Prospects and Marlies Thread February 2016

[garyjones93]

It would be nice with Mark Hunter being a part of the Leafs organization, and also a Part owner of London, there can be a compromise, with the Leafs Compensating London Financially. With Leafs management, with the Hunters, they could persuade they CHL to release Marner to AHL, even if they had to be financially compensated as well.

I wouldn't put it past this group to start a new trend, a new era. Money talks, and Leafs have a lot of it.

 

[SprDaVE]

It would be nice with Mark Hunter being a part of the Leafs organization, and also a Part owner if there can be a compromise and the Leafs Compensate London Financially, and with Leafs management with Hunters, they could persuade they CHL to release Marner to AHL, even if they had to be financially compensated.

I wouldn't put it past this group to start a new trend, a new era. Money talks, and Leafs have a lot of it.

They simply can't. It's in the transfer agreement rules between the CHL and the AHL/NHL.

No amount of money or power can change this fact. Nothing. At. All.

 

[VanW27]

That's not going to happen.

You're right it won't, but I think it would be better option than going back to Junior.

 

[SprDaVE]

You're right it won't, but I think it would be better option than going back to Junior.

I don't think it would. Completely different atmosphere. Different size rinks. Different continent. Far away from the development staff of your NHL team. The only difference is that he'd be playing against stronger and probably bigger players overall, which is moot because the rink is completely different anyway. Plus, I doubt Marner has any interest of going to Europe for a year, because he would have to agree. He'd much prefer helping London to a Memorial cup if anything.

I just don't any upside at all. I really don't think it would be better... at best it's a lateral move. But that's my opinion. There's a reason why it's never been done before, probably because it's just not that good of an option.

I doubt Hunter and the Leafs have any issues with Marner going back to London if he doesn't play well in training camp for whatever reason. It's one of the best development leagues in the world for a reason. If they actually think it's not beneficial for Marner to go back, then they will simply keep him at the NHL level to develop him further.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Marner in the AHL next season for 1/2 a season would've been really beneficial.

 

[crump]

I hope he gets off to a fast start in camp next season. I think having a prospect camp and then the main camp will help him get in the groove. The only think stopping an NHL season next year is health or a slow start. Give him the full 9 games and you will see he is ready imo.

 

[VanW27]

I don't think it would. Completely different atmosphere. Different size rinks. Different continent. Far away from the development staff of your NHL team. The only difference is that he'd be playing against stronger and probably bigger players overall, which is moot because the rink is completely different anyway. Plus, I doubt Marner has any interest of going to Europe for a year, because he would have to agree. He'd much prefer helping London to a Memorial cup if anything.

I just don't any upside at all. I really don't think it would be better... at best it's a lateral move. But that's my opinion. There's a reason why it's never been done before, probably because it's just not that good of an option.

I doubt Hunter and the Leafs have any issues with Marner going back to London if he doesn't play well in training camp for whatever reason. It's one of the best development leagues in the world for a reason. If they actually think it's not beneficial for Marner to go back, then they will simply keep him at the NHL level to develop him further.

I see your points, my personal opinion is having to play against much better and more organized defenses would be the biggest benefit of Marner playing in a men's league in Europe.

 

[glasses91]

I think marner playing for babcock would be beneficial to his game...

 

[Maplebeasts]

Nylander listed as #2, and Marner is #3 in THN Futurewatch issue, and Kapenen is #40.There is also a great article on Willie and the Leafs rebuild, as well as a good one on Chychrun.

Strome as #1 is off though. He doesn't have anything on Nylander except size, and that plus being a natural centre over Marner. Both of our guys have been more impactful since they were drafted.

 

[LeafsTop6]

Actually strength along with talent are the 2 most important factors. The problem is people correlate strength with weight and height which both don't necessarily factor in much with strength.

You see those small Olympic weight lifters? Those guys are stronger than just about all NHL players at a weight class of 140 lbs.

Marner size isn't a concern it's his strength. He's not even a strong 19 year old to put it into perspective and this will ultimately hamper what he's capable of doing. He has to get stronger no doubts about it and the stronger he get's, again not in weight but in pure strength, his game will be that much better off.

olympic weight lifters is a terrible comparison, the guys are usually very short for their weight.

But you are right, its all relative, as long as he keeps getting stronger to match his own game

 

[dimi78]

olympic weight lifters is a terrible comparison, the guys are usually very short for their weight.

