Salary Cap: Re-shape our current roster using a 64.3 mil salary cap

[Dipsy Doodle]

Anybody wanna try?

Click to read more...

 

[Jacob]

Why would I wanna do that?

 

[Darth Vitale]

What's the point? It's $71.4M.

This one is on a short leash.

 

[theicebox]

Perron - Adams - Kessel
Plotnikov - Malkin - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Bonino - Bennett
Sundqvist - Fehr - Dupuis

Maatta - Letang
Pouliot - Despres
Dumoulin - Cole

Fleury
Murray

 

[HugoStiglitz]

All that does is basically go into the season with a roster similar to this current roster minus Kessel. Which means the opening day roster would likely look something like this:

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Perron-Geno-Hornqvist
Bennett-Bonino-Fehr
Plotnikov-Spaling-Sundqivst/Rust/Fehr

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What's the point? It's $71.4M.

This one is on a short leash.

Why?

The point is that several people have pointed out how much our depth has improved since the last regime. Shrewd moves have been part of it, but an extra 7 mil in cap space helps a lot more than most realize. I'm giving everyone an opportunity to show how well they could make a roster using what the last GM had to work with.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

All that does is basically go into the season with a roster similar to this current roster minus Kessel. Which means the opening day roster would likely look something like this:

Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis
Perron-Geno-Hornqvist
Bennett-Bonino-Fehr
Plotnikov-Spaling-Sundqivst/Rust/Fehr

That's the real question though, right?

Do you go with Kessel or do you sacrifice depth, because you can't have both.

Perron - Adams - Kessel
Plotnikov - Malkin - Hornqvist
Kunitz - Bonino - Bennett
Sundqvist - Fehr - Dupuis

Maatta - Letang
Pouliot - Despres
Dumoulin - Cole

Fleury
Murray

There's an easy solution.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Trade Kunitz and Scuderi for picks.

Perron (3.812) - Crosby (8.7) - Hornqvist (4.25)
Plotnikov (.925) - Malkin (9.5) - Kessel (6.8)
Dupuis (3.75) - Bonino (2) - Bennett (.8)
Sundqvist (.700) - Fehr (1.9) - Farnham (.575)
Porter (.575)

Maatta (.894) - Letang (7.25)
Pouliot (.863) - Cole (2.1)
Dumoulin (.8) - Lovejoy (1.1)
Erixon (.6)

Fleury (5.75)
Zatkoff (.6)

= $64,245,833

Amazingly enough if you get rid of Shero's bad contracts it fits. This is a silly exercise.

You can't just say "well JR had more cap to work with" without taking into account that league minimum went up and raises to Malkin and Letang ate up $4.55M of that ~7M difference.

 

[Ally22]

But salaries have been accordingly raised up and inflated with the growing cap/market. So we can't judge our newer contracts with contracts 3 years ago. Furthermore when the cap was 64.3 mil, players like Letang and Malkin counted less against the cap, so it wouldn't make any sense to use their cap hit as they are now

Edit: what Waffle said lol

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Trade Kunitz and Scuderi for picks.

Perron (3.812) - Crosby (8.7) - Hornqvist (4.25)
Plotnikov (.925) - Malkin (9.5) - Kessel (6.8)
Dupuis (3.75) - Bonino (2) - Bennett (.8)
Sundqvist (.700) - Fehr (1.9) - Farnham (.575)
Porter (.575)

Maatta (.894) - Letang (7.25)
Pouliot (.863) - Cole (2.1)
Dumoulin (.8) - Lovejoy (1.1)
Erixon (.6)

Fleury (5.75)
Zatkoff (.6)

= $64,245,833

Amazingly enough if you get rid of Shero's bad contracts it fits. This is a silly exercise.

You can't just say "well JR had more cap to work with" without taking into account that league minimum went up and raises to Malkin and Letang ate up $4.55M of that ~7M difference.

That's true, it should be accounted for. Factor it into the equation. League minimum is fairly inconsequential though.

But you can't just say "trade Scuds for picks" either, because if it were that easy it'd already have been done. Someone other than Scuds would have to be moved.

At the very least you'd have to move one of Kunitz/Dupuis/Perron, IMO.

 

[Waffle Fries]

That's true, it should be accounted for. Factor it into the equation. League minimum is fairly inconsequential though.

But you can't just say "trade Scuds for picks" either, because if it were that easy it'd already have been done. Someone other than Scuds would have to be moved.

