GWT: PL Matchweek 2

AB13

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How the hell are Arsenal, Everton, Villa and Wolves undoubtedly better on paper?

West Ham has one of the most well balanced starting 11's in the league, they're depth isn't good but starting 11 wise I see a top 6 club. The knocks on the starting 11 are the older CB's and keeper but they are all proven players in this league and that experience is big. Full backs are really good at both ends, wingers are a threat, AM can pull strings and is a goal threat, forward is a bull who holds up play well and can score. I also think they may have a top 3 CM duo in the league. Not many if any team can compete with both Rice and Soucek. Again the starting 11 is good and they all work well together so if they stay healthy top 6 again. If they can get Lingard back would be huge and another attacking threat would help, the depth is the only issue but a lot of teams they're competing with have quality depth issues too.
I believe Arsenal have a team capable of contending for the title under the right manager so lets not get into that. Same thing goes for Spurs really. Arsenal and Spurs are basically as good as Chelsea and United on paper.

I believe Rice, Benrahma/Bowen and Soucek start for Villa and Everton but not anyone else. 5-6 guys start for Wolves. Moyes, the balance of profiles in attack and the dominance of Rice and Soucek are good enough to make the team a top 6 condender though.
 
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AB13

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He's developing into a player who I think could start for any of the top six clubs and I don't think that's a hot take IMHO.
Yeah maybe. He could potentially start over Bergwijn/Moura and Mount/Pulisic for Chelsea or Spurs I guess.
 
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AB13

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I doubt that.
I don’t want to have this debate for the 678th time but I don’t agree with these narratives about the squad. What I will say is that I think this Arsenal team challenges for the title under a good manager that plays the right players in a functional system.

White, Saliba (if we used him) and Gabriel as CB options is great. Not really as elite as what United or Liverpool have but on the same level as Chelsea. Tierney is just as good as the left backs the title contenders have. We need a right back.

Partey and Xhaka are very good, both of them. Balanced as well. Lots of power, defensive responsibility and progressive passing in that midfield. I think our CM options are on par with Liverpool, Chelsea and United (now that Pogba is looking like he will play further forward).

In the frontline we have world class, elite superstar Aubameyang who has had one non world class season in the last 6. That one was almost solely on an Arteta system that doesn’t create chances. This Arsenal team created 81 big chances in 17/18 under Wenger, and 74 under Emery in 18/19. but only 45 last season because we completely avoid the center of the pitch. Aubameyang looked like one of the best strikers in the world until last season when he played under Arteta for a full year while having to deal with Malaria and personal tragedy.

Pepe and Lacazette can still be world class. Pepe hits Sadio Mane level numbers as long as he isn’t used as a touchline winger in a stale JDP system (in fact he had better numbers than Mane last season but that was a fluke down year for Mane). He had 22 goals and 11 assists when used as an inverted winger as recently as the 2019 Ligue 1 season. ESR, Martinelli and Saka are absolutely amazing. Unreal players. Ødegaard is also very talented and can hit very high levels under a good coach.

I truly believe sacking Arteta and bringing in an elite manager, like maybe Conte, would have us challenging for the title and end the ”squad needs to go” narrative.

The same thing goes for your squad who is good enough for a title challenge. It’s filled with talent that can be world class under a good manager but isn’t performing like that. Alli, Ndombele, Reguilon can all be among the best in the world in their positions and that isn’t exagerrating. People underestimate just how quickly and dramatically sacking a bad manager for a good one changes things. Tuchel took over a struggling, underperformikg Chelsea team in 10th after 19 games and won them a Champions League while finishing fourth. Conte won the league with a Chelsea team that finished 10th the season before not too long ago. Moyes turned West Ham from a relegation level team to a solid european level side in a year and a half.
 
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Paulie Gualtieri

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May 18, 2016
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Let's just say that I disagree.

The only way I could see Spurs challenging for a title with their current squad is if Son and Kane had monster seasons. Even better than their last one. And I don't think Arsenal have any players of that caliber.

As for Ndombele, he is to blame, not the managers.
 
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Havre

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I guess it depends on how much uncertainty you allow for. Is that Arsenal squad necessarily that much worse than what people thought about Leicester and Spurs before they ended up winning (and 2nd for Spurs)?

Hard to evaluate if you ask me.

What I don't necessarily agree with AB13 on is the importance of the manager. I don't think there is much to suggest Ranieri is a genius of a manager. I don't think Pochettino is either. Or these days someone like Moyes. So it is also a question of things "clicking" in my opinion. Right now for Arsenal things seem to be a bit 2+2=3. If that is the manager, the wrong group of player, lack of individual quality or what - I don't know. Probably a combination.

