GDT: Pittsburgh Penguins @ Detroit Red Wings

[Redder Winger]

I cheer for a win every game because I know it upsets the tank trolls on this forum. I hope Holland resigns for four more years this offseason. The tears here will be delicious.

So you base your behavior on pissing off other people.
Even as you call other people trolls.

 

[Claypool]

So you base your behavior on pissing off other people.
Even as you call other people trolls.

Cheering for your team to win is not trolling.

 

[Redder Winger]

Cheering for your team to win is not trolling.

I didn't say it was.
That's not what you said you were doing. You said you cheering for wins because it "upsets the tank trolls," not because you enjoy it when your team has success.

Whatever. Do what you like.
As will I.

At the end of the day, I happen to believe struggles this year are more likely to lead to greater success down the road.
The sooner we fall out of the playoff picture, the sooner we can trade Green and whoever else needs to go.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Says you.

I watch the game out of interest in the team. Out of interest in the progress of the players who have a chance at being around when this team gets good again. Had Detroit won last night, but not the night before, I'd have been more receptive to the victory - as I was the night before.

But two games in a row.... Not what I'm looking for - not when we're still just 7 points out of a playoff spot.
Here's hoping the team gets back on track (off track) in January. The more tickets for the Dahlin lottery, the better.

If by some stroke of luck Detroit gets Dahlin, trades Green for a first and manages to land another good player or two in the top 35, the Red Wings rebuild might not take nearly as long as I fear.

So cheer for your meaningless wins for a mediocre team to your heart's content.
But know that every win they get makes it more likely their losing era lasts longer.

I mean, first of all, you can do whatever you want. I won't try to stop you, and i won't get mad. I'm just throwing my opinion out there on a public forum where people can read it or not, consider it or ignore it.

But honestly. It's a FAN forum. As in fanatics who support a sports team. A sports team that plays in competitions against other teams, the goal being to win the game.

I don't see any difference between a person who lives in Detroit coming to the fan forum and bitching about a Detroit win, or a Pittsburgh fan coming and doing the same thing. But the latter is against the rules because it's in poor taste. Well to me, the former is in poor taste too.

I don't have anything at all against saying things like "it's a shame we suck, but at least we will draft high!" But when you say "i hope we lose" or "I'm glad we lost", to me that is crossing the line.




On a slightly unrelated but tangential note... i should add that if it is desirable to fans to lose games, then i consider that a problem with the league's rules and structure. The lottery should be tweaked until it's fair to all teams, but always advantageous (or at least neutral) to win an individual game.

 

[Red Stanley]

I mean, first of all, you can do whatever you want. I won't try to stop you, and i won't get mad. I'm just throwing my opinion out there on a public forum where people can read it or not, consider it or ignore it.

But honestly. It's a FAN forum. As in fanatics who support a sports team. A sports team that plays in competitions against other teams, the goal being to win the game.

I don't see any difference between a person who lives in Detroit coming to the fan forum and *****ing about a Detroit win, or a Pittsburgh fan coming and doing the same thing. But the latter is against the rules because it's in poor taste. Well to me, the former is in poor taste too.

I don't have anything at all against saying things like "it's a shame we suck, but at least we will draft high!" But when you say "i hope we lose" or "I'm glad we lost", to me that is crossing the line.




On a slightly unrelated but tangential note... i should add that if it is desirable to fans to lose games, then i consider that a problem with the league's rules and structure. The lottery should be tweaked until it's fair to all teams, but always advantageous (or at least neutral) to win an individual game.

Fully agree with the bolded part. Not sure if they can both discourage deliberate tanks and make it fair for teams that are worse off naturally, but I agree. It's also good to remember the way we cheer for/against a team on a message board has no effect on the scoreboard.

 

[Redder Winger]

I mean, first of all, you can do whatever you want. I won't try to stop you, and i won't get mad. I'm just throwing my opinion out there on a public forum where people can read it or not, consider it or ignore it.

But honestly. It's a FAN forum. As in fanatics who support a sports team. A sports team that plays in competitions against other teams, the goal being to win the game.

I don't see any difference between a person who lives in Detroit coming to the fan forum and *****ing about a Detroit win, or a Pittsburgh fan coming and doing the same thing. But the latter is against the rules because it's in poor taste. Well to me, the former is in poor taste too.

