GDT: | Preseason Game #5 | Pens vs Wings | 1930hrs EST | Its the final countdown

[ChaosAgent]

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I'm really getting tired of seeing these numbers when Zucker and Malkin are together.
Shout out to our 3rd line for being solid.

That L2...barf

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Doesn't matter who plays with Malkin if he plays like he did tonight

Like, what are you people complaining here trying to accomplish? Why complain about Malkin's wingers in a game where both of Malkin's wingers had goals and any issues with the 2nd line at 5v5 was because of Malkin not playing well?

I'm not directing anything at Zucker individually man. It's about the combination. Zucker's effort was fine today and he does look improved in camp.
I just feel that if you put Malkin with Heinen then you'll get better results. That's it.
There'll be 50CF nights instead of 35. Better chance ratios. Fewer giveaways. Stuff like that.

Heinen stabilizes things there. I can go into the reasons I think that is, but they don't matter. It just works.
It's not amazing but it's reliable. Their finishing together was awful. That's all that was missing.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I'm not directing anything at Zucker individually man. It's about the combination. Zucker's effort was fine today and he does look improved in camp.
I just feel that if you put Malkin with Heinen then you'll get better results. That's it.
There'll be 50CF nights instead of 35. Better chance ratios. Fewer giveaways. Stuff like that.

Heinen stabilizes things there. I can go into the reasons I think that is, but they don't matter. It just works.
It's not amazing but it's reliable. Their finishing together was awful. That's all that was missing.

You really love this Heinen kid, I just dont see it, I dont think he should be on anyone's top 6 on a legitimate NHL club.

What does he do so well defensively that stands out? I just dont see it

 

[Turin]

That L2...barf

Well.. Petry, Crosby, Guentzel and Rakell are also barf there. Basically everybody besides Kapanen and Poehling lol. Wouldn’t put much stock into it

 

[Peat]

I'm not directing anything at Zucker individually man. It's about the combination. Zucker's effort was fine today and he does look improved in camp.
I just feel that if you put Malkin with Heinen then you'll get better results. That's it.
There'll be 50CF nights instead of 35. Better chance ratios. Fewer giveaways. Stuff like that.

Heinen stabilizes things there. I can go into the reasons I think that is, but they don't matter. It just works.
It's not amazing but it's reliable. Their finishing together was awful. That's all that was missing.

I didn't see the combination as the problem. I didn't see Zucker not being in the right place for Malkin to make plays to, or Zucker making bad plays that Heinen wouldn't have. I just pure and simple saw Malkin constantly try to make his way through crowds single handed, committing to the forecheck when he should have backed off, and all the other things that are going to make things hard for a line no matter who else is on the line. There were probably other problems too, there always are, but ultimately I didn't see the combination as being a problem,

 

[Gurglesons]

I also don’t see why you mess up what Heinen brings on L3. Moving him out for Zucker gives us no actual playmaking on L3.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You really love this Heinen kid, I just dont see it, I dont think he should be on anyone's top 6 on a legitimate NHL club.

What does he do so well defensively that stands out? I just dont see it.

I'm talking about functional combinations that have a history of success vs combinations that don't.
But of course you have to make it about my emotions lol.
Let me know when we can have a non-petty conversation about hockey.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I didn't see the combination as the problem. I didn't see Zucker not being in the right place for Malkin to make plays to, or Zucker making bad plays that Heinen wouldn't have. I just pure and simple saw Malkin constantly try to make his way through crowds single handed, committing to the forecheck, and all the other things that are going to make things hard for a line no matter who else is on the line. There were probably other problems too, there always are, but ultimately I didn't see the combination as being a problem,

I agree that Malkin was the problem today. Let's say he's better next game. Are they going to be able to pass to each other and rag the puck effectively?
Is there gonna be good communication and understanding? When have we ever seen that from them?

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I'm talking about functional combinations that have a history of success vs combinations that don't.
But of course you have to make it about my emotions lol.
Let me know when we can have a non-petty conversation about hockey.

You might get more defensive or emotional about a post quicker than I have ever seen anyone.

I actually was making a post about a player you have been hyping and giving you the platform to explain. As I said I just dont see it. Please re-read what I typed and ask yourself, is this poster attacking my emotions?

If you think so you read it wrong.

 

[LiffLaff]

I missed most of the third, but I thought CDS had a great game, they had some nice puckmovment, and the pace was really good.
While both are works in progress, I really like the look of our bottom six D, with more chemistry built, I think they can be really good.

