Propose a new rule for 2016-2017

[cujoflutie]

why don't we bring in nerf pucks and plastic sticks if the object is to reduce injuries at all costs?

The KHL has no fighting, go watch one of their games and tell me it's safer hockey; it's a lot dirtier and there's a lot more chirping and trolling. There's also a lot more absurd incidents.

 

[Otto]

why don't we bring in nerf pucks and plastic sticks if the object is to reduce injuries at all costs?

The KHL has no fighting, go watch one of their games and tell me it's safer hockey; it's a lot dirtier and there's a lot more chirping and trolling. There's also a lot more absurd incidents.

How many suicides?

 

[Sidekick]

re: fighting

What does "banning fighting" even mean though anymore? Kick a player out of the game? ...b/c they do that at lower level of junior, and fights still happen. We debate 'fighting' all the time - in or out, #of fights allowed. I keep thinking there has to be another way.

My preference would be to lower game-day line-ups to 15-16 (from 18)...I think fighting would 'lower' itself.

If you only had 3 lines, I'd imagine you'd want to be icing guys that aren't interested in fighting. AND if you couple this with an automatic ejection, I can't see how that wouldn't suffice.

 

[EvenSteven]

What does "banning fighting" even mean though anymore? Kick a player out of the game? ...b/c they do that at lower level of junior, and fights still happen. We debate 'fighting' all the time - in or out, #of fights allowed. I keep thinking there has to be another way.

My preference would be to lower game-day line-ups to 15-16 (from 18)...I think fighting would 'lower' itself.

If you only had 3 lines, I'd imagine you'd want to be icing guys that aren't interested in fighting. AND if you couple this with an automatic ejection, I can't see how that wouldn't suffice.

A few years ago the OHL went from icing 18 skaters to 17 in an effort to eliminate that designated tough guy or at least one of them. Instead, coaches chose to scratch 16 year old rookies instead.

The rule only lasted a month or so and quickly went back to 18 skaters a game to get the rookies back in the line ups.

 

[OHLTG]

You cannot prepare your brain for the effects of CTE.

No, but you know what you're getting into with fighting. You know you're about to be clocked by a guy trying to survive. There are plenty of risks outside of fighting that you can't prepare for, such as sticks/pucks to the face, skates to any part of the body, etc. It doesn't matter how frequently or infrequently it happens. A skate to any part of the body could certainly result in permanent body damage that ends your career.

My preference would be to lower game-day line-ups to 15-16 (from 18)...I think fighting would 'lower' itself.

I could see injuries going up there. Now you're asking for players to play that much more, which increases fatigue and lowers ability to make decisions on the ice. A player who's been on the ice too much can't react and protect as easily to a guy coming at him.

 

[Otto]

No, but you know what you're getting into with fighting. You know you're about to be clocked by a guy trying to survive. There are plenty of risks outside of fighting that you can't prepare for, such as sticks/pucks to the face, skates to any part of the body, etc. It doesn't matter how frequently or infrequently it happens. A skate to any part of the body could certainly result in permanent body damage that ends your career.

Right, none of which are preventable.. except fighting

 

[OHLTG]

They are preventable - thicker equipment, cages, etc.

 

[Savard18]

Or people could quit complaining that the sport should be changed to fit their needs. If hockey is too rough, there's always soccer or tennis. We're already basically playing hockey using women's hockey rules.. I never once got a serious injury from a hockey fight. You recover from black eyes and broken noses pretty quick. You're well aware of who your opponents are at the start of every night. You think twice about trying to lay a dude out when you know Chris Pronger or Tie Domi are gonna come answer that action. I've seen uncalled or 2 minute penalties for boarding and cross checks to the face and "interference" calls for guys getting taken out dangerously into the boards. A 2 minute penalty isn't slowing that down. A 5 game suspension isn't gonna curb that. I'm just waiting for the next Travis Roy incident to happen because no league is addressing boarding the way they should and now the players can't police that themselves. I'll take getting punched in the face over getting knocked head first into the boards ANY day.