At the very least you'd have to move one of Kunitz/Dupuis/Perron, IMO.

Then buy Scuderi out, don't sign Fehr, call up Wilson.

You are using this thread to try to make an excuse for Shero, but the only player causing an issue in creating this current roster at 64.3M is Shero's giant mistake.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Then buy Scuderi out, don't sign Fehr, call up Wilson.

You are using this thread to try to make an excuse for Shero, but the only player causing an issue in creating this current roster at 64.3M is Shero's giant mistake.

Then you have less depth and are contending with less cap for years.

Shero's "giant mistake" is made out to be some unprecedented albatross here, but it's not. Any number of teams have similar bad contracts, and many have worse. Rutherford didn't have to deal with the repercussions of a truly terrible contract like, say...Semin here.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Then you have less depth and are contending with less cap for years.

Shero's "giant mistake" is made out to be some unprecedented albatross here, but it's not. Any number of teams have similar bad contracts, and many have worse. Rutherford didn't have to deal with the repercussions of a truly terrible contract like, say...Semin here.

So in this hypothetical world the cap is going to be 64.3 forever?

There's a very big difference between the Scuderi situation and a Semin like situation. Scuderi was not a need. In fact, I'd argue that at the time of the signing, Scuderi was the very last thing we needed. Meanwhile Semin was coming off a point-per-game season for a team with a weak offense that has trouble attracting free agents. Sometimes teams like that have to overpay. Now I'm not saying that the Semin contract was good by any means, but at least the logic behind it made sense.

This entire thread is odd to me. The cap goes up. That's what happens in the league. There have been times where Shero had cap space to work with and chose to just sit. It's not like he was cash-strapped his entire career here.

I'm at a loss of understanding what the point in defending Shero's honor is right now.

 

[mpp9]

Then you have less depth and are contending with less cap for years.

Shero's "giant mistake" is made out to be some unprecedented albatross here, but it's not. Any number of teams have similar bad contracts, and many have worse. Rutherford didn't have to deal with the repercussions of a truly terrible contract like, say...Semin here.

Plotnikov (.925) - Crosby (8.7) - Kessel (6.8)

Bennett (.800) - Malkin (9.5) - Hornqvist (4.25)

Sundqvist (.925) - Fehr (2) - Dupuis (3.75)

Wilson (.655) - Bonino (1.9) - Comeau (2.4)

Farnham (.575)


Cole (2.1) - Letang (7.25)

Maatta (.894) - Lovejoy (1.2)

Pouliot (.863) - Dumoulin (.800)

Erixon (.600)

Fleury (5.75)

Zatkoff (.600)




63.237 mil.

Done and done.

 

[Kristopher Letang]

And that's how you know you are in August.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

In Shero We Trust!!!!!

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Then you have less depth and are contending with less cap for years.

Shero's "giant mistake" is made out to be some unprecedented albatross here, but it's not. Any number of teams have similar bad contracts, and many have worse. Rutherford didn't have to deal with the repercussions of a truly terrible contract like, say...Semin here.

The recent problems with our cap really started when Ray decided to sign Scuds rather than let any of our younger D men play in the low cap year. There were strong indications we were going to sign Clark McArthur, who ended up taking a 3.25m x 2 year deal with Ottawa and put up a 55 point season. But then the Scuds signing was announced instead.

This whole thread doesn't make much sense, Shero screwed up our cap situation, and put us in a position that we had to pay Dupuis and Kunitz what we did. Shero was here forever, he didn't have to clean up any messes. He inherited Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury and could only manage to win 1 cup. He even screwed up the 2nd overall pick in his first draft. What would Sid and Geno have done with Toews or Kessel all this time instead of Staal?

You're just going to have to face the fact that JR, a guy with a mixed record, managed to accomplish more roster wise in 14 months than Shero did in eight years is upsetting for Shero fans. But just be happy Sid and Geno finally have a chance.

 

[Shady Machine]

That's true, it should be accounted for. Factor it into the equation. League minimum is fairly inconsequential though.

But you can't just say "trade Scuds for picks" either, because if it were that easy it'd already have been done. Someone other than Scuds would have to be moved.

At the very least you'd have to move one of Kunitz/Dupuis/Perron, IMO.

