GWT: PL Matchweek 2

[Paulie Gualtieri]

All the expected top clubs during Leicester's season were much weaker than the top clubs now.

 

[Havre]

That Leicester squad had more talent than Arsenal has. It's also one of the most shocking events in all sports.

Arsenal is presently not on a course for that.

But, sure, maybe you can say Arsenal is possible to pull a Leicester. I might also grow four inches taller and win the lottery, but the chances of that are basically zero.

I honestly do not think anyone thought that at the time.

Doesn't have to be Leicester of course. Spurs were somewhat in the title fight. Not sure if the general consensus was that the Spurs squad was much better than Arsenal got now.

And if West Ham could go from fighting to survive to 65 points and almost qualifying for the CL - I'm not sure if it is that far fetched with Arsenal. Just that for whatever reason players who are considered good or even great outside Arsenal rarely develop much when they get to that part of North London these days.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I guess you couldn't when people were saying Leicester could win the league either....

I mean Leicester winning the league is arguably the biggest fluke in sports history.

 

[Jussi]

I mean Leicester winning the league is arguably the biggest fluke in sports history.

Finland winning the IIHF Worlds in 2019 with no NHL players while beating three teams, stacked with NHL players, in a row in the playoff stage is kinda close.

 

[Havre]

I don't think Arsenal could win the league with this squad, but it wasn't that long ago players like Pepe and Aubameyang were considered top class. Let's assume you had those two performing at their best in this Arsenal team. They aren't winning the league still, but if you are getting 40 goals from those two instead of 20 you are starting to go somewhere.

I don't think AB13 is able to evaluate Arsenal objectively, but I also think there is a bit of an overreaction on this board towards AB13 and his opinions. Easy to ridicule both him and Arsenal because usually most just agree - and often join in. Not going to say that was what happened in this case though.

I agree with AB13 than I think Arsenal got more individual quality than they are getting credit for. Not sure if it is as easy as to get rid of Arteta, but something is clearly, in my opinion, wrong at that club - which means they are getting into a 2+2=3 situation.

 

[Havre]

I mean Leicester winning the league is arguably the biggest fluke in sports history.

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the word "fluke". I had to look it up - to me that is "accidental luck", but I see it can also be "a stroke of luck". The last I would agree to. Leicester did have the stars to align a bit, but I wouldn't accept it was "accidental luck".

Greece and that Australian speed skater - might be considered flukes in my world. History has shown that Leicester had a lot of good players. Just that we, the pundits etc. didn't know how good Kante, Mahrez, Vardy etc. were before after the fact.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I don't think Arsenal could win the league with this squad, but it wasn't that long ago players like Pepe and Aubameyang were considered top class. Let's assume you had those two performing at their best in this Arsenal team. They aren't winning the league still, but if you are getting 40 goals from those two instead of 20 you are starting to go somewhere.

I don't think AB13 is able to evaluate Arsenal objectively, but I also think there is a bit of an overreaction on this board towards AB13 and his opinions. Easy to ridicule both him and Arsenal because usually most just agree - and often join in. Not going to say that was what happened in this case though.

I agree with AB13 than I think Arsenal got more individual quality than they are getting credit for. Not sure if it is as easy as to get rid of Arteta, but something is clearly, in my opinion, wrong at that club - which means they are getting into a 2+2=3 situation.

Auba-Lacazette-Saka

ESR​

Partey-Xhaka​

Tierney-White-Gabriel-Bellerin

Leno
​

If you have Laca and Auba at their best that team is about as good as Spurs. If their recent form is normal I don't really see what makes them better than a team like WHU or Everton. The quality just isn't that great outside of Auba and he's someone who will age like milk. ESR looks good but relying on a 21 year old who has 20 games under his belt to make the offense tick is a recipe for disaster. They have better depth than the aforementioned clubs though which helps a bit but overall I just don't see much more than a team who will be in a dogfight for 6th with the likes of Everton, WHU, Villa, Wolves, etc.

 

[Jack Straw]

Finland winning the IIHF Worlds in 2019 with no NHL players while beating three teams, stacked with NHL players, in a row in the playoff stage is kinda close.

1980 US men's hockey team, basically a team of college kids, beating the Soviets. Impossibility, yet it happened.

 

[Jussi]

1980 US men's hockey team, basically a team of college kids, beating the Soviets. Impossibility, yet it happened.

That's one game. We're talking about doing it 3 games in a row.

 

[Jack Straw]

That's one game. We're talking about doing it 3 games in a row.

Well, they followed that up with a win over heavily favored Finland to win the gold. In the group stage they also beat the Czechs and tied Sweden. This was as big an upset as I've ever seen in any sport. The US was nowhere near as strong then as we are today.

 

[AB13]

Auba-Lacazette-Saka

ESR​

Partey-Xhaka​

Tierney-White-Gabriel-Bellerin

Leno
​

If you have Laca and Auba at their best that team is about as good as Spurs. If their recent form is normal I don't really see what makes them better than a team like WHU or Everton. The quality just isn't that great outside of Auba and he's someone who will age like milk. ESR looks good but relying on a 21 year old who has 20 games under his belt to make the offense tick is a recipe for disaster. They have better depth than the aforementioned clubs though which helps a bit but overall I just don't see much more than a team who will be in a dogfight for 6th with the likes of Everton, WHU, Villa, Wolves, etc.

