OT: Planet of the Humans

[AM]

Absolutely. There is a really good column by Rex Murphy in the National Post today. The president of Memorial University in Newfoundland, Dr. Vianne Timmons, spoke up for the oil industry saying that it was important to Newfoundland, important to her university, and pointed out that many of their engineers, faculty and students had benefited from the industry. Newfoundland is in big, big trouble. Several offshore oil projects have been shelved, unemployment is high, the population is aging, Covid has hit tourism. And fewer Newfoundlanders are working in Alberta these days. So what she said shouldn’t have been controversial. What do we get instead?? There was “nearly instantly, criticism from more than 340 staff and students at MUN that the president’s comments went against the university’s pledge to fight climate change.” Newfoundland is in a dangerous decline and there is open speculation the province may go bankrupt. It should be a time for people to put things into perspective. For the greens, that just doesn’t happen.

Lemmings like to jump off cliffs.

 

[MoontoScott]

Absolutely. There is a really good column by Rex Murphy in the National Post today. The president of Memorial University in Newfoundland, Dr. Vianne Timmons, spoke up for the oil industry saying that it was important to Newfoundland, important to her university, and pointed out that many of their engineers, faculty and students had benefited from the industry. Newfoundland is in big, big trouble. Several offshore oil projects have been shelved, unemployment is high, the population is aging, Covid has hit tourism. And fewer Newfoundlanders are working in Alberta these days. So what she said shouldn’t have been controversial. What do we get instead?? There was “nearly instantly, criticism from more than 340 staff and students at MUN that the president’s comments went against the university’s pledge to fight climate change.” Newfoundland is in a dangerous decline and there is open speculation the province may go bankrupt. It should be a time for people to put things into perspective. For the greens, that just doesn’t happen.

I am hearing that Newfoundland's debt may be cut to "junk" status. You can bet that there will have to be a Federal bailout to save the province but yes the fact that the oil industry has provided critical income for the province doesn't resonate with the greens.

 

[AM]

I am hearing that Newfoundland's debt may be cut to "junk" status. You can bet that there will have to be a Federal bailout to save the province but yes the fact that the oil industry has provided critical income for the province doesn't resonate with the greens.

I don’t think you should call them greens. Much too nice of a connotation for the policy portfolio they seem to prefer.

 

[doulos]

$1.2 billion CO2 pipeline from Industrial Heartland to depleted oilfields in central Alberta comes online

Here is the article from the Sun a few days ago.

If you google "miscible flooding and Co2 injections" you'll find out more about this process. I believe this process is also being used in Saskatchewan's Weyburn oil field.

Thanks. I like these projects as bridges towards better technology. Hopefully one day we can find better uses for sequestered CO2 other than just as a way to get more oil out of the ground (and it's my understanding that there are some ideas around building materials for example), because that seems awfully counterintuitive, but this is better than nothing I guess. I've always maintained that not every technology needs to be a perfect silver bullet. That applies to solar, wind, hydro, and this as well.

 

[AM]

Thanks. I like these projects as bridges towards better technology. Hopefully one day we can find better uses for sequestered CO2 other than just as a way to get more oil out of the ground (and it's my understanding that there are some ideas around building materials for example), because that seems awfully counterintuitive, but this is better than nothing I guess. I've always maintained that not every technology needs to be a perfect silver bullet. That applies to solar, wind, hydro, and this as well.

More oil out of the ground feeds more people. How is that not a good thing?

 

[doulos]

More oil out of the ground feeds more people. How is that not a good thing?

I find it hard to believe this is a question being asked in good faith.

 

[AM]

I find it hard to believe this is a question being asked in good faith.

It’s ironic you should think that and probably a part of the problem. You’ll have to explain to me how feeding people is a bad thing.

 

[doulos]

It’s ironic you should think that and probably a part of the problem.

I'm not sure what exactly you're implying.

It's clearly not as simple as oil feeds people so it must be good. I didn't think that should even need to be said.

 

[Nostradumbass]

More oil out of the ground feeds more people. How is that not a good thing?

Do people just eat the oil or what?

 

[AM]

Do people just eat the oil or what?

I assume if that is your experience with oil, I can see why you would have a negative association.

 

[MoontoScott]

Do people just eat the oil or what?

Oil powers combines and farm equipment around the World. I think that is what is being stated.

 

[doulos]

Oil powers combines and farm equipment around the World. I think that is what is being stated.

Right, with the downsides of that oil being completely ignored.

 

[AM]

I'm not sure what exactly you're implying.

It's clearly not as simple as oil feeds people so it must be good. I didn't think that should even need to be said.

I agree, every economic decision is a trade off. And currently hydrocarbon technology feeds the world. So it has to be said because people like to eat and the technology has been under constant attack.

 

[MoontoScott]

Right, with the downsides of that oil being completely ignored.

So what should we power combines and tractors with? What will move the crops from the farms to the supermarkets.

 

[doulos]

I agree, every economic decision is a trade off. And currently hydrocarbon technology feeds the world. So it has to be said because people like to eat and the technology has been under constant attack.

So this is at least a somewhat more nuanced response and feels a little more in good faith.

