OT: Planet of the Humans

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Kaotic

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Mar 19, 2017
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Watched this the other day, it’s good to see many of the views I’ve had for years are being brought into the mainstream. Basically points out that most green energy isn’t actually green and when taken into account energy and resources required to manufacture , is actually worse for the environment over the lifespan of the product(solar panels for example) than most forms of fossil fuel derived energy. An electric car for example would take years just to break even on its co2 footprint if it ran off nothing but nuclear energy. (would say solar or wind but again they don’t actually save greenhouse gas emissions as the carbon footprint during manufacture/shipping/installation/etc. Is huge). Electric vehicles running off conventional power grids(coal/natural gas) would never reach emission neutrality. Of course everyone involved in their promotion knows this and don’t care as long as they are getting rich.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hyman
Oct 8, 2017
46,164
56,796
Canuck hunting
I clicked this thinking it was a POTA sequel or prequel. Kind of like what Star Wars does..

I'm thinking this is far less fun and I'll check myself out.

jk aside I agree with your premise. Entirely. Most green energy does not take into account manufacturing, copious use of materials, production of those materials. A lot of products like energy efficient windows/doors are not even longitudinally proven with longterm real world application. sure they work in a lab. 10yrs later is the energy efficient window still being that? Of course what never gets factored in is that swapping out all those windows, doors for the uber green kind is magnanimous waste and the ecological costs involved in that loss never calculated.

I play this game with any neighbor that has spent thousands of bucks swapping out windows.

1) When do you expect to recoup initial investment? This lifetime or the next..

2) What about the windows doors, easements, sills that got ripped out. Where they going?

3) How much did this set you back and why?


I get a lot of silence and jaw dropping. "But the guy told me" Yeah look at your heating bills, energy bills, see if you're really even noticing a saving. heres a thing, the cost of natural gas is REALLY CHEAP here in Alberta. Think about that.

Then I compare bills noting theres negligible if any difference in energy used between all my very well maintained windows, and frames and sills, and their expensive new kind. Which start looking less good after even 10yrs use.

kudos to the attempt, but this may be too much of a topic for the board. Fact of the matter is I don't know any of us are capable of making the calculations involving all the minutiae.

its not new critique though in anycase. This debate has been going on for as long as Green concepts have been around. You are correct in thinking Green is just another lobbying industry.

ps I'm liking your username. heh.

Somebody should be Entropy.
 
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yukoner88

Registered User
Dec 16, 2009
20,069
24,385
Dawson City, YT
Gotta give credit is due, Canadian Bacon is actually a pretty funny film.

I'm curious to check this one out as its interesting to see someone from Michael Moore's side of the aisle, call out the "green" industry for its BS
 
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AM

Registered User
Nov 22, 2004
8,492
2,525
Edmonton
Heather, The ndp candidate came to my door looking for my vote last election. We had a 10 minute discussion which ended when her controller suggested the move along as I wasn’t a good candidate to vote for her. She wanted to know how to make a market for green energy. I suggested she market like a Harley. Rich people will buy anything, governments shouldn’t be bank rolling the business.
 
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Fixed to Ruin

Come wit it now!
Feb 28, 2007
23,894
26,159
Grande Prairie, AB
Watched this the other day, it’s good to see many of the views I’ve had for years are being brought into the mainstream. Basically points out that most green energy isn’t actually green and when taken into account energy and resources required to manufacture , is actually worse for the environment over the lifespan of the product(solar panels for example) than most forms of fossil fuel derived energy. An electric car for example would take years just to break even on its co2 footprint if it ran off nothing but nuclear energy. (would say solar or wind but again they don’t actually save greenhouse gas emissions as the carbon footprint during manufacture/shipping/installation/etc. Is huge). Electric vehicles running off conventional power grids(coal/natural gas) would never reach emission neutrality. Of course everyone involved in their promotion knows this and don’t care as long as they are getting rich.

I watched it last night. Thought it was well done even though i didn't agree with all the statements or claims he made in the film.

For example, he called out Weyerhauser for using biomass power plants. If I am not mistaken most sawmills/paper & wood products manufacturing have biomass power plants on site to burn waste products ( sawdust, wood scraps, ect) to produce power instead of hauling it to a landfill. ( the correct application for biomass plants) Not clear cutting a section of forest to generate power.
 