 

[Otto]

Or people could quit complaining that the sport should be changed to fit their needs.

Like the need for a daughter to have her father walk her down the aisle? Or the need for a wife to grow old with her husband?

Sounds like the people who want to keep fighting in hockey only want it there to fit THEIR needs and they have no regard for what the long term effects have on the players and their families.

 

[Otto]

They are preventable - thicker equipment, cages, etc.

And those have been implemented. Now it is time for the next step. How about eliminating fighting altogether by making it a game misconduct and 3 game suspension. As well make all penalties 4 minutes AND the player must serve the entire time regardless of how many goals are scored. That will eliminate the goons and the rats

 

[knowescape]

And those have been implemented. Now it is time for the next step. How about eliminating fighting altogether by making it a game misconduct and 3 game suspension. As well make all penalties 4 minutes AND the player must serve the entire time regardless of how many goals are scored. That will eliminate the goons and the rats

How about they have to wear inflatable sumo wrestler suits so no one can get close enough to throw a punch? Seriously, this is the game as we know it and fighting has been part of it all along.

 

[Otto]

How about they have to wear inflatable sumo wrestler suits so no one can get close enough to throw a punch? Seriously, this is the game as we know it and fighting has been part of it all along.

With logic like that it's a wonder why we don't allow smoking in public places anymore.

The science shows the documented proof of the long term effects of fighting in hockey.

 

[knowescape]

With logic like that it's a wonder why we don't allow smoking in public places anymore.

The science shows the documented proof of the long term effects of fighting in hockey.

Well with logic like your's Otto we had best totally eliminate the sports of boxing and football; for baseball we'll have to use a sponge ball or increase the size of the helmets; soccer we'd have to outlaw the head-ball; race car driving I guess will have to have slower speed limits too!

OR

People could make educated decisions to partake in sports with known risks, based upon their own free will.

 

[Savard18]

Like the need for a daughter to have her father walk her down the aisle? Or the need for a wife to grow old with her husband?

Sounds like the people who want to keep fighting in hockey only want it there to fit THEIR needs and they have no regard for what the long term effects have on the players and their families.

I understand where you're coming from. It's a valid argument and I get it. If those needs outweigh your desire to play hockey, then don't play check hockey. Has that father or daughter been around longer than fighting in hockey? No. So, that's changing hockey to suit said individuals, not the other way around. I took a step back as soon as I had a daughter because my health began to affect more than myself and I had multiple injuries just before her birth. A puck that fractured my cheekbone for one and stitches from smacking my face on the ice on a clean tangle up and another from a high stick. I think I got in 3 fights that season. Zero injuries outside of a bloody nose. One fight because my head got slashed, another because I got slashed on while laying on the ice. Neither of those guys ever slashed me again and one is now a friend. I don't believe in fighting because I like watching fights (although I usually do), I believe in it because there should be consequences for players actions and fighting polices those actions in conjunction with penalties and suspensions better than without. This WAS a big boys game and I learned early on to accept the big boys rules. Written and unwritten. I didn't ask them to be changed to suit me and learned to agree with them. We both know this is a silly argument neither is gonna win that has been argued a million times over. I'm gonna try and dip outta this one now. You can relax though Otto. You'll be getting your way soon enough. Fighting is on its way out. It's just a matter of how soon. I just don't agree with it and my love of the game has suffered from it.

 

[knowescape]

I'm with you, when they drastically alter the tone and tempo of the game so I no longer recognize it, I will hang up my jerseys and find something else to do.

I call this the Kool Aid effect, you know on the package it says "makes 2L" (that's 2 qrts for our Imperial friends)... Well you can add twice as much water and it still *looks* like Kool Aid, it's just *isn't*.

 

[Otto]

Well with logic like your's Comrade Otto.

Its sad that you can't have a debate without resorting to name calling.

I don't understand what communisim has to do with the mental health of others.

 

[knowescape]

Its sad that you can't have a debate without resorting to name calling.

Since when is "Comrade" name calling? It means "Friend" Otto but if you like I can withdraw that part it doesn't detract from my argument. It is however classic behavior when someone is losing an argument to invent a side issue to detract from the main focus of a flawed thesis.