Was United's squad that great last year? Is OGS that good? Still can't really argue against where they ended up - even if there is obviously some randomness at play there.
 

HoseEmDown

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I don’t want to have this debate for the 678th time but I don’t agree with these narratives about the squad. What I will say is that I think this Arsenal team challenges for the title under a good manager that plays the right players in a functional system.

White, Saliba (if we used him) and Gabriel as CB options is great. Not really as elite as what United or Liverpool have but on the same level as Chelsea. Tierney is just as good as the left backs the title contenders have. We need a right back.

Partey and Xhaka are very good, both of them. Balanced as well. Lots of power, defensive responsibility and progressive passing in that midfield. I think our CM options are on par with Liverpool, Chelsea and United (now that Pogba is looking like he will play further forward).

In the frontline we have world class, elite superstar Aubameyang who has had one non world class season in the last 6. That one was almost solely on an Arteta system that doesn’t create chances. This Arsenal team created 81 big chances in 17/18 under Wenger, and 74 under Emery in 18/19. but only 45 last season because we completely avoid the center of the pitch. Aubameyang looked like one of the best strikers in the world until last season when he played under Arteta for a full year while having to deal with Malaria and personal tragedy.

Pepe and Lacazette can still be world class. Pepe hits Sadio Mane level numbers as long as he isn’t used as a touchline winger in a stale JDP system (in fact he had better numbers than Mane last season but that was a fluke down year for Mane). He had 22 goals and 11 assists when used as an inverted winger as recently as the 2019 Ligue 1 season. ESR, Martinelli and Saka are absolutely amazing. Unreal players. Ødegaard is also very talented and can hit very high levels under a good coach.

I truly believe sacking Arteta and bringing in an elite manager, like maybe Conte, would have us challenging for the title and end the ”squad needs to go” narrative.

The same thing goes for your squad who is good enough for a title challenge. It’s filled with talent that can be world class under a good manager but isn’t performing like that. Alli, Ndombele, Reguilon can all be among the best in the world in their positions and that isn’t exagerrating. People underestimate just how quickly and dramatically sacking a bad manager for a good one changes things. Tuchel took over a struggling, underperformikg Chelsea team in 10th after 19 games and won them a Champions League while finishing fourth. Conte won the league with a Chelsea team that finished 10th the season before not too long ago. Moyes turned West Ham from a relegation level team to a solid european level side in a year and a half.

Here's what I would have as a combined starting 11 between Arsenal and West Ham.

Leno
Coufal - Dawson - Gabriel - Tierney
Soucek - Rice
Bowen - Smith-Rowe - Benrahma
Aubameyang

It's 6 to 5 West Ham for me. I know you'll say Pepe is world class and better than Bowen. On skill sure but I like Bowens overall game more than Pepe's goal scoring ability. He's better tracking back and setting up goals. Also up front if Antonio is going to play like he has the past year plus and Aubameyang is going to play like he has in that same time I'd take Antonio over world class Aubameyang.

Arsenal doesn't have a title threat side even if they had Klopp or Guardiola at the helm. They have an average side with some guys with good potential but haven't proven anything yet. The ones who are proven like Aubameyang and Lacazette are also now over 30, showing signs of slowing down and possibly not even being there anymore soon. So unless all of your prospects hit their potential this season you're going to be a mid table club for awhile.
 

AB13

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Here's what I would have as a combined starting 11 between Arsenal and West Ham.

Leno
Coufal - Dawson - Gabriel - Tierney
Soucek - Rice
Bowen - Smith-Rowe - Benrahma
Aubameyang

It's 6 to 5 West Ham for me. I know you'll say Pepe is world class and better than Bowen. On skill sure but I like Bowens overall game more than Pepe's goal scoring ability. He's better tracking back and setting up goals. Also up front if Antonio is going to play like he has the past year plus and Aubameyang is going to play like he has in that same time I'd take Antonio over world class Aubameyang.

Arsenal doesn't have a title threat side even if they had Klopp or Guardiola at the helm. They have an average side with some guys with good potential but haven't proven anything yet. The ones who are proven like Aubameyang and Lacazette are also now over 30, showing signs of slowing down and possibly not even being there anymore soon. So unless all of your prospects hit their potential this season you're going to be a mid table club for awhile.
We have had this debate a million times so there is no need to have it again. Dawson? Now I know you are taking the piss. He's genuinely one of the worst starters in the league in his position. A relegation level player. Benrahma over England first choice international Bukayo Saka? We could do two teams and I only think four West Ham players make it to a 20 man match day squad.

