POLL - Will Bowman and Q Be Back with the Hawks Next Year?

[Sarava]

I don't think it's fair to say he "inherited" a gold mine, as he was a senior executive under Tallon during the building of the core. He absolutely played a role in the construction of the team, plus he worked a considerable amount of cap magic work as well in extending Toews, Kane, and Keith, acquiring Hossa, and in various free agent and other deals.

As I said, I do think he did well with it for a while. I disagree with you thinking he didn't inherit a goldmine. Reports I heard was he was the 'capologist' and not much while Dale was GM.

If he had signed Kane or Toews to contracts similar to what Keith signed, we' might have 5 cups by now. Big credit goes out for the Keith contract. I don't think he did anything special with contracts for Kane or Toews, though.

 

[ClydeLee]

He also inherrted a team where every single worthy prospect save I guess you can count Crow and Bickell, were already developed and playing.

The cupboard was barren and the cap bonus's and Stegger/Buff deals had to get moved. The only remaining prospect Tallon acquired as GM was Kruger, and I think Ben Smith too. Everything else was barren cuboard he did successfully rebuild for the 13-15 victory.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Eh, I think that the Kane and Toews deals were very good bargains and were instrumental in our cap management as well. And Keith was viewed as a lockdown move as he wanted a guaranteed payday for years, whereas both Toews and Kane were viewed as superstars a contract away from a mega payday in their next deal as was common in the NHL at the time. Keith's excellent deal doesn't detract from the $6M cap hits that the duo each had. And squeezing two more Cups out of the roster seems like a stretch even with better deals, as 2014 was really the only other one where we were remotely close. Other years would've required a helluva lot more playoff wins to think that cap space would've filled in the gap.

And even as just a capologist, that means he was still a part of the decision-making process prior to 2010.

And to get off-topic slightly, I'm just happy that the pattern of superstars getting their mega deal as soon as their ELCs ended started after our era. I shudder to imagine how much more difficult of a task we would've had if Toews and Kane were adamant about wanting say $9M per starting in 2010 for a longterm deal.

 

[Game suspension]

I can't get around literally being of that mindset that you want ticket sales of the team to drop from after 1 non playoff season happening... That mindset is just thinking the Hawks will never have staying power in being a great market unless it's an elite team. That's awful

I guess it depends on what you mean by staying power. Is the franchise moving anytime soon? God no. I believe ticket sales WILL drop off after this horrible season though. It's not awful nor can I really do anything about it. What can I say. Winning sells. Losing doesn't.

The real test for whether or not Chicago is a hockey town will be 5 years of the hawks being an average team. We shall see.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Here's hoping we are. The Bulls were a nothing team fan-wise and then they exploded and made legions of diehard fan during the Jordan years that have stayed ever since. With any luck, the same's the case for the Hawks.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

I guess it depends on what you mean by staying power. Is the franchise moving anytime soon? God no. I believe ticket sales WILL drop off after this horrible season though. It's not awful nor can I really do anything about it. What can I say. Winning sells. Losing doesn't.

The real test for whether or not Chicago is a hockey town will be 5 years of the hawks being an average team. We shall see.

Sales (secondary market) will drop off a bit, sure, but I don't think they are anywhere near any actual impact to the Blackhawks ticket sales. Are season ticket holders going to give up their seats right now in any meaningful numbers? I highly doubt that.

 

[LordKOTL]

Crawford injury gives them cover. They'll both be back for at least one more year.

If those in charge have an incredibly superficial view, maybe that is the case.

I won't bore anyone with the numbers and extrapolation here, but in general Crawford was playing above his career numbers, and a regression from "Possible Vezina candidate before he went down" to "sub-elite 6M goalie" is indeed possible. In that case, we'd have to figure that him returning to career stats would indeed mean more GA, and likely difference making GA that our anemic skaters couldn't compensate for. Thus, we could tack on another loss or two from how we would've extrapolated Crawford's won/loss record would be from what he did this year...and that puts us below the line. Not in the cellar like we are now, but on the outside looking in.

If anyone is really looking at the season objectively in my opinion, it's not so much the Crawford's loss tanked the season, rather Crawford's incredible play masked the skaters' deficiencies (core or otherwise), and his loss exposed them like a man getting a prostate exam. So, if the logic is that either Stan failing as a GM or Q failing as a coach is reason for either to be canned, I don't think anyone in their right mind should think losing Crawford gives either (or both) a pass. Ditto on the players who under-performed.

My $0.02. Granted, who knows what the upper brass will think.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I guess it depends on what you mean by staying power. Is the franchise moving anytime soon? God no. I believe ticket sales WILL drop off after this horrible season though. It's not awful nor can I really do anything about it. What can I say. Winning sells. Losing doesn't.