The fact remains, people can voluntarily choose to enter a sport or even a profession that is inherently dangerous or even detracts from their longevity. I know youth that are contemplating careers in firefighting, policing, military and yes even professional sports like hockey - all of which may subject them to severe physiological or psychological ailments; yet having weighed the pros and cons have still elected to proceed.

 

[Otto]

Since when is "Comrade" name calling? It means "Friend" Otto but if you like I can withdraw that part it doesn't detract from my argument. It is however classic behavior when someone is losing an argument to invent a side issue to detract from the main focus of a flawed thesis.

It's also associated with communism, since you inferred that I am attempting to have an impact on "free will" and since we are not friends and you have shown animosity towards me in the past it is construed as such.

As for the flawed thesis, CTE is hardly such.

Here's a Hockey News story on it

http://www.thehockeynews.com/articl...ently-brain-and-behaviour-study-suggests.html

In the story it speaks about people who "who experienced repeated head trauma."

Your contribution of "Sumo suits", "sponge pucks" and "larger helmets" really serves no purpose to the discussion and demonstrates that you haven't read up on the subject. As well you state that "this is the game as we know it and fighting has been part of it all along. " When in face fighting is met with heavy enough penalties at the High School, University and International levels that it is a rare occurrence.

Now, the argument that the rats will come out of the woodwork has been addressed by me. Heck, you could probably keep the minor penalties at 2:00 and just make the penalized player serve the entire two minutes and that would solve your rat problem. No one has responded to that instead they are worried about the one fight every 2 or 3 games they won't see.

How many more people have to suffer? How many more have to die? Does it have to be someone close you before it's a major concern?

 

[knowescape]

It's also associated with communism, since you inferred that I am attempting to have an impact on "free will" and since we are not friends and you have shown animosity towards me in the past it is construed as such.

Buddy - chill out, you are giving my argument more depth than I ever imagined (Communism??? Really???). I haven't shown animosity towards you, I have debated with you, that is totally different. I neither like nor dislike you, I don't know you.

As for the flawed thesis, CTE is hardly such.

CTE is not flawed, your argument that people should not be allowed to engage in dangerous acts is flawed. People can willfully choose to risk the lives or health in a calculated manner and do so. I have suffered concussions, I know first hand the effects.

Your contribution of "Sumo suits", "sponge pucks" and "larger helmets" really serves no purpose to the discussion and demonstrates that you haven't read up on the subject.

Lived it first-hand, I am quite familiar. Look up the word humour (or humor if you have a U.S. dictionary) and apply that definition to my contribution.

As well you state that "this is the game as we know it and fighting has been part of it all along. " When in face fighting is met with heavy enough penalties at the High School, University and International levels that it is a rare occurrence.

I wasn't debating that aspect, yes you *CAN* eliminate fighting, I merely stated it has always been part of the game and if it is eliminated there will be repercussions to the sport. Imagine if they eliminated tackling in the NFL and went to flag-football instead would fans still tune in?

How many more people have to suffer? How many more have to die? Does it have to be someone close you before it's a major concern?

Clap, clap, clap - bravo, that brought a tear to my eye - very dramatic.

 

[Otto]

CTE is not flawed, your argument that people should not be allowed to engage in dangerous acts is flawed. People can willfully choose to risk the lives or health in a calculated manner and do so. I have suffered concussions, I know first hand the effects.

Concussions and CTE are not the same. Yes concussions have an effect on CTE, but what happens to the mind & body as CTE progresses is much worse than a concussion.

Lived it first-hand, I am quite familiar. Look up the word humour (or humor if you have a U.S. dictionary) and apply that definition to my contribution.

I fail to see the humour in a senseless death

I wasn't debating that aspect, yes you *CAN* eliminate fighting, I merely stated it has always been part of the game and if it is eliminated there will be repercussions to the sport. Imagine if they eliminated tackling in the NFL and went to flag-football instead would fans still tune in?