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JayE

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Sep 24, 2016
1,157
572
It's been interesting to see the reaction to this doc as it's largely based off a book called Green Illusions by a guy named Ozzie Zehner (who was instrumental in the making of the doc and is featured in it several times). The majority of what Zehner argues shouldn't be particularly controversial. We should know about the considerable limitations of so-called green energy, EVs, and the blind faith in innovation and the market to allow us to consume our way out of a climate catastrophe. People who have been paying attention know that closing our eyes and hoping for the market and technology to solve things is a fool's errand.

Zehner's solutions, even if they aren't particularly fleshed out or perhaps all that convincing, call for a radical restructuring of the economy (so as to not make it completely reliant on never-ending growth fueled by ever-increasing consumption), which will obviously entail immense social re-structuring. There are also vague calls for population control, which is obviously going to be massively controversial for a variety of reasons (and an extremely dangerous road to go down). The overall thesis is that things are even more dire than we think and that solutions will require a complete rethinking of society. It's a pretty bleak, but likely realistic thesis. I'm a little surprised at the popularity of the doc in certain circles considering its content and implications, but something tells me people haven't really read between the lines and instead only see the lampooning of a certain strand of green activist (which, regardless of their intentions, they deserve).

The doc itself is a bit irritating in how it was made, but that's just me having issues with Moore's style.
 

MoontoScott

Registered User
Jun 2, 2012
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I loved the film even though like all Moore creations (he was just producer here) it likes to skim over some of the facts.

What I really like are the howls of protest coming from the left including Ms. Klein. She is demanding an apology. Say what? You don't like a taste of your own medicine when it comes to stretching the truth? She's been telling half truths about the oil industry for the last 2 decades and nobody has dared to take her on and demand an apology--maybe that will now change.

Something the film doesn't mention is that so called "Big Oil" has been investing heavily in renewables for the last 5 years so really the division between us/them is getting more nebulous all the time. In particular, Shell is now establishing all kinds of wind farms and renewable utilities throughout Europe, particularly Britain.

Also love that they gave Al Gore a little shot. What a phony. He sold all of his business interests to Qatari oil money but then rails on and on about his hatred for the fossil fuel industry. He is so slimy and bloated--when asked about this "inconvenient truth" his answer has always been "I get it-I just don't agree with it." Yes, I'm sure he doesn't. Meantime he is now a mega millionaire thanks to the sale of his business interests to mid-East oil while oil patch workers in North America are wondering where their next meal is coming from.

Perhaps at last the public will start asking some hard questions about costs and who is really benefitting from the alternate fuel craze. I'm not saying that alt fuels don't have a place because they do but it would be nice if they stepped up to answer some queries instead of always pointing at Alberta with their witch hunt agenda. Meantime, Davey Suzuki has an estimated net wealth of $25 million-- not to mention 5 different properties--another inconvenient truth.
 
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shoop

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Jul 6, 2008
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BudBundy

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May 16, 2005
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I loved the film even though like all Moore creations (he was just producer here) it likes to skim over some of the facts.

What I really like are the howls of protest coming from the left including Ms. Klein. She is demanding an apology. Say what? You don't like a taste of your own medicine when it comes to stretching the truth? She's been telling half truths about the oil industry for the last 2 decades and nobody has dared to take her on and demand an apology--maybe that will now change.

Something the film doesn't mention is that so called "Big Oil" has been investing heavily in renewables for the last 5 years so really the division between us/them is getting more nebulous all the time. In particular, Shell is now establishing all kinds of wind farms and renewable utilities throughout Europe, particularly Britain.

Also love that they gave Al Gore a little shot. What a phony. He sold all of his business interests to Qatari oil money but then rails on and on about his hatred for the fossil fuel industry. He is so slimy and bloated--when asked about this "inconvenient truth" his answer has always been "I get it-I just don't agree with it." Yes, I'm sure he doesn't. Meantime he is now a mega millionaire thanks to the sale of his business interests to mid-East oil while oil patch workers in North America are wondering where their next meal is coming from.

Perhaps at last the public will start asking some hard questions about costs and who is really benefitting from the alternate fuel craze. I'm not saying that alt fuels don't have a place because they do but it would be nice if they stepped up to answer some queries instead of always pointing at Alberta with their witch hunt agenda. Meantime, Davey Suzuki has an estimated net wealth of $25 million-- not to mention 5 different properties--another inconvenient truth.
Naomi Klein can go get stuffed. I’m still waiting for her to admit that her favourite socialist paradise, Venezuela, that she was holding up as a model for the world to follow, was doomed to fail spectacularly like every socialist paradise always has and always will fail. She, and the modern Marxist clowns like her, are just the worst.
 

