell at the deadline. Mike Green must go out the door before he goes UFA.

 

[chances14]

just realized the wings have the sens second round pick in this years draft via the smith trade. So Ottawa continuing to suck isn't the worst thing in the world

 

[Pavels Dog]

Hmm so we're on pace for 7th overall. These 7-10th overall picks can lay a good foundation for a rebuild on top of Larkin, AA, Mantha, Svechnikov, Cholo, Hronek and Rasmussen. We're going to need to either have a couple 7th overalls outperform expectations and be truly elite or get really lucky with the lottery if we're ever going to contend. I'm just worried we're going to put together a good team that never actually challenges for the cup. Luckily this year 7th overall could still be a first line defenseman.

Still half a season left, and unless we drastically improve (not just a 3-4 game streak here and there) we’ll be selling which could lead to a rough end to the season.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Still half a season left, and unless we drastically improve (not just a 3-4 game streak here and there) we’ll be selling which could lead to a rough end to the season.

That's true, but so will a lot of the teams around us so we might not be able to drop a ton in the standings. Luckily I think Green will be the best player moved at the deadline and losing him will gut our defense. I don't think anyone else is going to trade a piece as integral as Green. Not to mention this team is a Howard injury away from getting a lot worse. He's had a great resurgence this year. If we lose Green and Howard we could have the worst post-deadline record... Hopefully it'll be enough.

 

[Red Stanley]

i don't like the point system in the NHL, and not just because it prevents detroit from sucking as bad as possible. You should not get a point for losing, in any way

They should just give out 3 points for a regulation win, 2 pts for an OT win + the ROW and 2pts for the SO win without the ROW. That's the only thing that makes sense with this current set up. Doubt they'll do it, because it'll ruin the optical illusion of parity at the extreme ends of the standings.

 

[turkleton85]

They should just give out 3 points for a regulation win, 2 pts for an OT win + the ROW and 2pts for the SO win without the ROW. That's the only thing that makes sense with this current set up. Doubt they'll do it, because it'll ruin the optical illusion of parity at the extreme ends of the standings.

i doubt it as well. and you're absolutley right, parity is artificially created with this point system

 

[Pavels Dog]

i doubt it as well. and you're absolutley right, parity is artificially created with this point system

So what you’re saying is that the point system works and changing it would be a bad business decision?

 

[jkutswings]

So what you’re saying is that the point system works and changing it would be a bad business decision?

No, that a good business decision has propped up an increasingly mediocre product, sometimes to the detriment of the fans.

Any lousy team can occasionally beat a much better one on a random Tuesday in February. (It's not like Arizona this year, or Colorado last year, went 0-82.) But that fluky nature is greatly diminished during an extended series. Yet bad teams continue to benefit from 'being in the hunt', either to a greater degree, and/or for a longer duration, than their standard of play really merits.

 

[waltdetroit]

The current point system keeps fans interested longer while teams are statistically eligible for playoffs longer. I doubt the PTB would change that . I had no problem with the old system - 2 Win, 1 Tie, 0 loss. 3x3 OT is really fun to watch. I'd keep the 3x3, get rid of the SO, and go back to the old point system, but the agony in the blogs for the teams out of the playoffs by December might just be unbearable.

 

[Pavels Dog]

No, that a good business decision has propped up an increasingly mediocre product, sometimes to the detriment of the fans.

I mean if it was up to me there would be no salary cap. Parity? Hell no. Give me 95-05 Wings. But the league wants parity and it seems to be working business-wise. As for loser points, I believe nearly all end-of-season conversions to standings without loser points show they have a minimal effect in the end. As with everything there are extremes, but a team that’s 0-0-82 is definitely better (in my eyes at least) than the team that’s 1-81-0 so why should that second team have a better position in the standings?

 

[turkleton85]

So what you’re saying is that the point system works and changing it would be a bad business decision?

i just said that i don't like how points are given out even after a loss in OT or SO, and that parity is artificially created with this current point system. I don't know if it would be a good business decision to change it.

But for me, it's infuriating when teams with the game being tied near the end of the 3rd, just play it safe to not lose the losers point.

 

[Redder Winger]

So what you’re saying is that the point system works and changing it would be a bad business decision?

It depends. Are games less exciting as a result?

Coaches around the league stress low-event hockey.
That's the opposite of entertaining.

They want low-event hockey because a game where you're down 1-0 or 2-1 instead of 4-2 makes it far more likely that you'll get a late PP and or a late goal to get to OT and salvage a point.

By the same token, there's not much incentive in the final 10 minutes of a tied hockey game to try and win it in regulation.

Coaches all over the NHL are preaching boring, low-event hockey.