But you are right, its all relative, as long as he keeps getting stronger to match his own game

... I specifically pointed out the 140 weight class which makes them extremely small in physical stature yet all are stronger than just about all NHL players twice their size as an example of how size doesn't translate into the strength of an individual as people keep referring to size as a means to strength. Strength training isn't weight gaining.... but thanks for at least acknowledging the point because I know I'm right. Marner needs to improve his pure strength, starting with core strength. His Weight is something that shouldn't even be part of the equation for him. He's naturally going to gain weight from just growing from a teenage boy to a grown man. Strength is what he needs to work on. He has to come to camp stronger than last year or he's back in jr.

 

[saltming]

I still fail to the see the difference it makes.

Patrick Kane's strength is completely irrelevant to his game. He is not "strong enough" by any measure. Doesn't matter.

Strength will lower the risk and types of injuries he could possible sustain. That is my only concern.
His skill is totally independant of strength and they can compliment each other. You can get out muscled along the boards by a much less skilled player.

 

[saltming]

No. Making players sit for long periods of time is a terrible method for development.

If your choice is sitting for games or ohl which would you prefer?

 

[saltming]

That would be a good way to ruin him. If they "Corrado" Marner, he would likely "Drouin" the Leafs.

The "Corrado" treatment is a worst case scenario for fringe NHLers that a team may lose to waivers. You don't do it to 19 year olds that are destined to be a major part of your future.

If he can't play every game, you send him to London. That's better than benching him for a half a season, and having everyone in the hockey world talking about.

I would be ok with this if he is not ready.
My thoughts were if he played 40 nhl games and practiced with the club wouldn't that still help him develop?

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He's not allowed to play in the AHL, you can't be 19 and play in Marner's case. However, there have been exemption to the rule in Ritchie/Nylander etc. There's a distinct difference in these cases

It's a weird situation to be in for Mitch. He's too good for the OHL, but may not be ready to make the jump to the NHL. People will argue that sending him back will promote laziness.

Then he has more problems than we expected. If he's not in the NHL, he must know he has something major to work on. It's not like there is not a spot for him, or he's not going to be given every opportunity to make the team, or Babcock is not willing to coach him on some things to take the next step. It would be because he's missing something fundamental that requires him going back to the OHL.

If at that time he's too "lazy" to work on that thing because he feels he's too good for the OHL, then he's not going to last long here. If anything, a snuff from the NHL should make him work that much harder. Plus, it's not like he's going back to a team without any talent. Pretty much the entire high end part of the team minus Piccinich and Dvorak should be back next year. He can fight for a Memorial Cup, and may be wanting that if he doesn't win it this year.

 

[SprDaVE]

To change the subject, I wonder if the Leafs will sign Cameranesi and/or Piccinich? Both their rights will be up at some point this off-season if we don't I believe (not 100% sure on Piccinich).

I would sign both I think. We will have the contract spots and they are interesting prospects, even if their ceilings aren't amazing. Cameranesi is having a great senior season and Piccinich was praised by Dale Hunter the other day.

 

[TheJet11]

Is there any reason that Marner couldn't begin next season in London (~ 30 games) until the World Juniors, lead Team Canada against the very best same-age competition in the world, and then play out the remainder of the season with the Leafs?

It would benefit London early, would allow Marner to be a leader with Team Canada, AND would likely delay his service time so that he wouldn't play 40+ games and be one year closer to RFA status.

Obviously he's got nothing left to prove in Junior, but I wonder if this is an avenue they'd explore.

 

[Magic Man]

To change the subject, I wonder if the Leafs will sign Cameranesi and/or Piccinich? Both their rights will be up at some point this off-season if we don't I believe (not 100% sure on Piccinich).

I would sign both I think. We will have the contract spots and they are interesting prospects, even if their ceilings aren't amazing. Cameranesi is having a great senior season and Piccinich was praised by Dale Hunter the other day.

Both are prospects past regimes would have signed just to keep something in the cupboard. I think they'll both walk as I don't think they have a good chance at an NHL future. I think they'd rather sign a depth player of some kind than try to develop someone they don't think will make it. The Grabner trade and following signings of veterans was some evidence of that.

 

[SprDaVE]

Both are prospects past regimes would have signed just to keep something in the cupboard. I think they'll both walk as I don't think they have a good chance at an NHL future. I think they'd rather sign a depth player of some kind than try to develop someone they don't think will make it. The Grabner trade and following signings of veterans was some evidence of that.

Maybe. But I think Cameranesi with that very strong senior season is worth signing. Marlies don't have a lot of centre depth going into next season, so he fits an area of need. His ELC would be a 1 year deal (At least I'm pretty sure), which means you can cut him loose if he doesn't show something good in his first year or so (similar to MacWilliam).

Piccinich I'm on the fence with though.

