Poll: Better future - Devils or Sens

[Masked]

You can slice that baloney multiple ways. First, Hischier isn't small. He's over 6'1" and at this point probably weighs at least 190 pounds.

He's 175 on the Devils website. He's also 22 and not likely to gain much. eight going forward. He's not short but he's pretty small for that height.

Bratt is arguably not a core piece.

Yet, there are claims he's the amazing player who is much better than Batherson? Which is it?

NJ has guys like Zacha and Wood and Sharangovich who all paced for over 20 goals who are all over 6'2" and 200 pounds.

Are they core pieces? The guys you're counting on to lead the Devils to the Cup?

NJ's AHL team was led in scoring by Foote who is about 6"4" and 225 or something along those lines. On the backend, NJ has a slew of left handed defense prospects over 6'2". I doubt either lineup is bigger than the other in three years. OTT may have better records but I'm skeptical it's because of a size difference.

You're talking about prospects as if they're sure things to be core pieces to your rebuild. You're counting on a couple of undersized centers and an undersized #1 D for your rebuild. It's not just size on your roster. It's size that can play on your top lines and pairings. Anyone can find big guys to throw on your fourth line or bottom pairings.

 

[My3Sons]

He's 175 on the Devils website. He's also 22 and not likely to gain much. eight going forward. He's not short but he's pretty small for that height.

OK, he's listed at 192 pounds on the IIHF website for this world championship.

Yet, there are claims he's the amazing player who is much better than Batherson? Which is it?

I don't know. To each their own. Why does it matter what someone else says when you are responding to me?

Are they core pieces? The guys you're counting on to lead the Devils to the Cup?

Do they have to be core pieces to be on the team and performing well? It's a big roster. If NJ gets over 20 goals per season from the Woods, Zachas, Shatangoviches, and Bratts isn't that a good thing or should the TOR model be followed?

You're talking about prospects as if they're sure things to be core pieces to your rebuild. You're counting on a couple of undersized centers and an undersized #1 D for your rebuild. It's not just size on your roster. It's size that can play on your top lines and pairings. Anyone can find big guys to throw on your fourth line or bottom pairings.

Meh, OTT fans look to me to be projecting just as much. Without projection both teams will still be bad.

 

[Hellraising Senator]

Meh, OTT fans look to me to be projecting just as much. Without projection both teams will still be bad.

Yet, when you hear other team canvases, other teams coaches say I g Ottawa is better then people perceive, I guess that's just smoke. Never hear that about N.J.

Any Devil that's wants to make an avatar bet on whose teams better next year hit me up. Loser changes avatar to winners logo for the next season.

My avatar now is from a lost bet

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Sens very easily.

 

[Icebreakers]

Sens because most of their players are actually performing at the NHL level and not just going off by projection.

Chabot, Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris , Stutzle are already 50+ point players basically in a full season.

 

[NyQuil]

This thread went to places I did not anticipate.

 

[SpezDispenser]

The Sens don't have any talent that approaches Hischier + Hughes. No, not even Tkachuk and Stutzle.

Bullroar that Stützle doesnt approach those 2.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ottawa should be mediocre next year and then start entering their strong competitive window the year after that, regardless of how other teams do. Ottawa's young core now should be in/entering their prime in 2 years while getting new wave of support from their second wave of prospects(Sokolov, JBD, Greig, Thomson, Gustavvson, this year's pick, etc..) as well as being able to add a great/star piece via UFA or trade.

It doesn't mean a while lot... but Ottawa finished the season 10-3-1 and this was their lineup in their last W against Toronto:

Tkachuk(21)-Norris(22)-Batherson(23)
Stutzle(19)-Pinto(20)-Brown(25)
Paul(26)-Brown(22)-Dadonov(32)
Formenton(21)-Anisimov(33)-Kelly(20)

Brannstrom(21)-Zub(25)
Mete(22)-Zaitsev(29)
Olsing(25)-JBD(20)

Gustavsson(22)

Their AHL also finished 9-1 and led by mainly prospects and 20 year old goalie.

Small nitpick, Connor Brown is 27 y/o. Also, Norris was 21 during the season, Batherson was 22, Paul was 25 at the start. Chabot turned 24 in january, same date as Colin White who were both injured for that game.

Would also start to mention Angus Crookshank in the next wave. The way he looked in the AHL, his production and Mann's comments, hard to not see him make the lineup in the near future. Just has to keep the same path.

The youth is stacked and ultimately I think that's why Abramov went back home, no chance to make the team even though he was an elite player in the Q and was very productive in the AHL since last season.

Sanderson and Chabot are also both 6’2.

Tyler Kleven was also already 6'4 and over 200 lbs at 18 y/o. He might be a very tough customer if he makes it. Looked quite good for a freshman in UND, another one on a great path.