If you live in a binary world where losing is bad in winning is good, I see your point.
When you understand that sometimes short-term sacrifice leads to long-term gain, well, then you might see mine.

I don't have anything at all against saying things like "it's a shame we suck, but at least we will draft high!" But when you say "i hope we lose" or "I'm glad we lost", to me that is crossing the line.

Fortunately, we can all draw our own lines.
Sure seems like a lot of people don't mind telling others what they can and can't say or think.

On a slightly unrelated but tangential note... i should add that if it is desirable to fans to lose games, then i consider that a problem with the league's rules and structure. The lottery should be tweaked until it's fair to all teams, but always advantageous (or at least neutral) to win an individual game.

I'm with you on your last point.
With the salary cap, I wish they'd got to a 31-team lottery.
Sure, give the worst team 31 balls in the lottery and the cup winner only 1. Weight it.
But it's time to get away from rewarding shitty play.

Let's just wait, however, until the Red Wings are done sucking.

 

[pz29]

I mean, first of all, you can do whatever you want. I won't try to stop you, and i won't get mad. I'm just throwing my opinion out there on a public forum where people can read it or not, consider it or ignore it.

But honestly. It's a FAN forum. As in fanatics who support a sports team. A sports team that plays in competitions against other teams, the goal being to win the game.

I don't see any difference between a person who lives in Detroit coming to the fan forum and *****ing about a Detroit win, or a Pittsburgh fan coming and doing the same thing. But the latter is against the rules because it's in poor taste. Well to me, the former is in poor taste too.

I don't have anything at all against saying things like "it's a shame we suck, but at least we will draft high!" But when you say "i hope we lose" or "I'm glad we lost", to me that is crossing the line.




On a slightly unrelated but tangential note... i should add that if it is desirable to fans to lose games, then i consider that a problem with the league's rules and structure. The lottery should be tweaked until it's fair to all teams, but always advantageous (or at least neutral) to win an individual game.

You nailed it. A system that encourages losing on purpose is flawed.

 

[pz29]

Why do you think they’re still in the hunt right now?

No, but I think at this point, it's a habit in this league.

 

[Konnan511]

Cheering for your team to win is not trolling.

To be fair, that's only a portion of what you said. You said you root for this team because it makes others sad. I also assume you meant you want KH to re-sign, not resign. Those are completely opposite.

I want this team to win every game because I love the Red Wings, they were my first sports team I enjoyed. I also want them to lose this season so we have a shot at the #1 pick. It's quite the conundrum I am faced with; win because I like winning, but lose because we need a top pick.

 

[Henkka]

You nailed it. A system that encourages losing on purpose is flawed.

They already changed the system less flawed by changing lottery odds. I think it's better now.

It really doesn't matter do we root for wins or losses. This is a bad team, which was analyzed to be 3rd-5th worst on the league with proably every possible metric before the season. They are pretty much right there.

They will win some games, but they will also lose more games on the long run.

I enjoyed to win Pittsburgh. I enjoy pretty much every win, and at same time I know, this team will be on the bottom on the standings, no matter what.

Rooting against wins is just stupid. It doesn't change the big picture.

We will draft high anyways. Lottery determines how high.

 

[Bench]

I enjoyed to win Pittsburgh. I enjoy pretty much every win, and at same time I know, this team will be on the bottom on the standings, no matter what.

Rooting against wins is just stupid. It doesn't change the big picture.

I think most of us simply wanted this band-aid ripped off years ago.

Let me put it this way. You can wait for a dead tree to fall on its own or you can cut it down. The net result is the same, but at least you control when and how it happens in the latter.

 

[Flowah]

Cheering for your team to win is not trolling.

>claims to want team to win
>wants Holland to re-sign for 4 more years

You gotta start making sense, bro.

I don't have anything at all against saying things like "it's a shame we suck, but at least we will draft high!" But when you say "i hope we lose" or "I'm glad we lost", to me that is crossing the line.

We don't want the team to lose because we want them to lose. We want the team to lose so we can get a high draft pick and draft an elite player and then actually contend again. That is in sharp contrast to any rival fan who cheers for the Wings to lose just because and would be content to see us at the bottom for the rest of time.