The real test for whether or not Chicago is a hockey town will be 5 years of the hawks being an average team. We shall see.

Come on.

Chicago isnt a hockey town. Its a winners town.

The only teams that matter in Chicago are the Cubs and Bears. And even after that the Bulls come before the Hawks. Its better then it was, but its still nowhere near the big two here.

And thats not a knock on the Hawks, because that team forced themselves into the spotlight by being the measuring stick of the NHL. Its just that now that theyve slipped, those people eho actually heard a thing or two now go back to not caring.

 

[LordKOTL]

Eh, I think that the Kane and Toews deals were very good bargains and were instrumental in our cap management as well. And Keith was viewed as a lockdown move as he wanted a guaranteed payday for years, whereas both Toews and Kane were viewed as superstars a contract away from a mega payday in their next deal as was common in the NHL at the time. Keith's excellent deal doesn't detract from the $6M cap hits that the duo each had. And squeezing two more Cups out of the roster seems like a stretch even with better deals, as 2014 was really the only other one where we were remotely close. Other years would've required a helluva lot more playoff wins to think that cap space would've filled in the gap.

And even as just a capologist, that means he was still a part of the decision-making process prior to 2010.

And to get off-topic slightly, I'm just happy that the pattern of superstars getting their mega deal as soon as their ELCs ended started after our era. I shudder to imagine how much more difficult of a task we would've had if Toews and Kane were adamant about wanting say $9M per starting in 2010 for a longterm deal.

Agreed, but on the flipside how long could we or should we have signed them for on mega über-deals? Maybe they get their 9M, but for how long? After the DiPietro fiasco I think no one wanted to give über-long contracts in case the worst happened.

The other part is that in this day and age with the term limits...if McJesus doesn't lead the oil to a cup...how much of that 13.8 AAV will he recoup on his next deal? If Toews and Kane signed their 10.5 back in 2011, imagine how low their deal would be *now*, or when the deal would expire. Kane might still command something big, but likley not Toews.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Come on.

Chicago isnt a hockey town. Its a winners town.

The only teams that matter in Chicago are the Cubs and Bears. And even after that the Bulls come before the Hawks. Its better then it was, but its still nowhere near the big two here.

And thats not a knock on the Hawks, because that team forced themselves into the spotlight by being the measuring stick of the NHL. Its just that now that theyve slipped, those people eho actually heard a thing or two now go back to not caring.

You aren't wrong, but the Bulls didn't matter until they had Jordan and the championships. They obviously aren't as popular post Jordan, but they've built themselves a substantial fanbase. The Hawks are never going to surpass the Bears/Cubs but that doesn't mean they can't improve their standing and market share. They aren't going to go back to the dark ages. Their fan base has increased, even if you take off the people who won't come once the "party" is over.

 

[Sarava]

He also inherrted a team where every single worthy prospect save I guess you can count Crow and Bickell, were already developed and playing.

The cupboard was barren and the cap bonus's and Stegger/Buff deals had to get moved. The only remaining prospect Tallon acquired as GM was Kruger, and I think Ben Smith too. Everything else was barren cuboard he did successfully rebuild for the 13-15 victory.

Keep in mind, there also was a good part to the cap dumps. The Hawks had tons of draft picks the first few years Stan was GM because of the cap dumps. People can debate all they want on whether they did well with those picks or not.

 

[Game suspension]

Come on.

Chicago isnt a hockey town. Its a winners town.

The only teams that matter in Chicago are the Cubs and Bears. And even after that the Bulls come before the Hawks. Its better then it was, but its still nowhere near the big two here.

And thats not a knock on the Hawks, because that team forced themselves into the spotlight by being the measuring stick of the NHL. Its just that now that theyve slipped, those people eho actually heard a thing or two now go back to not caring.

I agree with you. Like I said I don't think McDonough gets this basic fact. If he did he wouldn't be dumping half price tickets on game days and f***ing his existing STH's. It is not baseball and it is not Wrigley field so if you act like an arrogant prick core hockey fans will remember.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

You aren't wrong, but the Bulls didn't matter until they had Jordan and the championships. They obviously aren't as popular post Jordan, but they've built themselves a substantial fanbase. The Hawks are never going to surpass the Bears/Cubs but that doesn't mean they can't improve their standing and market share. They aren't going to go back to the dark ages. Their fan base has increased, even if you take off the people who won't come once the "party" is over.

No, i dont think they are going back to delusional Dollar Bill days, i just think people will not care so much until they become good again.