Frank the Tank

The Godfather
Aug 15, 2005
15,916
12,588
Chicago, IL
Watched this the other day, it’s good to see many of the views I’ve had for years are being brought into the mainstream. Basically points out that most green energy isn’t actually green and when taken into account energy and resources required to manufacture , is actually worse for the environment over the lifespan of the product(solar panels for example) than most forms of fossil fuel derived energy. An electric car for example would take years just to break even on its co2 footprint if it ran off nothing but nuclear energy. (would say solar or wind but again they don’t actually save greenhouse gas emissions as the carbon footprint during manufacture/shipping/installation/etc. Is huge). Electric vehicles running off conventional power grids(coal/natural gas) would never reach emission neutrality. Of course everyone involved in their promotion knows this and don’t care as long as they are getting rich.

Please tell me more about this.
 

MoontoScott

Registered User
Jun 2, 2012
7,845
8,651

Thanks for the link to the SLAPP Suit article, one of the best pieces I have ever seen on the subject.

Its interesting that the new apostate on the block, Michael Moore-dedicated leftist, has done more for the oil industry than all the "Alberta war room" objectives could have ever accomplished and at no cost to the Alberta Tax payer.

As much as I love this film, I think its all moot point because from here on in its going to be a question of survival and finding a job- whether its working in the oil patch or shovelling turkey sh*t into a biomass plant.

When people are desperate to feed their families they no longer have time to listen to all these Marie Antoinette soul mates. Klein, Berman, Fonda, Hannah, etc. are no longer on the public's radar. The only thing that matters now is food on the table and providing for your children.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
Anyone with two eyes, two ears, and half a brain could see that the whole green energy movement was little more than a wealth redistribution scheme, largely co-opted by Big Oil and the usual cast of ultra-wealthy crony capitalists and globalists. Of course, we were all called conspiracy theorists, climate change "deniers", you name it, by the alarmists. The far left immediately turning on "one of their own" in Moore has been amusing.
 

Nostradumbass

Divinity
Jan 1, 2007
5,002
4,606
I watched it last night. Thought it was well done even though i didn't agree with all the statements or claims he made in the film.

For example, he called out Weyerhauser for using biomass power plants. If I am not mistaken most sawmills/paper & wood products manufacturing have biomass power plants on site to burn waste products ( sawdust, wood scraps, ect) to produce power instead of hauling it to a landfill. ( the correct application for biomass plants) Not clear cutting a section of forest to generate power.
The shit they actually burn makes the oil sands look clean in comparison.

is this on netflix?
Youtube
 
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oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
23,413
18,580
It's a pretty cynical view of almost every subject explored. I don't take everything in it as truth. Lots of the info is very dated as well. Like I said, this guy was probably sitting on this thing for nearly a decade looking for someone to distribute it :)

I liked that it does touch on some points that are still lost on many. The amount of environmental destruction, polluting and human suffering going on completely out of everyone's sight that really has to happen to maintain the way of life we enjoy in the western world and to enable cost effective production of these "green" technologies. How many of these solutions sold as super green are not as perfect as many believe. How companies are discovering new ways all the time now for how they can hide behind a green facade to fool the masses, this applies to fossil fuel companies as well of course, although it's far harder for them to fool the well informed. How extremely obvious it has become that there is lots of free government money to be made from trying to sway the green movement to influence governments to hit arbitrary numerical targets where they then need to find things to throw money at to get there the quickest. I'd be pretty darn disappointed in greedy people if they weren't deep into that cycle of pushing environmental groups in sync with lobbying governments.

Still, I think it oversells the idea a bit that there is no difference between using new renewable tech and things like coal. There is absolutely a measurable improvement in overall pollution and emissions making that transition. The problem is far more complicated than just saying it's just all the same. Just for example, the more renewable sources you try to replace reliable consistent power source with, the more costs ramp up, because you need backups on standby. Everything looks fine and dandy when you try to replace 10-20% or so of your generation with an intermittent source, you can make pretty good guesses of what kinds of backup you need to keep things pretty level. Once you start trying to cut into replacing consistent sources more with intermittent ones, you really start having to throw money at the problem. The amount of backup power plants you need to subsidize to make it worthwhile for them to exist and have workers starts to skyrocket. Or you need to create insanely huge fields of battery farms, that turn into a money pit themselves as massive amounts of batteries fail and need maintenance and replacement.