Malkin looked a step behind today, hopefully he just needs to get back in the groove of things before we see him galloping through the neutral zone in vintage style.
Allround a pretty entertaining game id say.

 

[Gurglesons]

I agree that Malkin was the problem today. Let's say he's better next game. Are they going to be able to pass to each other and rag the puck effectively?
Is there gonna be good communication and understanding? When have we ever seen that from them?

I mean they made numerous plays tonight. I’m not honestly sure how CA and SA numbers show a line isn’t offensive clicking.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

You might get more defensive or emotional about a post quicker than I have ever seen anyone.

I actually was making a post about a player you have been hyping and giving you the platform to explain. As I said I just dont see it. Please re-read what I typed and ask yourself, is this poster attacking my emotions?

If you think so you read it wrong.

I've already explained it. We had this convo. You rejected (or didn't hear) my reasoning and went back to your default.
Even if my line stat tool was working and I compared the combinations now for you in black and white, it wouldn't help. Last time I gave you stats you mocked me for using them so much.
So what can I even add at this point? The door is closed.

 

[Peat]

I agree that Malkin was the problem today. Let's say he's better next game. Are they going to be able to pass to each other and rag the puck effectively?
Is there gonna be good communication and understanding? When have we ever seen that from them?

Think there could be. I saw them pass and communicate well at times. I know I saw them pass well and communicate the first they played together, saw bits of it at the end of last season too.

I think people overstate their communication problems in the face of very underwhelming results, but Zucker's and Malkin's history can neatly be divided into times when Zucker played with a skating impaired Malkin (very ugly) and when he didn't which is a small sample that has some encouraging results.

This game, I thought Geno's skating simply looked a step below where it should be once he's properly got his legs under him.

At the very least I'd like to see some games with both fit, and with Geno playing like we know he can, before I absolutely committed one way or the other.

 

[Andy99]

Then why are you complaining about Zucker and Malkin in here then?

Zucker looks very good so far. Any sort of shortcomings with the second line from today was on Malkin. Complaining about Zucker not being "much improved" when he clearly is much improved is complaining for the sake of complaining.



Doesn't matter who plays with Malkin if he plays like he did tonight

Like, what are you people complaining here trying to accomplish? Why complain about Malkin's wingers in a game where both of Malkin's wingers had goals and any issues with the 2nd line at 5v5 was because of Malkin not playing well?

Never said Zucker didn’t look good…I said that combo has not been good in the past…i disagree w the notion that a line is solely judged by how well the center plays on a given night…

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I've already explained it. We had this convo. You rejected (or didn't hear) my reasoning and went back to your default.
Even if my line stat tool was working and I compared the combinations now for you in black and white, it wouldn't help. Last time I gave you stats you mocked me for using them so much.
So what can I even add at this point? The door is closed.

I didn't mock you I just said that many of those analytic charts have major flaws. I am not saying I am right but I really dont think Heinen belongs in an NHL top 6

You seem to get real worked up if someone disagrees with you, sorry you feel that way but not everyone is always going to agree with you just as you dont agree with me. I wasn't "attacking your emotions" though I was giving you opportunity to further explain.

Never said Zucker didn’t look good…I said that combo has not been good in the past…i disagree w the notion that a line is solely judged by how well the center plays on a given night…

A pretty small sample size of a healthy Zucker/Malkin has played together in the past. Just as I wouldn't mind seeing a larger sample size of Rakell included with

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I didn't mock you I just said that many of those analytic charts have major flaws. I am not saying I am right but I really dont think Heinen belongs in an NHL top 6

Look up the stats yourself. Use the line tool. Come to your own conclusions about what works.

 

[Gurglesons]

Never said Zucker didn’t look good…I said that combo has not been good in the past…i disagree w the notion that a line is solely judged by how well the center plays on a given night…

As @Peat has pointed out many times Zucker and Malkin have not played healthy minutes together outside of the 19-20 bubble.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Think there could be. I saw them pass and communicate well at times. I know I saw them pass well and communicate the first they played together, saw bits of it at the end of last season too.

I hope so, since we all know Sully's gonna force it with this line come hell or high water.

I think people overstate their communication problems in the face of very underwhelming results, but Zucker's and Malkin's history can neatly be divided into times when Zucker played with a skating impaired Malkin (very ugly) and when he didn't which is a small sample that has some encouraging results.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's just been my experience watching them. I watch with headphones and often I can hear them yelling at each other clearly. The body language is off. Everything is too slow and poorly timed. Speed and skating is not why they lose the puck a lot of the time. Awareness and anticipation is.