You don’t need to rely on Saka and ESR. Pepe and Ødegaard would start for Spurs, pretty undoubdedly as well. I think even you would agree with that. Look back at how highly sought after Ødegaard and Pepe were at Sociedad and Lille just 1 and 2 years ago respectively. They were wanted by almost every team in the world. They are top top talents.

 

[Jussi]

Well, they followed that up with a win over heavily favored Finland to win the gold. In the group stage they also beat the Czechs and tied Sweden. This was as big an upset as I've ever seen in any sport. The US was nowhere near as strong then as we are today.

Hah!

 

[AB13]

People don't know how dramatically a good coach can change things in football (or how dramatically a bad coach will change things for the worse). I will overexagerrate a little to make a point, but take Adama Traore as an example. If an elite coach manages to implement a fast paced system that gets him isolated in situations on the counter with enough repetition, I actually believe he can become world class, like a top 10 winger in the world or something. Most people's natural reaction to this comment would be to think "we've already seen is the limit of what can happen with Adama". But there are many unimaginative bastards that don't know how dramatically a good manager can change things in football.

 

[Jack Straw]

Hah!

I didn't want to bring that up but you forced my hand.

 

[robertmac43]

Finland winning the IIHF Worlds in 2019 with no NHL players while beating three teams, stacked with NHL players, in a row in the playoff stage is kinda close.

It's not even close to being close lol

 

[Jussi]

It's not even close to being close lol

It actually is. AINEC.

 

[The Abusement Park]

You don’t need to rely on Saka and ESR. Pepe and Ødegaard would start for Spurs, pretty undoubdedly as well. I think even you would agree with that. Look back at how highly sought after Ødegaard and Pepe were at Sociedad and Lille just 1 and 2 years ago respectively. They were wanted by almost every team in the world. They are top top talents.

I mean a different manager would help 100%. But this squad still lacks behind City, Chelsea, United, and Liverpool by a lot. The talent isn't that great. It's a team that is solid all around but nothing really looks like a team that could contend for 4th or better. Odegaard while a decent player is still living off his one season at Sociedad which he has replicated since and Pepe has all the physical talent in the world to be an elite winger but I'm not sure about his consistency or if he's smart enough to be an elite player.

 

[robertmac43]

It actually is. AINEC.

I love the Finnish pride and all...But come on....It's the World Hockey Championships...

 

[Jussi]

I love the Finnish pride and all...But come on....It's the World Hockey Championships...

And this is a hockey site.

 

[The Abusement Park]

It actually is. AINEC.

Doing it over 38 games is way more unlikely than over 10. What Finland did was incredibly impressive, but Leicesters is way more of an achivement.

 

[S E P H]

AB is right, you lot are under emphasising the power the manager has on the entire squad. Arsenal's squad can win the league easily if the right personnel were in place and a lot of the players performed at a top gear consistently throughout the season. A great stat in terms of determining why AB is right? Just look at the goal production for Lacazette and Aubameyang before and after Artekkers took over. Both of them are at an all-time low in terms of goalscoring and offensive production.

 

[Fro]

I'm not sure you can have a rational discussion with anyone who thinks this current Arsenal squad can contend for the title.

Mute button clutch

 

[Chimaera]

I have no problem saying Arsenal have talent. They have a few players who are pretty good. Couple of overrated ones, couple of prospects, and sure, a better manager would get a lot more out of the side.

But that’s a far cry from saying with a new manager they would win the league.

In my mind, it’s still a flawed roster who spent a load of money this summer, and might only be a couple of points better (if not worse).

 

[The Abusement Park]

As a United fan I went through this exact stage with Moyes, LVG, and Mou. Looking back it’s pretty obvious why those teams were never close to a title. There were some really good players on the teambut they were surrounded with mediocrity, talented young players still finding their way and at best above average players. That’s the stage Arsenal is in right now.

Auba can be a force when he’s on but he’s getting to the age where he’s going to be getting less and less effective. ESR looks really good but he’s still fresh as a pro so he’s going to have his ups and downs. Odegaard is an alright player but plays a similar role and style to ESR which means either one of them isn’t playing or is playing out of their comfort zone.

White and Gabriel is a promising CB duo but I’m worried Arteta may not use White correctly, but that’s still to be seen.

Its a team that has some pieces but has work to do. With Arteta their no better than WHU or Everton to me. Given the right manager they could get into that Spurs/Leicester tier but even then their roster is the worst of the 3.

 

[maclean]

That Leicester squad had more talent than Arsenal has. It's also one of the most shocking events in all sports.

Arsenal is presently not on a course for that.

But, sure, maybe you can say Arsenal is possible to pull a Leicester. I might also grow four inches taller and win the lottery, but the chances of that are basically zero.

This is something quite different than judging the quality of the squad. At the end of the day, the quality of the squad is also largely determined by just how well they are playing and especially clicking together and just carrying out the game plan effectively. Obviously Arsenal is lacking and sure, I can see the argument that even a different coach wouldn't get them to click, because sometimes that just has to magically emerge out of a perfect environment. But still, teams with worse squads have accomplished more, so I don't think it's entirely unfair to say that it's rather impossible to judge the "quality" or "talent" of any squad in some kind of vacuum unrelated to their form as a unit at a given moment in time.