These problems are not as simple to solve as many believe, although, governments just throwing money at the problems can still make the transition move. Just don't expect everyone to do it until there are some more major technological leaps. Even China is now starting to pull money away from renewables. The money train has stopped running for them to keep throwing money at solar subsidies and they are moving back to more coal. If they can't do it with their cheap labour and access to all needed raw materials right at home, along with stolen IP to make whatever they want, it's hard to see what hope others have.
 

Fixed to Ruin

Come wit it now!
Feb 28, 2007
23,894
26,159
Grande Prairie, AB
They burn railroad ties, discarded chemicals, rubber chips (exactly like the video) to keep the temperature high. They'll burn pretty much anything they can instead of paying to discard it.

Ok i see. I thought they generated so much in waste products. (Woodchips, sawdust, ect) to keep the plant going without any of that other stuff.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

BudBundy

Registered User
May 16, 2005
5,802
7,603
I sincerely hope this gives nuclear energy a shot in the arm. I’ve always used nuclear energy as a litmus test for how knowledgeable an “environmentalist” I meet or read about is. If they are positive about nuclear energy, they are at least somewhat rational. If they immediately dismiss it, then they are just adherents to the new Green Religion.
 

Frank the Tank

The Godfather
Aug 15, 2005
15,916
12,588
Chicago, IL
I sincerely hope this gives nuclear energy a shot in the arm. I’ve always used nuclear energy as a litmus test for how knowledgeable an “environmentalist” I meet or read about is. If they are positive about nuclear energy, they are at least somewhat rational. If they immediately dismiss it, then they are just adherents to the new Green Religion.

Nuclear has its place. Obviously start-up costs and NIMBYism (both in plant and waste repository locations) remain significant barriers. Nonetheless, it represents a great option for certain locations.

I sincerely hope this has people thinking about cradle to grave costs for all energy sources.
 

alphahelix

Registered User
Feb 15, 2007
7,054
2,847
Naomi Klein can go get stuffed. I’m still waiting for her to admit that her favourite socialist paradise, Venezuela, that she was holding up as a model for the world to follow, was doomed to fail spectacularly like every socialist paradise always has and always will fail. She, and the modern Marxist clowns like her, are just the worst.

The Venezuela issue really has nothing to do with socialism. This is about authoritarianism, which is in this and most cases perpetuated by the elites/aristocracy. Sometimes there are ideologically socialist revolutions but typically the militarists or the new class of political elites simply seize power. The true enemy, here, as in almost all cases, is authoritarianism. That is exactly why the myth of Venezuela as a socialist archetype is being heavily perpetuated by the proto-authoritarian and bootlicker contingent in North America right now. As always, we are redirected to fight amongst ourselves.
 
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alphahelix

Registered User
Feb 15, 2007
7,054
2,847
Nuclear has its place. Obviously start-up costs and NIMBYism (both in plant and waste repository locations) remain significant barriers. Nonetheless, it represents a great option for certain locations.

I sincerely hope this has people thinking about cradle to grave costs for all energy sources.

If your backyard is an ocean, volcano, or seismic fault, then nimby makes sense. I think we can find plenty of desolate and relatively safe locations on our continent...like saskatchewan ;) but seriously, the anti nuclear stuff needs to end- careful nuclear is where we should be headed.
 

9GWG9

C=NV
Jul 13, 2007
1,559
493
Ok i see. I thought they generated so much in waste products. (Woodchips, sawdust, ect) to keep the plant going without any of that other stuff.

Thanks for the clarification.
Using byproducts as fuel is the perfect way to generate energy onsite to operate the mills.

They have been and continue to build biomass plants burning trees that have actually been harvested to do so. I cannot grasp the logic in this.

They should have hammered Tesla hard. Think about the energy and special materials used to build them.
 

MoontoScott

Registered User
Jun 2, 2012
7,845
8,651
I sincerely hope this gives nuclear energy a shot in the arm. I’ve always used nuclear energy as a litmus test for how knowledgeable an “environmentalist” I meet or read about is. If they are positive about nuclear energy, they are at least somewhat rational. If they immediately dismiss it, then they are just adherents to the new Green Religion.

When I tell people that most of the electricity used in Ontario (about 60%) comes from nuclear sources they explode with indignation and tell me that it just isn't true. Except that it is true and in many ways its one of the safest and most reliable sources of energy in the World. The Candu reactor- also made in Canada is considered to be one of the safest reactor designs ever built and implemented.

Hydro energy supplies the majority of Quebec's electricity needs but again this fact is virtually unknown to the Canadian public.

And the beauty of it is that both these sources have been around for decades.
 
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