Sometimes, the best thing for the thing/person you love is harsh reality. A kid that doesn't study might start studying if he gets a bad grade.

 

[Henkka]

It will be nice to see both Chicago and Pittsburgh do the same "mistakes" as Holland did.

Are Penguins rebuilding? Hell not. But everybody knows they are now past their prime.

Hawks situation after 2015 became the same as Red Wings after 2009, when Toews and Kane got their market valued deals in 10M per guy. It was the exact same situation, when Franzen got his payday and Zetterberg got his payday after 2009. Paydays from success. Hossa was gone because of cap problems. Now Hossa is LTIRed because of cap problems, after succes in another organization. Those key players career contract paydays will end the TOP CONTENDING in Salary cap World.

Hawks has dopped to a "good team" level , and started carrying old Pejorative Slurs like Patrick Sharp back. Just like Holland did, with Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. Stan Bowman, the mastermind, who does everything right.

2 first round exits in last 2 playoffs for Chicago. Toews and Kane earning 13.8 million piece from those efforts. Stan Bowman, the mastermind.

Or, Stan Bowman, the victim of NHL salary market structure?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Nobody called Stan Bowman a mastermind. People appreciated the moves he made at the time, and will criticize him for moves that are problematic.

 

[jz78817]

We don't want the team to lose because we want them to lose. We want the team to lose so we can get a high draft pick and draft an elite player and then actually contend again.

the problem is the Wings aren't simply one "elite player" away from success.

 

[Flowah]

the problem is the Wings aren't simply one "elite player" away from success.

All the following statements are true.

1. Wings are pretty good at finding good depth players up and down the draft. Especially at forward.
2. Elite players are the toughest players to find in hockey.
3. Wings lack elite players, even a single one. Larkin *might* turn into one if he can keep trending up and stay consistent.
4. Wings haven't, as of yet, drafted an elite player in well over a decade. Maybe Larkin is our first in a decade. Maybe not.

From that standpoint, my most pressing concern for a competitive team is finding the elite player. I'm not that worried that the Wings scouts can't find more Tatars, Nyquists, Jensens, in the rest of the draft. I'm pretty worried about their ability to find a Matthews or Stamkos though.

 

[jkutswings]

It will be nice to see both Chicago and Pittsburgh do the same "mistakes" as Holland did.

Are Penguins rebuilding? Hell not. But everybody knows they are now past their prime.

Hawks situation after 2015 became the same as Red Wings after 2009, when Toews and Kane got their market valued deals in 10M per guy. It was the exact same situation, when Franzen got his payday and Zetterberg got his payday after 2009. Paydays from success. Hossa was gone because of cap problems. Now Hossa is LTIRed because of cap problems, after succes in another organization. Those key players career contract paydays will end the TOP CONTENDING in Salary cap World.

Hawks has dopped to a "good team" level , and started carrying old ******s like Patrick Sharp back. Just like Holland did, with Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. Stan Bowman, the mastermind, who does everything right.

2 first round exits in last 2 playoffs for Chicago. Toews and Kane earning 13.8 million piece from those efforts. Stan Bowman, the mastermind.

Or, Stan Bowman, the victim of NHL salary market structure?

Pittsburgh has played an extra 4-5 months of hockey in the last 2 seasons. I don't think it's unreasonable to at least give them a pass for one year.

But there's nothing wrong with saying that the Pens and Hawks should be looking at their team building philosophy a little differently now than when they were either on the way up or first reaching the mountain top. And, should they decide to "keep the band together" for several years past their window of having a real shot at 16 wins, then they deserve the same heat that some fans have been throwing at Holland.

It's not that a team should go from 100% loading up to 100% scorched earth. It's that there are a zillion steps in between, with lots of room for creativity, and most of what Detroit has done has been very uninspiring and has yielded mostly poor results.

 

[Konnan511]

All the following statements are true.

1. Wings are pretty good at finding good depth players up and down the draft. Especially at forward.
2. Elite players are the toughest players to find in hockey.
3. Wings lack elite players, even a single one. Larkin *might* turn into one if he can keep trending up and stay consistent.
4. Wings haven't, as of yet, drafted an elite player in well over a decade. Maybe Larkin is our first in a decade. Maybe not.