At the very least I'd like to see some games with both fit, and with Geno playing like we know he can, before I absolutely committed one way or the other.

Sure, I'm fine with trying it again for like 10 games or whatever. It's a long season. If it's more 30-35 corsi nights with 1/3 of the high danger chance share then I'm done with it though. I thought Rakell might be able to help Zucker this year there but it looks like he's gonna be up with 87+71, at least to start.

 

[IcedCapp]

Yo it’s preseason, you Malkin cultists need to pace yourself. You’re gonna be spent by November.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yo it’s preseason, you Malkin cultists need to pace yourself. You’re gonna be spent by November.

If you want me to cool off then give me an IcedCapp

 

[ColePens]

I thought G looked fast. Good wheels.

 

[Peat]

As @Peat has pointed out many times Zucker and Malkin have not played healthy minutes together outside of the 19-20 bubble.

Given Malkin had elbow surgery immediately afterwards and was shooting like he was holding a wet noodle, I don't think even that should count.

But yeah, only time one of them didn't have a skating injury, and lo and behold they put up sparkling possession stats.

At the end of the day, I ain't gonna persuade anyone. No one's going to persuade anyone until they get a string of games together fit. And I'm not saying people just dreamt whatever they saw. But I do find the way their results spike and ebb depending on who's broken and how difficult to reconcile with the idea they just don't understand each other and that's a fatal flaw where they'll never work with each other.

edit: Which I guess is my answer to you @AuroraBorealis, because that covers my sentiments and everything specific has been said before many many times.

edit edit: One last final thing. I dunno if it was mentioned in the other Detroit game thread as I didn't read that much, but Zucker-Malkin provided pretty solid possession stats and a +1 on a night when the team got its arse handed to it. The evidence that they can work is right beside us. The question is consistency.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Given Malkin had elbow surgery immediately afterwards and was shooting like he was holding a wet noodle, I don't think even that should count.

But yeah, only time one of them didn't have a skating injury, and lo and behold they put up sparkling possession stats.

At the end of the day, I ain't gonna persuade anyone. No one's going to persuade anyone until they get a string of games together fit. And I'm not saying people just dreamt whatever they saw. But I do find the way their results spike and ebb depending on who's broken and how difficult to reconcile with the idea they just don't understand each other and that's a fatal flaw where they'll never work with each other.

edit: Which I guess is my answer to you @AuroraBorealis, because that covers my sentiments and everything specific has been said before many many times.

edit edit: One last final thing. I dunno if it was mentioned in the other Detroit game thread as I didn't read that much, but Zucker-Malkin provided pretty solid possession stats and a +1 on a night when the team got its arse handed to it. The evidence that they can work is right beside us. The question is consistency.

I am in complete agreement with you on Zucker/Malkin going way back past last year, ive mentioned the small sample size multiple times. I feel the same way with the Rakell/Geno sample size although RR hasn't been injured but Geno was.

Keep in mind Zucker was at one point the biggest whipping boy on the team so even while both him and Geno were injured they were going to get no credit playing together and any positive would be diminished tenfold with any negative play.

They could very well not "fit" but I would love to see a lot more of them before I let a much lesser player play up in the top 6 and replace Zucker

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Given Malkin had elbow surgery immediately afterwards and was shooting like he was holding a wet noodle, I don't think even that should count.

But yeah, only time one of them didn't have a skating injury, and lo and behold they put up sparkling possession stats.

At the end of the day, I ain't gonna persuade anyone. No one's going to persuade anyone until they get a string of games together fit. And I'm not saying people just dreamt whatever they saw. But I do find the way their results spike and ebb depending on who's broken and how difficult to reconcile with the idea they just don't understand each other and that's a fatal flaw where they'll never work with each other.

edit: Which I guess is my answer to you @AuroraBorealis, because that covers my sentiments and everything specific has been said before many many times.

edit edit: One last final thing. I dunno if it was mentioned in the other Detroit game thread as I didn't read that much, but Zucker-Malkin provided pretty solid possession stats and a +1 on a night when the team got its arse handed to it. The evidence that they can work is right beside us. The question is consistency.

Any line can work for a game. I truly do hope they find something.
Let me know when Zucker can do this for Malkin though.

52-68 is the HDC differential when M is with Z. So what reason would I have for choosing that option?

 

[Gurglesons]

Any line can work for a game. I truly do hope they find something.
Let me know when Zucker can do this for Malkin though.

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I mean is Malkin’s line being 1 goal under going even some miracle?