What's more entertaining? Watching your shitty hockey team lose 2-1 and be out of the playoff picture on March 10?
Or watching your shitty hockey team lose 5-3 and miss the playoffs, but seeing the game open up with more offense, more great plays and more great saves, and be out of the playoff picture on Feb. 10?

Do the NHL owners believe their fans only want to watch teams that have a chance to make the playoffs?
Maybe they're right.
But personally, I'd bet on the sport's entertainment value and not the false hope of parity.

 

[Flowah]

If Todd_McLellan is such a horrible coach that is the sole reason why Oilers have a losing culture, they why did his team lead the pacific 3 straight years in a row? Why did he and his team make the playoffs 6 out of 7 times; made it to the conference finals twice.

I'm thinking coaching isn't the issue. And if having all those 1st overall drafted and generational talent is "isn't talented enough" is the reason, then dang. Detroit may as well give up trying to win the lottery. It obvously doesn't help even if you do get generational talent.

Or it's a "losing culture"... which is 100% what it is.

I, for one, don't want DRWs to be the next Oilers or Sabres or ARZ. I want them to be a winning team again from this rebuild. Go Wings!!!

Conveniently ignoring Mike Babcock and Toronto. Certainly wasn't a winning culture before he got there. Is it one now? They certainly do a lot more winning. More than us that's for sure.

Winning vs Losing culture isn't about the coach and it's not about the culture. It's about whether the team is good or not. Hard to have a winning culture when you're a crap team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Conveniently ignoring Mike Babcock and Toronto. Certainly wasn't a winning culture before he got there. Is it one now? They certainly do a lot more winning. More than us that's for sure.

Winning vs Losing culture isn't about the coach and it's not about the culture. It's about whether the team is good or not. Hard to have a winning culture when you're a crap team.

Wouldn’t give two sh*ts about culture if I know we could bring in Babcock once we wanted to start winning again. Dude is special.

 

[jkutswings]

Wouldn’t give two sh*ts about culture if I know we could bring in Babcock once we wanted to start winning again. Dude is special.

I think he was saying something to the effect of, Detroit and Toronto could swap coaches, and the Leafs would still win significantly more games than the Wings.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think he was saying something to the effect of, Detroit and Toronto could swap coaches, and the Leafs would still win significantly more games than the Wings.

Heck we did swap coaches, while Babcock was finishing dead last in the league in Toronto his first year, Blashill got the Wings to the exact same seed and playoff round as his predecessor with a year older core.

If Mike Babcock was to walk in tomorrow he isn't going to do much with that back-end. Heck in my opinion it is the reason ditched us. I actually think they turned it around one season too quickly in Toronto because honestly I am not in the Morgan Rielly fan club so unless Doughty does the unthinkable and does force his way home they are going to struggle to win the ultimate prize with their back-end. I think they needed another high-end draft pick on the back-end.

Now depending on who they acquire when that becomes a reality for one of Nylander or Marner I will re-evaluate. But there time isn't now for me, they aren't good enough defensively.

 

[Flowah]

I think he was saying something to the effect of, Detroit and Toronto could swap coaches, and the Leafs would still win significantly more games than the Wings.

Exactly.

Coaches are overrated. I'm not saying they're useless. I'm saying people vastly overestimate how much they can do.

Scotty Bowman himself, at best, could get this team into a wildcard spot. You just can't. polish. a turd. This team just isn't a contender and no coach would change that.

I mean what on earth is a coach going to do with the problems plaguing this team? We have huge problems breaking out because most of our d-men can't make the kinds of passes that good teams around the league can make. We turn it over like crazy. The coach has nothing to do with that. Where do you guys think our d-corp ranks around the league? The coach has nothing to do with that. No coach is turning Jensen into Lidstrom or healing Kronwall's legs or rewinding the clock on Mike Green. They are what they are.

Frankly I've liked the past few games with Blashill. The kids are getting minutes and a bit of a leash. They're getting good PP time. They're trying to force things more aggressively on the forecheck and backcheck instead of just letting people skate right up.

If Mike Babcock was to walk in tomorrow he isn't going to do much with that back-end. Heck in my opinion it is the reason ditched us.

Agree.

Babcock seemed to be at odds with Kenny about the way the team was assembled. He made his anger, generally, known with regards to the Brent Burns signing by SJ. Wonder if he thought Kenny didn't push hard enough there. He mentioned a few times in interviews that we just didn't have anything in the pipeline to replace the talent we knew was leaving like Datsyuk. He was dead on.

So on the one hand you have a dying team that's about to bottom out and a GM whose MO seems to be treading water as best he can. On the other hand you have a chance to be captain Canada, with a team with a clear vision and direction and a decent foundation to trend upwards. Money wasn't a problem either way. Not hard to see why he went with Toronto.