Leno

Coufal - White - Gabriel - Tierney

Partey - Rice

Pepe - Smith Rowe - Saka

Aubameyang

Second team

Ramsdale
Bellerin
Holding
Soucek
Xhaka
Benrahma
Odegaard
Martinelli
Lacazette


I think Arsenal are in a similar position to Chelsea under Lampard last season but with a much worse manager. High end talent in many areas but with a few very unreliable players (unlike Chelsea). I guess we will see if Arsenal replace Arteta with a proven high end manager.
 
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AB13

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Let's just say that I disagree.

The only way I could see Spurs challenging for a title with their current squad is if Son and Kane had monster seasons. Even better than their last one. And I don't think Arsenal have any players of that caliber.

As for Ndombele, he is to blame, not the managers.
I think Pepe and Aubameyang are basically as good as Son and Kane under the right manager (Aubameyang being slightly worse than Kane I guess). Saka isn't that far off Son on his day but needs to be more consistent in the final third. In the right system I genuinely think he can be as good as Son already.

As for the squad being title challenger quality, I think Spurs have great players in many areas, the squad really only has center back and right back as a glaring weakness. Do you really think Chelsea and United are much better on paper? I really don't think so. Spurs have some real weaknesses in their 11 but 4-6 Spurs players would make a combined 11 for with those teams.

Dysfunctional management/tactics have clouded peoples judgement on the Arsenal and Spurs teams.
 
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Havre

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I was thinking Soucek might make the bench at least for the second team? ;)
 

Jersey Fresh

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Lol I was almost (but not) following along until I got to that second team.

Ogbonna is also a better player, today, than either White or Gabriel.

I don't know where the Partey worship comes from either, if I'm honest. Haven't seen much from him that deserves the hype.
 

Havre

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Ogbonna reminds me a bit of Evans. So underrated. I guess Evans was finally recognized as a good player, but I don't think Ogbonna has got than recognition yet.
 

AB13

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I was thinking Soucek might make the bench at least for the second team? ;)
Forgot to include him for some stupid reason. He makes the bench, and the starting 11 in a few games depending on opposition.
Lol I was almost (but not) following along until I got to that second team.

Ogbonna is also a better player, today, than either White or Gabriel.

I don't know where the Partey worship comes from either, if I'm honest. Haven't seen much from him that deserves the hype.
Partey is world class. Press resistant, physically dominant, smart, a great defender and with a good range of passing. He's a top 4 holding midfielder in the league for me (after Rice, Fabinho and Kante). Overrated by Arsenal fans though.

Ogbonna is actually talented and a bit underrated but he's not anywhere near White or Gabriel. He isn't even as good as Holding.
 

HoseEmDown

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We have had this debate a million times so there is no need to have it again. Dawson? Now I know you are taking the piss. He's a relegation level player. Benrahma over England first choice international Bukayo Saka? We could do two teams and I only think three or four West Ham players make it to a 20 man match day squad.

Leno

Coufal - White - Gabriel - Tierney

Partey - Rice

Pepe - Smith Rowe - Saka

Aubameyang

Second team

Ramsdale
Bellerin
Holding
Lokonga
Xhaka
Benrahma
Odegaard
Martinelli
Lacazette/Antonio


I think Arsenal are in a similar position to Chelsea under Lampard last season but with a much worse manager. High end talent in many areas but with a few very unreliable players (unlike Chelsea). I guess we will see if Arsenal replace Arteta with a proven high end manager.

Dawson played 22 games for West Ham last season and had 3 goals while helping them finish 6th. White played 36 games with Brighton with 0 goals while they finished 16th. White is potential, Dawson is a proven hand. If I needed someone for one game right now I'm picking Dawson. What does Saka being England first choice have to do with anything? Once Benrahma got integrated into the side and adjusted to the league he was one of the most dangerous players the end of the season. He's also off to a hot start this year. Saka is good and will get better but currently Benrahma is playing at a higher level.

I also know you're a massive troll when your bench is Arsenal trash and not Creswell, better than Bellerin or Holding, Soucek, way better than Partey and Xhaka, Bowen, better than Martinelli on par with Pepe, Fornals, better than Odegaard on par with Smith-Rowe.

Arsenal is closer to Everton than Chelsea. It's a club which you think can crack into the top 6 with one or two signings and the right manager but just doesn't happen. They're going to be hanging with Everton a lot in the mid table for awhile, even with a roster full of world class players as you say.
 