From that standpoint, my most pressing concern for a competitive team is finding the elite player. I'm not that worried that the Wings scouts can't find more Tatars, Nyquists, Jensens, in the rest of the draft. I'm pretty worried about their ability to find a Matthews or Stamkos though.

That's because those two were #1 picks. It's hard to get an elite player without a top tier pick.
58, 9, 1, 1, 7, 1, 22, 1, 5, 104, 1, 1, 5, 11, 21 - These are the positions in the draft where the current top 15 in points for this season were picked at. All but five of them were top 10 picks, and all but two of them were first rounders.

 

[Redder Winger]

It will be nice to see both Chicago and Pittsburgh do the same "mistakes" as Holland did.

Are Penguins rebuilding? Hell not. But everybody knows they are now past their prime.

Hawks situation after 2015 became the same as Red Wings after 2009, when Toews and Kane got their market valued deals in 10M per guy. It was the exact same situation, when Franzen got his payday and Zetterberg got his payday after 2009. Paydays from success. Hossa was gone because of cap problems. Now Hossa is LTIRed because of cap problems, after succes in another organization. Those key players career contract paydays will end the TOP CONTENDING in Salary cap World.

Hawks has dopped to a "good team" level , and started carrying old ******s like Patrick Sharp back. Just like Holland did, with Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. Stan Bowman, the mastermind, who does everything right.

2 first round exits in last 2 playoffs for Chicago. Toews and Kane earning 13.8 million piece from those efforts. Stan Bowman, the mastermind.

Or, Stan Bowman, the victim of NHL salary market structure?

Bowman already has.
He's entered that Holland stage where he just keeps bringing the same players back.
He moves Panarin for Saad.
He brings back Sharp.
He brings back Oduya.

There's a little too much "put the band back together again" in Bowman's game these last 2-3 years.

It shows a lack of imagination.

Weird, though, that he'd trade Hjalmarsson away. He was on a decent contract.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him try to get him back with the cap rising.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Sabres goalie Robin Lehner: 'Everything is predetermined against us' – Explica®

What the hell, this is freaking me out...i have never seen this play happen in my life and now it happened twice in...a couple days?

Whoa...

 

[Red Stanley]

Sabres goalie Robin Lehner: 'Everything is predetermined against us' – Explica®

What the hell, this is freaking me out...i have never seen this play happen in my life and now it happened twice in...a couple days?

Whoa...

Well, that was clearly a goal and so was the one Jimmy "saved" the other night. Still great effort by both goalies.

 

[Winger98]

Pittsburgh has played an extra 4-5 months of hockey in the last 2 seasons. I don't think it's unreasonable to at least give them a pass for one year.

But there's nothing wrong with saying that the Pens and Hawks should be looking at their team building philosophy a little differently now than when they were either on the way up or first reaching the mountain top. And, should they decide to "keep the band together" for several years past their window of having a real shot at 16 wins, then they deserve the same heat that some fans have been throwing at Holland.

It's not that a team should go from 100% loading up to 100% scorched earth. It's that there are a zillion steps in between, with lots of room for creativity, and most of what Detroit has done has been very uninspiring and has yielded mostly poor results.

Wasn't Letang rumored to be getting floated in trade rumors? Not a crazy thing to do, either, considering they just won a cup without him.

 

[Redder Winger]

Wasn't Letang rumored to be getting floated in trade rumors? Not a crazy thing to do, either, considering they just won a cup without him.

Still, given the way the cap is rising, not sure I'd be in a hurry to trade him, even with his injury history.

I'd shop Kessell first.

 

[chances14]

Wasn't Letang rumored to be getting floated in trade rumors? Not a crazy thing to do, either, considering they just won a cup without him.

people forget how awful the penguins looked in the majority of their playoff games last year. I don't think this pens team looks much different than the one we saw in last year's playoffs. the difference is they are not getting the goaltending to bail them out this season. if not for good goaltending and incredible puck luck I doubt they get out of the first round last year

They need letang to return to #1 dman form or trade for one.

 

[jkutswings]

Inside Hockeytown was in the local radio station tonight, and Ken Cal confirmed that Letang is involved in trade rumors.