I think you will see fans who went to maybe five games only go to one, stuff like that. I dont see a complete back turn on a team that brought three cups here. I see less press, which isnt that bad considering the Hawks dont get much press to begin with.

I dont think you will see the jerseys sitting on store shelves in abundance that you see now. Stores can put Bryant and Rizzo jerseys in their spots. Not to mention the toilet seat look the jersey have now look stupid.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Come on.

Chicago isnt a hockey town. Its a winners town.

The only teams that matter in Chicago are the Cubs and Bears. And even after that the Bulls come before the Hawks. Its better then it was, but its still nowhere near the big two here.

Fault in your logic found. And Cubs were #2 during the drought as well.

So, in a winner's town, the most popular teams are a team that's done one good thing in our lifetimes, a team that just ended a historic drought, and a team that had no following prior to being good but retained their popularity after falling off. Okay?

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I agree with you. Like I said I don't think McDonough gets this basic fact. If he did he wouldn't be dumping half price tickets on game days and ****ing his existing STH's. It is not baseball and it is not Wrigley field so if you act like an arrogant prick core hockey fans will remember.

I think McDonough likes to read his own press.

I also think he likes to take full credit for the Cubs and prolly expected a WS ring on top of it.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Fault in your logic found. And Cubs were #2 during the drought as well.

So, in a winner's town, the most popular teams are a team that's done one good thing in our lifetimes, a team that just ended a historic drought, and a team that had no following prior to being good but retained their popularity after falling off. Okay?

Let me rephrase what i meant.

Cubs/Bears town no matter what.

Hawks/Bulls/South side AAAers suddenly become relevant if they are winning.

Bandwagon town? For the other three teams, perhaps. Thete are the dedicated fans, but thete seems to be more when they are winning. Outside of the Jordan years, of course...

 

[Sarava]

Eh, I don't really agree. Hawks tickets were very tough in the 80's and first half of the 90s. Really the Dollar Bill era of scaring off fans when he moved Chelios, Roenick, Belfour, etc....that era is the exception more than anything.

 

[ClydeLee]

I moved away a bit ago so I have no clue what the pulse of the Bulls eraa is post Rose. But they were still a big drawl in the middling Heinrich/Gordon/Deng era. That still was a low tier playoff team but drew.

I know the Sox last few times they were good early in the season still didn't draaw crowds, there's not much they can do but get a lucky sustained success trend.

I think the Hawks can get to that Bulls era, they don't need to be great to still sell out the UC consistently and be a part of the main sports focus.

 

[AmericanDream]

Let me rephrase what i meant.

Cubs/Bears town no matter what.

Hawks/Bulls/South side AAAers suddenly become relevant if they are winning.

Bandwagon town? For the other three teams, perhaps. Thete are the dedicated fans, but thete seems to be more when they are winning. Outside of the Jordan years, of course...

I understand what you are saying about the Cubs - diehard fan since the 80's. But are they truly a Chicago team no matter what?

I am just trying to say when half the city "hates" you and most Sox fans do "hate on" the Cubs, they are lucky to have had the following they do for the past 4-5 decades outside of the city. Every game I have been at which has been hundreds has always had tons and tons of out of towners there. My point is the Cubs aren't just a city team, they are a country thing and they have benefited more than any team having their games on WGN all those years to get the following that they have.

Again, not saying for 1 second that there aren't a million plus Cubs fans in and around the city, but they do rely a lot on nostalgia and travelers every game to pack the park...we have seen the dark days of the Cubs when the stadium was half empty not too long ago, so I disagree that they will ALWAYS be in the top 2 - they just have that following you can't match, but within this city they have dropped behind another team or two over the years.

The Hawks have a massive following here, I wouldn't call it a fair weather thing either- they were the hottest ticket in town in the 60's for periods in the 80's and early 90's as well (until the Bulls dominance)...They will never be #1 team in the city which is likely your point, but at times they have been as close as you can get since the 60s.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Different time now. Late 80s early 90s Hawks were very good too on top of Keenans teams having at least three goons on them willing to entertain the old fashioned way.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Eh, I don't really agree. Hawks tickets were very tough in the 80's and first half of the 90s. Really the Dollar Bill era of scaring off fans when he moved Chelios, Roenick, Belfour, etc....that era is the exception more than anything.

And that’s the problem that will not go away. The 25-40 age bracket was the one most affected by the dark ages. Not us, but the other 90% of Hawks fans that age. I’m not a businessman but from what I understand, that’s the group of people that make the world go round. They needed to have people that were 6 or 7 years old in 08-09 witness about 20 straight years of contention. Well, those people are only 16 or 17 now so they came up 8-10 years short. Those people aren’t ready to spend money on the team yet. They need to get things back on track within a year or 2.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I understand what you are saying about the Cubs - diehard fan since the 80's. But are they truly a Chicago team no matter what?