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robertmac43

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Dawson played 22 games for West Ham last season and had 3 goals while helping them finish 6th. White played 36 games with Brighton with 0 goals while they finished 16th.
Umm, when did we rate individual center backs on scoring and their team's league position?:laugh: All I took from this is that the CB who is under 6ft tall scored less from set-pieces; and Brighton, the club that had a record signing of 24 million and only 4 ever signings over 20 million going into last year finished lower in the league. Really that 16th place finish is rather cruel-looking, Brighton played much better football than their place in the league shows. A big part of that success is Ben White. Sure Dawson is better in the air, but White is far better on the ball, progresses the ball more, had more touches, covers more ground, gets higher up the pitch, provides pressure, and actually creates shooting actions. He was a focal point in possession in his first year in the prem and thrived. Dawson is tall and brutish, he wins some duels...

White is far better at actually playing football....
 
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Jersey Fresh

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Dawson had a hot year last year after being terrible for Watford, and I'd never in a million years expect him to repeat that this season. He's a serviceable player, but shouldn't be a starter. Which is why West Ham needs a CB, because Diop isn't that guy either.
 

HoseEmDown

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Umm, when did we rate individual center backs on scoring and their team's league position?:laugh: All I took from this is that the CB who is under 6ft tall scored less from set-pieces; and Brighton, the club that had a record signing of 24 million and only 4 ever signings over 20 million going into last year finished lower in the league. Really that 16th place finish is rather cruel-looking, Brighton played much better football than their place in the league shows. A big part of that success is Ben White. Sure Dawson is better in the air, but White is far better on the ball, progresses the ball more, had more touches, covers more ground, gets higher up the pitch, provides pressure, and actually creates shooting actions. He was a focal point in possession in his first year in the prem and thrived. Dawson is tall and brutish, he wins some duels...

White is far better at actually playing football....

So if White is so good on the ball, progresses the ball better, gets more touches, covers more ground, gets higher up the pitch and creates why didn't he have a single goal or assist from Brighton last year? Dunk had 5 goals, Burn and Webster had 1.

White is a perfect Arsenal player because he goes along with the rest of the group who have a lot of individual skill but make nothing of it. Dawson may suck as a footballer but if I need someone to make a big clearance or score on a late corner I'm picking him over White. White needs to show more than just good skills on the ball, he needs to put in the tackles, win the duels and score the occasional goal.
 

robertmac43

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So if White is so good on the ball, progresses the ball better, gets more touches, covers more ground, gets higher up the pitch and creates why didn't he have a single goal or assist from Brighton last year? Dunk had 5 goals, Burn and Webster had 1.
Because most of White's progression comes in the first phase of the build-up and then again in maintaining possession and finding good passing outlets.

When it comes to the goals, it's a very easy and obvious explanation..... Ben White is often used as a 'pick' for other runners on set pieces or makes runs away from the goal to create space for the main aerial threats. Those threats are Dunk, Webster, and Burn, hence why they are the main targets when Gross and Trossard swing in a ball. Also, both Webster and Burn's goals came against 10 men City in a push to tie/win the game. Burn is an LWB so was pressing higher up and Webster scored while still up from a set-piece. That whole time White was a big part in maintaining possession and ensuring Brighton was not beaten on the counter.

Again, it isn't his job to score...

White is a perfect Arsenal player because he goes along with the rest of the group who have a lot of individual skill but make nothing of it. Dawson may suck as a footballer but if I need someone to make a big clearance or score on a late corner I'm picking him over White. White needs to show more than just good skills on the ball, he needs to put in the tackles, win the duels and score the occasional goal.
Dawson was mediocre-bad on West Brom and Watford. He had a good year on a West Ham team that took a stride forward.... That's it with Dawson..

White is perfectly fine defensively. With Brighton, he didn't duel much because 6'6 Burn, 6'4 Dunk, and 6'3 Webster were used to defend aerial attacks. He had the tough task of reading the oncoming attack and getting into positions to shut down runners and intercept the ball. He recognizes space well and always gets himself into the right positions. A CB doesn't need to throw himself into tackles when he is getting into the right spot to break up play.
 

Havre

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I guess you couldn't when people were saying Leicester could win the league either....
 

Chimaera

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That Leicester squad had more talent than Arsenal has. It's also one of the most shocking events in all sports.

Arsenal is presently not on a course for that.

But, sure, maybe you can say Arsenal is possible to pull a Leicester. I might also grow four inches taller and win the lottery, but the chances of that are basically zero.
 

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