Bullroar that Stützle doesnt approach those 2.

I have no idea how could anyone would have that "opinion"

Is it because Hischier and Hughes were both 1st OA pick? I mean, I doubt they'll be among the greatest 1st OA in recent history. I really don't see what Stutzle has to envy these 2. The 2020 draft was seen as a great draft with 3 high end talents at the top. Impossible to tell who'll end up the best among those 3 (probably Lafreniere) but really, no idea why Stutzle should be seen as a lesser talent than Hischier/Hughes.

Again, Stutzle easily won the poll vs Hughes, but it's recency bias, new shiny toy syndrome, the whole hockey world is wrong!

It doesn't mean that Hughes can't end up as the best player but "Stützle doesnt approach those 2" or "isn't up there with Hughes" are quite ridiculous biased homer opinions.

 

[SpezDispenser]

Small nitpick, Connor Brown is 27 y/o. Also, Norris was 21 during the season, Batherson was 22, Paul was 25 at the start. Chabot turned 24 in january, same date as Colin White who were both injured for that game.

Would also start to mention Angus Crookshank in the next wave. The way he looked in the AHL, his production and Mann's comments, hard to not see him make the lineup in the near future. Just has to keep the same path.

The youth is stacked and ultimately I think that's why Abramov went back home, no chance to make the team even though he was an elite player in the Q and was very productive in the AHL since last season.



Tyler Kleven was also already 6'4 and over 200 lbs at 18 y/o. He might be a very tough customer if he makes it. Looked quite good for a freshman in UND, another one on a great path.



I have no idea how could anyone would have that "opinion"

Is it because Hischier and Hughes were both 1st OA pick? I mean, I doubt they'll be among the greatest 1st OA in recent history. I really don't see what Stutzle has to envy these 2. The 2020 draft was seen as a great draft with 3 high end talents at the top. Impossible to tell who'll end up the best among those 3 (probably Lafreniere) but really, no idea why Stutzle should be seen as a lesser talent than Hischier/Hughes.

Again, Stutzle easily won the poll vs Hughes, but it's recency bias, new shiny toy syndrome, the whole hockey world is wrong!

It doesn't mean that Hughes can't end up as the best player but "Stützle doesnt approach those 2" or "isn't up there with Hughes" are quite ridiculous biased homer opinions.

Yeah, there's nothing in the world to suggest that Stützle won't stack up and more to those 2 players.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

The Sens don't have any talent that approaches Hischier + Hughes. No, not even Tkachuk and Stutzle.

Never go full ....

Stutzle will easily surpass both.

 

[Habs 4 Life]

Ottawa no doubt

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Never go full ....

Stutzle will easily surpass both.

Why do you say this?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Sens because most of their players are actually performing at the NHL level and not just going off by projection.

Chabot, Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris , Stutzle are already 50+ point players basically in a full season.

This point is kind of dumb because the question is literally about projection and not who’s doing better now. It’s also not really true either. The devils young players have been performing and are productive. Better production also doesn’t mean better performance. Jack Hughes has performed much better than his point totals which are good for a 19 year old anyways.

Points rates adjusted to a full 82 games:

Zacha- 57 points
Bratt- 53 points
Sharangovich- 46
Hughes- 45
Kuokkonen- 41
Smith(d)- 39
Hischier- 43 missed a ton of the season because of injuries and his point totals were definitely affected but has put up 3 50+ point seasons at 18,19, and 20.

Tkachuk- 52 points
Chabot(d)- 52 points
Norris- 52
Batherson- 50
Stutzle- 45
Brannstrom(d)-35
White- 33

Average age from when they start next season is the exact same

If you add up the points of the first 6 guys from both, the sens guys have 5 more points. That being said Chabot is a dman which is much better but if you put Hischier(even with a bit lower of a scoring rate due to his injuries) and White in the devils would be ahead. There is not a significant advantage to the senators here at all.

I find it hard to say who’s gonna be better in the future because both teams have a lot of young talent and it’s gonna depend on who’s talent develops best and what else their GM’s do going forward. Each team is clearly better in some areas and both have some good prospects in the pipeline and picks coming up. Only time will tell but I certainly hope it’s the devils.

 

[Favin]

I voted Devils. But think both teams will be solid. Tons of young depth for both squads.

Sharangovich tipped the scales for me. I still don't think most NHL fans realize how much potential he has.

 

[WilyStyless03SHYla]

Sens seem more well-rounded. Could use more depth down the middle, though.

More Canadian boys on the sens

 

[Samsquanch]

I could be wrong, but I feel like Stutzle, Tkachuk and Chabot are going to collectively be regarded as a much better core to build around versus Hischier, Hughes, and whomever they choose for their 3rd player.