So because Shero made bad moves, we shouldn't give JR credit for improving the roster with his extra money? Maybe he should have been like Shero and overpaid to keep Niskanen or Orpik around.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So in this hypothetical world the cap is going to be 64.3 forever?

In this world you're dealing with Scuderi's buyout hit for the duration of the buyout.

There's a very big difference between the Scuderi situation and a Semin like situation. Scuderi was not a need. In fact, I'd argue that at the time of the signing, Scuderi was the very last thing we needed. Meanwhile Semin was coming off a point-per-game season for a team with a weak offense that has trouble attracting free agents. Sometimes teams like that have to overpay. Now I'm not saying that the Semin contract was good by any means, but at least the logic behind it made sense.

There are a number of differences between Scuderi and Semin's contracts, but none of them are more pronounced than the terms - one was manageable even in a worst-case scenario (which we're living through), and the other wasn't (which Carolina's living through). JR signed a player notorious for dubious work ethic and commitment to a gargantuan deal before he had even finished a half-year with the team. There's a very good reason why the guy got nothing but short-term deals from everyone but JR.

That's why I have a little chuckle whenever I hear about how JR has to deal with Scuderi's contract. At least he doesn't have 2.33 mil against the cap for the next 6 years.

This entire thread is odd to me. The cap goes up. That's what happens in the league. There have been times where Shero had cap space to work with and chose to just sit. It's not like he was cash-strapped his entire career here.

I'm at a loss of understanding what the point in defending Shero's honor is right now.

The point is that there's a pile-on effect that doesn't have much basis in reality.

When did Shero have cap space when he didn't have to worry about keeping the core together and there were good wing options that we passed up? And I swear to God, if anyone tries to talk about Clarke MacArthur, I'll punch them through the computer screen.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So because Shero made bad moves, we shouldn't give JR credit for improving the roster with his extra money? Maybe he should have been like Shero and overpaid to keep Niskanen or Orpik around.

I never said anything like that, and have acted exactly the opposite. I give credit where it's due to JR, but people need to understand the different circumstances at play.

The recent problems with our cap really started when Ray decided to sign Scuds rather than let any of our younger D men play in the low cap year. There were strong indications we were going to sign Clark McArthur, who ended up taking a 3.25m x 2 year deal with Ottawa and put up a 55 point season. But then the Scuds signing was announced instead.

This whole thread doesn't make much sense, Shero screwed up our cap situation, and put us in a position that we had to pay Dupuis and Kunitz what we did. Shero was here forever, he didn't have to clean up any messes. He inherited Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury and could only manage to win 1 cup. He even screwed up the 2nd overall pick in his first draft. What would Sid and Geno have done with Toews or Kessel all this time instead of Staal?

Shero cleaned up a bigger mess than Rutherford will ever have to contend with. Rutherford inherited a team that was a game away from the conference finals. Shero inherited a lotto team that needed to change the roster and organization from top to bottom.

You're just going to have to face the fact that JR, a guy with a mixed record, managed to accomplish more roster wise in 14 months than Shero did in eight years is upsetting for Shero fans. But just be happy Sid and Geno finally have a chance.

The forwards are looking a lot better, anyway. Like last year, the proof will be in the pudding.

 

[Waffle Fries]

No, in this world you're dealing with Scuderi's buyout hit for the duration of the buyout.

Right, but you said that we'd have less cap to work with for those years. If the cap is rising, it would balance out.

There are a number of differences between Scuderi and Semin's contracts, but none of them are more pronounced than the terms - one was manageable even in a worst-case scenario (which we're living through), and the other wasn't (which Carolina's living through). JR signed a player notorious for dubious work ethic and commitment to a gargantuan deal before he had even finished a half-year with the team. There's a very good reason why the guy got nothing but short-term deals from everyone but JR.

Like I said, I think the Semin contract was brutal. But I understand why a small market team with poor offensive depth would overpay for some skill. I don't understand why a team with poor offensive depth and nearly two different sets of NHL defensemen would overpay for a declining dman who poorly fit the system.

The point is that there's a pile-on effect that doesn't have much basis in reality.

When did Shero have cap space when he didn't have to worry about keeping the core together and there were good wing options that we passed up? And I swear to God, if anyone tries to talk about Clarke MacArthur, I'll punch them through the computer screen.

After the Staal trade, Shero sat on millions in cap space. He could have had space had he not re-signed Scuderi, Dupuis and Adams that off-season. As far as wing options we passed up, I'm not sure. Rutherford didn't build this wing core through free agency, he built them through trades. With more cap, maybe there would have been better trades available.