Again, no it hasn't "always" been a part of the game. There is extremely limited to no fighting in High school, University, and International Hockey. . Football is a completely other story.. I don't know what they are going to do there. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the lawsuits being filed against the NHL now and it's affect on professional sport as a whole.

Clap, clap, clap - bravo, that brought a tear to my eye - very dramatic.

I pray that it never affects you or someone close to you.

Here's some more reading
http://www.letsplayhockey.com/onlin...a-serious-issue-for-the-future-of-hockey.html
http://alzres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/alzrt234

 

[knowescape]

Again, no it hasn't "always" been a part of the game. There is extremely limited to no fighting in High school, University, and International Hockey

In my lifetime it has *ALWAYS* been part of the NHL (and OHL). I can remember my grandfather explaining that fights were part of the game and he was a hockey fan all his life too - even if it was the Leafs.

Football is a completely other story.. I don't know what they are going to do there. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the lawsuits being filed against the NHL now and it's affect on professional sport as a whole.

The lawsuits will be settled, players will sign waivers when they join the leagues and more players will take early retirement at the onset of symptoms rather than ten years too late, but the nature of the sport (including the physicality and risk) will continue in my lifetime, there is too much money being made by both the teams and the players.

 

[OHLTG]

With logic like that it's a wonder why we don't allow smoking in public places anymore.

Not to go completely off topic, but some of the smoking laws are out in left field...and I'm not a smoker.

That will eliminate the goons and the rats

The only thing that'll eliminate rats is taking out the instigator rule.

I don't believe in fighting because I like watching fights (although I usually do), I believe in it because there should be consequences for players actions and fighting polices those actions in conjunction with penalties and suspensions better than without. This WAS a big boys game and I learned early on to accept the big boys rules. Written and unwritten.

I wish this board had a "like" button.

No one has responded to that instead they are worried about the one fight every 2 or 3 games they won't see.

Work + sleep = gimme a bit of time

How many more people have to suffer? How many more have to die? Does it have to be someone close you before it's a major concern?

Perhaps there are other ways to solve the situation. If two guys are willing to protect their teammates on the ice, why not have the teams/league protect the players off the ice?

Again, no it hasn't "always" been a part of the game. There is extremely limited to no fighting in High school, University, and International Hockey

You're going off in two different directions here, starting by talking historically, but then going into different areas of hockey. Fighting in hockey has been around for 100+ years. They only added the penalty for it in the early 20s.

 

[knowescape]

i wish this board had a "like" button.

You're going off in two different directions here, starting by talking historically, but then going into different areas of hockey. Fighting in hockey has been around for 100+ years. They only added the penalty for it in the early 20s.

[like]

 

[ohloutsider]

Sorry to jump off line but I have another rule the league should add - Mandatory for all players to come on the ice if awarded one of the three stars. I think it looks real bad to the young kids when a star of the game won't come out of the dressing room. Usually if they are on the losing team and wish to stay in the dressing room and pout. What Marner did the other night in Kitchener was great for the kids. Not sure if he would have done that if they would have lost.

 

[cujoflutie]

anyone who attempts to argue that fighting leads to suicide should be ashamed of themselves. They are clearly taking advantage of that one unfortunate offseason in which three former enforcers committed suicide and using it for their anti-fighting agenda. Are you happy those guys died to help fuel your argument?

Fighting like many things in hockey can lead to head injuries. Sports doctors did not know nearly as much about concussions years ago as they did now. Had the concussion protocals of today been in place 20 years earlier, there would have been fewer of them, less sever ones and specifically fewer repeat concussions on the same players.

Increasing penalties to 4 minutes wont eliminate rats. What it will do is cause rats to try harder to agitate the stars; who wouldn't eliminate their rat along with the oppositions star for 4 minutes? It will also increase diving which is out of control especially at the junior level.

any injuries which could be caused by fighting could also be caused by hitting. Should the sport revert to non-contact?

There's an evolution in place already for fighting; we're not seeing the designated enforcer any more, teams have switched gears to getting players who can play but will drop the gloves if they have to.