I dont like Hischier or Hughes as core players myself, and I see both of them more as 2nd line type top 6; support players. I think both will amount to something close to Nuggent-Hopkins when its all said and done. And I cant help but feel like an MVP caliber Hall and peaking Palmieri greatly helped Hischiers stats a lot in his first 3 seasons, and Im very skeptical of him being a line driving #1C on his own. Hughes even moreso.

The difference with the Ottawa youth is that they've all made great forward progress over the last few seasons after seeing their star vets depart and were left to fend for themselves. And they rose to the challenge and became the uncontested leaders of their team (that had rallied together and played at a playoff pace outside of the first 15 games) by the end of this season. They were the ones carrying the team on their shoulders.

The Sens core of players is ready to make a playoff push lead soley by their kids next season - whereas I only see the Devils youth continue to either stagnate, or they have outright regressed as their responsibility has increased as the guys carrying the load have departed.

I dont see a team on the rise tbh, not until Hughes and Hischier can take it to another level and show that they can be the key blocks to build a team around.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I could be wrong, but I feel like Stutzle, Tkachuk and Chabot are going to collectively be regarded as a much better core to build around versus Hischier, Hughes, and whomever they choose for their 3rd player.

I dont like Hischier or Hughes as core players myself, and I see both of them more as 2nd line type top 6; support players. I think both will amount to something close to Nuggent-Hopkins when its all said and done. And I cant help but feel like an MVP caliber Hall and peaking Palmieri greatly helped Hischiers stats a lot in his first 3 seasons, and Im very skeptical of him being a line driving #1C on his own. Hughes even moreso.

The difference with the Ottawa youth is that they've all made great forward progress over the last few seasons after seeing their star vets depart and were left to fend for themselves. And they rose to the challenge and became the uncontested leaders of their team (that had rallied together and played at a playoff pace outside of the first 15 games) by the end of this season. They were the ones carrying the team on their shoulders.

The Sens core of players is ready to make a playoff push lead soley by their kids next season - whereas I only see the Devils youth continue to either stagnate, or they have outright regressed as their responsibility has increased as the guys carrying the load have departed.

I dont see a team on the rise tbh, not until Hughes and Hischier can take it to another level and show that they can be the key blocks to build a team around.

Sorry but all this take tells me is that you didn’t watch Jack Hughes or the devils much this year. The devils young players made a ton of progress this year and as I already showed in this thread, pure production wise the devils young players were just as good as the senators. Who the hell has regressed?

Hischier has potential to breakout offensively and he’s shown flashes throughout his career but he had a tough season with his injuries and it’s possible he doesn’t take off offensively. He’s already had 3 seasons over 50 points and even tho he didn’t quite look his best this year production wise his number are deceiving. I know hockey doesn’t work like this, but, if you took out the 3 games back from both his long injuries where he was skating like Patty Maroon and wasn’t gonna put up a point to save his life, his 43 point pace turns into a 60 point pace. Even if he’s only Nugent-Hopkins offensively, he’s a beast on faceoffs, better defensively and a really good leader for our team.

The Jack Hughes take is ridiculous. The majority of people who watched him this year saw just how good he is. He dominated games this season at times and you can see that in is underlying numbers if you’re an analytical person or by watching him if you just trust the eye test. He was also tied for second with Draisaitl and Connor Brown in takeaways and just behind Stone.

The paragraph starting with “the difference” isn’t actually a difference. You could literally apply that exact same paragraph to the devils young team.

 

[BHD]

The fact Ty Smith isn't mentioned in that post is telling.

Hischier, Hughes, and Smith are a good start. The Devils need more though.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

For the guy saying Hughes isn’t a core player and is gonna be more of a second line support guy but thinks Tkachuk and Stutzle will be regarded as much better core players to build around.




https://twitter.com/jfreshhockey/status/1385313737209487363?s=21

https://twitter.com/hockeystatscz/status/1372659122303344643?s=21

I will say that Hughes’s plays a lot but his minutes are somewhat sheltered. He’s still been amazing. He also had much worse numbers last year I beleive.

 

[Goomba]

For the guy saying Hughes isn’t a core player and is gonna be more of a second line support guy but thinks Tkachuk and Stutzle will be regarded as much better core players to build around.




https://twitter.com/jfreshhockey/status/1385313737209487363?s=21

https://twitter.com/hockeystatscz/status/1372659122303344643?s=21

I will say that Hughes’s plays a lot but his minutes are somewhat sheltered. He’s still been amazing. He also had much worse numbers last year I beleive.

This info is a lot of fun to look over, and im a child for graphs and charts. Visuals do me well

however anyone saying Jack Hughes is going to be a 2nd line guy clearly is trolling or is so far beyond their mental capabilities that they wear a bib 24/7

 

[Goomba]

The fact Ty Smith isn't mentioned in that post is telling.