 

[Jeypic]

Actually strength along with talent are the 2 most important factors. The problem is people correlate strength with weight and height which both don't necessarily factor in much with strength.

You see those small Olympic weight lifters? Those guys are stronger than just about all NHL players at a weight class of 140 lbs.

Marner size isn't a concern it's his strength. He's not even a strong 19 year old to put it into perspective and this will ultimately hamper what he's capable of doing. He has to get stronger no doubts about it and the stronger he get's, again not in weight but in pure strength, his game will be that much better off.

well weight usually does correlate to strength when we're talking about athletes. It's why they have weight classes in boxing/mma. Of course he could get fat and that wouldn't do him any good.. But I don't think anybody's been suggesting that.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

To change the subject, I wonder if the Leafs will sign Cameranesi and/or Piccinich? Both their rights will be up at some point this off-season if we don't I believe (not 100% sure on Piccinich).

I would sign both I think. We will have the contract spots and they are interesting prospects, even if their ceilings aren't amazing. Cameranesi is having a great senior season and Piccinich was praised by Dale Hunter the other day.

We may trade them (Herzog is in this group as well). If we don't, I do think we give them an ELC. Both have deserved a shot in the AHL and while they may not be more than solid 3rd liners going forward, they deserve a shot to do that.

That being said, they have a lot of value in larger deals. It softens the blow when they trade away futures to us, and I have a feeling that's how we use them.

The way I see it, we have a prospect bank that will be used quite often this offseason in order for deals to get done.

Forwards
C/RW Sam Carrick (4th line shutdown and PK forward; NHL ready) - 24 years old
RW J.J. Piccinich (Bottom 9 two-way forward) - 20 years old
RW Fabrice Herzog (Bottom 9 power sniper forward) - 21 years old
C Tony Cameranesi (Bottom 9 speedy two-way forward) - 22 years old
C/RW Colin Smith (Bottom 9 speedy two-way forward; NHL ready) - 23 years old

Defensemen
LD Stuart Percy (Top 4 two-way defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
RD Frank Corrado (4/5 two-way defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
LD Scott Harrington (5/6 defensive defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
LD Martin Marincin (4/5 defensive defenseman with offensive upside; NHL ready)* - 24 years old

*Only two of these guys should be traded. One of the LD's should be a bottom pairing defensemen, then the other two or Corrado should become a 7th defenseman.

 

[showtime8]

To change the subject, I wonder if the Leafs will sign Cameranesi and/or Piccinich? Both their rights will be up at some point this off-season if we don't I believe (not 100% sure on Piccinich).

I would sign both I think. We will have the contract spots and they are interesting prospects, even if their ceilings aren't amazing. Cameranesi is having a great senior season and Piccinich was praised by Dale Hunter the other day.

I believe that because Piccinich was drafted from the NCAA, the Leafs have a couple years to figure that out.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I believe that because Piccinich was drafted from the NCAA, the Leafs have a couple years to figure that out.

No, I think since he moved to the OHL, he has to sign this year. If he were drafted from Europe, came to the CHL, and then went back to Europe we have some time (aka Herzog), but that doesn't transfer to NCAA prospects.

 

[Mad Brills*]

We may trade them (Herzog is in this group as well). If we don't, I do think we give them an ELC. Both have deserved a shot in the AHL and while they may not be more than solid 3rd liners going forward, they deserve a shot to do that.

That being said, they have a lot of value in larger deals. It softens the blow when they trade away futures to us, and I have a feeling that's how we use them.

The way I see it, we have a prospect bank that will be used quite often this offseason in order for deals to get done.

Forwards
C/RW Sam Carrick (4th line shutdown and PK forward; NHL ready) - 24 years old
RW J.J. Piccinich (Bottom 9 two-way forward) - 20 years old
RW Fabrice Herzog (Bottom 9 power sniper forward) - 21 years old
C Tony Cameranesi (Bottom 9 speedy two-way forward) - 22 years old
C/RW Colin Smith (Bottom 9 speedy two-way forward; NHL ready) - 23 years old

Defensemen
LD Stuart Percy (Top 4 two-way defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
RD Frank Corrado (4/5 two-way defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
LD Scott Harrington (5/6 defensive defenseman; NHL ready)* - 23 years old
LD Martin Marincin (4/5 defensive defenseman with offensive upside; NHL ready)* - 24 years old

*Only two of these guys should be traded. One of the LD's should be a bottom pairing defensemen, then the other two or Corrado should become a 7th defenseman.

Would also add gauthier or connor brown to that list.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

We should either trade or not sign Piccinich. He's not really worth the contract spot.