I am just trying to say when half the city "hates" you and most Sox fans do "hate on" the Cubs, they are lucky to have had the following they do for the past 4-5 decades outside of the city. Every game I have been at which has been hundreds has always had tons and tons of out of towners there. My point is the Cubs aren't just a city team, they are a country thing and they have benefited more than any team having their games on WGN all those years to get the following that they have.

Again, not saying for 1 second that there aren't a million plus Cubs fans in and around the city, but they do rely a lot on nostalgia and travelers every game to pack the park...we have seen the dark days of the Cubs when the stadium was half empty not too long ago, so I disagree that they will ALWAYS be in the top 2 - they just have that following you can't match, but within this city they have dropped behind another team or two over the years.

The Hawks have a massive following here, I wouldn't call it a fair weather thing either- they were the hottest ticket in town in the 60's for periods in the 80's and early 90's as well (until the Bulls dominance)...They will never be #1 team in the city which is likely your point, but at times they have been as close as you can get since the 60s.

Yeah, but the Hawks have as massive a following as any NHL team nation wide. Probably the greatest reach in all the NHL.

Its not localized either. Fans come from everywhere to hear that dumb song after a goal is scored. Its the same thing.

As for Sox fans, let them hate. They should be worrying about taking advantage of the dirt cheap tickets over at the motel mall instead of worrying about Cubs fans.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

And that’s the problem that will not go away. The 25-40 age bracket was the one most affected by the dark ages. Not us, but the other 90% of Hawks fans that age. I’m not a businessman but from what I understand, that’s the group of people that make the world go round. They needed to have people that were 6 or 7 years old in 08-09 witness about 20 straight years of contention. Well, those people are only 16 or 17 now so they came up 8-10 years short. Those people aren’t ready to spend money on the team yet. They need to get things back on track within a year or 2.

That's a really high bar. What team in any sport is in contention for 20 years straight?


I just think people need to take a step back. This is the first really bad season for the Hawks in 10 years, in terms of the product on the ice. I'm talking about in the context off attendance, going to games, not one bad playoff series. Everyone can assume that this is just the tip of the ice berg, that the team is going to only get worse and maybe that's true. But the franchise has built of a ton of good will and one really bad season isn't going to change that much. If it continues for another 3-5 years, then yeah, maybe you have some real drops in attendance. But I don't think they are anything close to that.

 

[ColdSteel2]

That's a really high bar. What team in any sport is in contention for 20 years straight?


I just think people need to take a step back. This is the first really bad season for the Hawks in 10 years, in terms of the product on the ice. I'm talking about in the context off attendance, going to games, not one bad playoff series. Everyone can assume that this is just the tip of the ice berg, that the team is going to only get worse and maybe that's true. But the franchise has built of a ton of good will and one really bad season isn't going to change that much. If it continues for another 3-5 years, then yeah, maybe you have some real drops in attendance. But I don't think they are anything close to that.

Detroit did and they did it coming out of their own dark age. I agree that it is a really high bar. I also agree that it will take another couple years of this to fully deflate the fan base.

Above all else, it is my firm belief, and it is just an opinion, but I do believe a great number of the people who never watched a hockey game until their 20’s will drop them if they aren’t contenders. They’ll go do something else. As for us diehards, I can only speak for myself that I will do the same. I’m tuning in when I am home alone but I’m not forcing anyone to watch this garbage team with me and I’ll do something else without hesitation. Maybe I am just a bad fan but in this day and age there are so many other things to do than watch a crap hockey team.

 

[b1e9a8r5s]

Detroit did and they did it coming out of their own dark age. I agree that it is a really high bar. I also agree that it will take another couple years of this to fully deflate the fan base.

Above all else, it is my firm belief, and it is just an opinion, but I do believe a great number of the people who never watched a hockey game until their 20’s will drop them if they aren’t contenders. They’ll go do something else. As for us diehards, I can only speak for myself that I will do the same. I’m tuning in when I am home alone but I’m not forcing anyone to watch this garbage team with me and I’ll do something else without hesitation. Maybe I am just a bad fan but in this day and age there are so many other things to do than watch a crap hockey team.

No argument on the bolded. The fans that didn't grow up liking the game will be less likely to stay fans or go to games.

But the Hawks will be in good shape with the next generation of fans who grew up with them being a huge deal in the city and a fun team to watch win. On top of that, it seems that youth hockey locally is really booming so more people will have grown up having played the game on some level which will help as well.