Hischier, Hughes, and Smith are a good start. The Devils need more though.

Who from Ottawa are at that level, though?
Stuetzle, Chabot, and Tkachuk? Sanderson for OTT and Blackwood for NJ

so 4v4 in terms of high end talent/prospects

yet the poll would have you believe Hischier Hughes and Smith are the only talents NJ has under 25; not the team that just had 110+ rookie points scored in a 54 game season, along with the youngest forward roster iced ever, only matched by a 1980s Sabres team

edit: Sanderson and Blackwood as someone mentioned

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Who from Ottawa are at that level, though?
Stuetzle, Chabot, and Tkachuk?

so 3 vs 3 in terms of high end talent/prospects

yet the poll would have you believe Hischier Hughes and Smith are the only talents NJ has under 25; not the team that just had 110+ rookie points scored in a 54 game season, along with the youngest forward roster iced ever, only matched by a 1980s Sabres team

I think there’s arguably guys being left out from both teams still if we’re talking about cores. Blackwood? Sanderson? And then both teams have lots of other talented players too.

 

[Benttheknee]

This point is kind of dumb because the question is literally about projection and not who’s doing better now. It’s also not really true either. The devils young players have been performing and are productive. Better production also doesn’t mean better performance. Jack Hughes has performed much better than his point totals which are good for a 19 year old anyways.

Points rates adjusted to a full 82 games:

Zacha- 57 points
Bratt- 53 points
Sharangovich- 46
Hughes- 45
Kuokkonen- 41
Smith(d)- 39
Hischier- 43 missed a ton of the season because of injuries and his point totals were definitely affected but has put up 3 50+ point seasons at 18,19, and 20.

Tkachuk- 52 points
Chabot(d)- 52 points
Norris- 52
Batherson- 50
Stutzle- 45
Brannstrom(d)-35
White- 33

This is accurate, however, it is missing the other assets.
NJ
NHLer
- Blackwood

Prospects
- Holtz
- Mercer
- Foote
- Mukhamudulin
- Bahl

Ottawa
NHLer
- Mete
- Formenton
- Paul

Prospects
- Sanderson
- Pinto
- Bernard Docker
- Gustafson
- Greig
- Thompson

I think that the two surprises for me were Sharangovich and Kuokkonen. These two are surprising and appear to really improve NJs situation. If they develop, then the Devils may very well have the better future.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

This is accurate, however, it is missing the other assets.
NJ
NHLer
- Blackwood

Prospects
- Holtz
- Mercer
- Foote
- Mukhamudulin
- Bahl

Ottawa
NHLer
- Mete
- Formenton
- Paul

Prospects
- Sanderson
- Pinto
- Bernard Docker
- Gustafson
- Greig
- Thompson

I think that the two surprises for me were Sharangovich and Kuokkonen. These two are surprising and appear to really improve NJs situation. If they develop, then the Devils may very well have the better future.

I was just talking about the top guys. You left out a bunch of devils if you’re gonna list off all those senators.

McLeod, Bastian, Boqvist, Merkley, Maltsev all played roles in the NHL this year and are solid young players. Miles Wood is also only 25 turning 26. Okhotiuk, Walsh, Vukojevic are all solid NHL d prospects. Graeme Clarke was really good in the AHL. Tyce Thompson spent some time with the big club before finishing in the AHL. There’s some others too and I’m sure the senators have other prospects you didn’t mention.
You just can’t bring up guys like Formenton and Paul but then only mention Blackwood for the devils when their entire bottom 6 was made up of young players. Those devils you left out had a combined 77 points and 243 games this season. There’s few other younger guys who played but I don’t think have as much of a future with the team.

 

[Benttheknee]

I was just talking about the top guys. You left out a bunch of devils if you’re gonna list off all those senators.

McLeod, Bastian, Boqvist, Merkley, Maltsev all played roles in the NHL this year and are solid young players. Miles Wood is also only 25 turning 26. Okhotiuk, Walsh, Vukojevic are all solid NHL d prospects. Graeme Clarke was really good in the AHL. Tyce Thompson spent some time with the big club before finishing in the AHL. There’s some others too and I’m sure the senators have other prospects you didn’t mention.
You just can’t bring up guys like Formenton and Paul but then only mention Blackwood for the devils when their entire bottom 6 was made up of young players. Those devils you left out had a combined 77 points and 243 games this season. There’s few other younger guys who played but I don’t think have as much of a future with the team.

I tried to identify players that are likely to be NHLers in 5 years time. As for the Sens, I have question about Thompson and Bernard Docker, less so about the others.

It is true I don't know much about NJ youth.