And yes fossil fuels are under constant attack. The steam train of destruction headed our way via climate change has made it important to do so. There is even more work to do. Note I am not saying we need to stop using fossil fuels instantly today. Not feasible or possible.

Using carbon recapture to only extract more oil seems awfully shortsighted, but is better than not using carbon recapture at all. It's much worse than using that sequestered carbon for something like construction material, though, as I mentioned, while there is work being done in that area, we are not at the point where that is feasible yet.

 

[doulos]

So what should we power combines and tractors with? What will move the crops from the farms to the supermarkets.

It's a challenge that people are working on for sure. Incremental improvements to battery technology and the greening of our electricity grid make movements towards possible electric tractors a possibility I imagine (though I have done next to no research on that specifically so couldn't tell you where that is at currently). Who knows what else smart people are working on though.

 

[Nostradumbass]

I assume if that is your experience with oil, I can see why you would have a negative association.

I have a feeling I know more about oil and gas than you could ever dream of knowing...

Oil powers combines and farm equipment around the World. I think that is what is being stated.

We should see a farming boom right now then since the market has been severely oversupplied for a while... Making more oil available doesn't change any other constraints in farming, I have a feeling farmers around the world are able to go buy all the oil and gasoline they need and they are more likely constrained by land and funding.

 

[doulos]

We should see a farming boom right now then since the market has been severely oversupplied for a while... Making more oil available doesn't change any other constraints in farming, I have a feeling farmers around the world are able to go buy all the oil and gasoline they need and they are more likely constrained by land and funding.

Also an excellent point.

We need some serious GMO tech to squeeze out what we can from our current land use issues as well.

 

[MoontoScott]

I have a feeling I know more about oil and gas than you could ever dream of knowing...

We should see a farming boom right now then since the market has been severely oversupplied for a while... Making more oil available doesn't change any other constraints in farming, I have a feeling farmers around the world are able to go buy all the oil and gasoline they need and they are more likely constrained by land and funding.

The more serious constraint is the cost of a combine or tractor which is far beyond the means of many farmers around the World. They operate with oxen and buffalo. They'd love to have an oil fired tractor.

The question still remains, how do we power combines, tractors, semi-trucks and trains to get food to market?

 

[doulos]

The more serious constraint is the cost of a combine or tractor which is far beyond the means of many farmers around the World. They operate with oxen and buffalo. They'd love to have an oil fired tractor.

The question still remains, how do we power combines, tractors, semi-trucks and trains to get food to market?

See my post above. Smart people are working on these questions.

 

[Nostradumbass]

The more serious constraint is the cost of a combine or tractor which is far beyond the means of many farmers around the World. They operate with oxen and buffalo. They'd love to have an oil fired tractor.

The question still remains, how do we power combines, tractors, semi-trucks and trains to get food to market?

With oil, but there's going to be more and more oil becoming available through the electrification of cars. I believe some of the majors have forecasted a decrease in overall demand for the long term.

The great advantage of the shale industry is the ability to react quickly to demand. If prices go way up, people drill more wells. Then too many people drill too many wells, it forces prices down, and people drill fewer wells again.

 

[MoontoScott]

See my post above. Smart people are working on these questions.

Well, I'm sure that some smart people are working on all kinds of questions but I can't see that solar powered farm equipment is going to be a reality any time soon.

For someone on the thread with a farming background, what are some of these other solutions? I'll sit back and listen.

 

[doulos]

Well, I'm sure that some smart people are working on all kinds of questions but I can't see that solar powered farm equipment is going to be a reality any time soon.

For someone on the thread with a farming background, what are some of these other solutions? I'll sit back and listen.

I didn't say solar powered. I said electric. Powered by a grid that becomes increasingly green over time. With battery tech that is incrementally improving over time as well.

This is why I have repeatedly said that I don't think we need a perfect solution. We can use incrementally better ideas to work towards weaning ourselves off fossil fuels. Carbon recapture is one potential solution. While I find the idea of using it to just extract even more oil to be rather counterproductive, it's at least incrementally better than not using carbon recapture at all.

This is only barely skimming the surface of this issue and doesn't address issues like subsidies, nuclear technology, etc.

Yup, it's complicated, but we don't need to have perfect solutions to start making changes.

 

[AM]

See my post above. Smart people are working on these questions.

Top people are on it.

 

[MoontoScott]

With oil, but there's going to be more and more oil becoming available through the electrification of cars. I believe some of the majors have forecasted a decrease in overall demand for the long term.

The great advantage of the shale industry is the ability to react quickly to demand. If prices go way up, people drill more wells. Then too many people drill too many wells, it forces prices down, and people drill fewer wells again.

Well, this is an aside but for the most part the U.S. shale fracking scheme is a scam. Mountains of debt, very little free cash flow and banks that are now balking at further financing. Over 300 billion injected into this industry and right now it looks like many investors and bond holders are going to be wiped out. The Canadian industry is still, on the whole, a better economic model.

On a more optimistic note, Suncor is spending $1.4B to upgrade its coking plant and further reduce oil sands emissions. Coverage in the media about Suncor spending huge bucks to improve the environment? Practically zero.

Suncor to spend $1.4B to replace coke-fired boilers with cogeneration units