There's no pile-on effect. There was a discussion about how Rutherford has improved the roster from the end of Shero's tenure, which he undoubtedly has, and it seems you took offense to that.

You created this notion that the reason Rutherford built a better forward core was because he had more cap space to work with and without that raise, we couldn't have depth. (Again with the raises to Malkin and Letang, he had about 2.55M to play with) Meanwhile it is only because of a bad contract Shero handed out that it would be difficult to fit your self-imposed cap. So I'm not even sure if you're helping your argument with this thread.

 

[Shwag33]

The cap goes up, the players salaries go up. It's not like he just gets an extra 7 mill vs. shero. Other GMs have that money to spend too.

 

[Shady Machine]

The cap goes up, the players salaries go up. It's not like he just gets an extra 7 mill vs. shero. Other GMs have that money to spend too.

Yup. I mean as the cap goes up Sid, Geno, and Letang's contracts become a lesser percentage of total cap, but all free agent contracts go up to accommodate for the increase. It's not necessarily 1 to 1, but it's close.

Neal, for example, would be pulling well over 6 a year if his contract extension was due this season rather than when Shero signed him.

Plus, based on Shero's history, I guarantee we would have retained one of Niskanen or Orpik last off season, which would have severely hurt our chances to go get Kessel. Hell, he wouldn't have even gone for Kessel. If I were to guess, the moves would have been:

Niskanen 5 x 5MM

Trade Sutter, Despres, 2015 1st for Kesler.

I don't even know if those 2 moves would have been possible capwise last off season. I tend to doubt it but I don't feel like going back and looking.

Based on Kesler's new contract and that Niskanen contract, our roster this season would look something like (for fairness sake I assumed the Neal trade didn't happen. Let's say Plots happened since that was a Fitzy thing):

Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis
Plotnikov-Malkin-Neal
Wilson-Kesler-Bennett
FA signing-Sundqvist-Rust

Maatta-Letang
Cole-Niskanen
Pouliot-Scuds
Dumoulin

I assumed the Bortuzzo-Cole trade happened because it's hard to know what Shero would have done.

Niskanen makes that defense better, but that forward group is much worse than what we have now. Obviously Shero would have made some other moves, but I am attempting to show how Shero's preference for spending money on centers and defensemen hurt our winger skill and depth. This looks like a Shero roster. I'll take the JR one thanks!

I just crunched some rough numbers there and that roster above may not even fit under the cap. It's close though so let's just say it squeezes in there.

Point being, under the Shero plan, he would TRY to get Sid and Geno wingers, but he wouldn't prioritize them. His view of team building would take preference and Sid and Geno would be left with whatever scraps were leftover.

 

[Freeptop]

Why?

The point is that several people have pointed out how much our depth has improved since the last regime. Shrewd moves have been part of it, but an extra 7 mil in cap space helps a lot more than most realize. I'm giving everyone an opportunity to show how well they could make a roster using what the last GM had to work with.

If we really want to look at what the last GM had to work with, why don't we go back to the last time he had a chance to work on this roster? Which I suppose is why you chose the $64.3M cap mark.

Here's the roster Shero had at the end of the 2012-13 season (in alphabetical order by position):
Forwards:
Adams [UFA], Bennett, Cooke [UFA], Crosby, Dupuis [UFA], Glass, Iginla [UFA], Jeffrey [RFA], Jokinen, Kennedy [RFA], Kunitz, Malkin, Morrow [UFA], Neal, Sutter, Vitale

Defense:
Bortuzzo [RFA], Despres, Eaton [UFA], Engelland, Letang, Maatta, Martin, Murray [UFA], Niskanen, Orpik

Goal:
Fleury, Vokoun, Zatkoff

Now, take that roster, and do something with it.

For the record, that offseason was when Kennedy was traded to the Sharks, Adams was re-signed to a 2-year contract and Scuderi was signed to a 4-year contract.

 

[madinsomniac]

The majority here saw he Dupuis contract as a mistake due to age and the fact we were paying him market value with term coming off a anomalous career year.
Many also saw kunitz's as less questionable but still risky on the back end.
No one understood bringing Scuds back at hat price and term with the depth in the org where it was...
The fact was there was an ample section of this random public board who predicted the mess shero was building and were right. No excuses now... bad moves set us back years