Phoenix CXXXIII: Colonel Shuffle's Last 'Ownership' Hill To Die On

[Mightygoose]

First of all, it's a new competitor entering an already busy marketplace, also one that does a good job catering to younger and more global demographic, plus where they want to build seems to be right in the heart of the corporate and discretional dollars outside of core hockey and soccer fans.

Secondly, for pushing 3 years there's been rumour after rumour of the team looking at a new building after losing their lucrative deal in GRA. The only thing they came up with was a plan at ASU where those officials wasn't even present and died months later. Meanwhile Rising's plan which has been going on for just over a year so far has tangible movement. No multiple patches of dirt, just a plan.

They needed investors and now they have them. No mystery here. This venue may never see the light of day but there's at least something tangible. The Coyotes plan which has been going on much longer comes up with blanks. The more time passes may show there's a good reason for it.

 

[MNNumbers]

Do I have this right that Phoenix Rising just published a more-or-less agreement to build on the prime site that was being considered by the Coyotes?

If so, that may say something about the appetite for both teams in the market...

 

[Llama19]

Details including renderings of Phoenix Rising's planned new stadium should they get into MLS.

Phoenix unveils stadium renderings for MLS bid

East Valley location, not far from downtown and privately financed.

Asian investor to boot....so the rumours were true after all

And...then there is this...

To quote:

"Then there's the Arizona Coyotes which has been angling for several years to replace its present taxpayer-supplied hockey arena with a new taxpayer-supplied hockey arena. This, after a dispute with Glendale.

These teams (Coyotes, Suns, and Diamondbacks) are in the major leagues of their respective sports yet each of them would have you believe they couldn’t turn a profit without your money – hundreds of millions of dollars of your money.

Now along comes the new guy on the block, Phoenix Rising, with plans to build its own darn [privately financed] stadium."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/2018/03/15/arizona-team-proposes-pay-its-own-stadium-wow/430693002/

 

[TheLegend]

First of all, it's a new competitor entering an already busy marketplace, also one that does a good job catering to younger and more global demographic, plus where they want to build seems to be right in the heart of the corporate and discretional dollars outside of core hockey and soccer fans.

Secondly, for pushing 3 years there's been rumour after rumour of the team looking at a new building after losing their lucrative deal in GRA. The only thing they came up with was a plan at ASU where those officials wasn't even present and died months later. Meanwhile Rising's plan which has been going on for just over a year so far has tangible movement. No multiple patches of dirt, just a plan.

They needed investors and now they have them. No mystery here. This venue may never see the light of day but there's at least something tangible. The Coyotes plan which has been going on much longer comes up with blanks. The more time passes may show there's a good reason for it.

Building an MLS facility won’t come near the cost of an NBA or NHL one. $250M (according to the article) against $400M+

And what is the asking price for an MLS expansion franchise?

You’re basically comparing kumquats to rutabagas here.

 

[TheLegend]

And...then there is this...

To quote:

"Then there's the Arizona Coyotes which has been angling for several years to replace its present taxpayer-supplied hockey arena with a new taxpayer-supplied hockey arena. This, after a dispute with Glendale.

These teams (Coyotes, Suns, and Diamondbacks) are in the major leagues of their respective sports yet each of them would have you believe they couldn’t turn a profit without your money – hundreds of millions of dollars of your money.

Now along comes the new guy on the block, Phoenix Rising, with plans to build its own darn [privately financed] stadium."

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/2018/03/15/arizona-team-proposes-pay-its-own-stadium-wow/430693002/

Yeah good old Laurie Roberts... if she had her way we’d all still be washing our clothes by beating them with rocks.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Building an MLS facility won’t come near the cost of an NBA or NHL one. $250M (according to the article) against $400M+

And what is the asking price for an MLS expansion franchise?

You’re basically comparing kumquats to rutabagas here.

the other issue is MLS kinda of requires A Soccer Specific Facility, something Columbus has sued Precourt and his ownership of the Crew SC by his angling TO relocate to Austin, to essentially try to go head to head with both Dallas and Houston, Originally, Miami's foray into MLS Cost 20 M for a franchise, even though the Fusion were gonzo along with Tampa Bay's Mutiny in 2002... MLS owned the Mutiny when they were contracted, Miami, it was said lost 15 Millon of its initial fee to enter MLS, when they were contracted.

then the Chivas USA experiment began in 2004 (since replaced by LAFC), along with Real Salt Lake....

Houston became reality in 2006, as San Jose's original club went there, the Earthquakes returned in 2008, in between MLSE came in with Toronto FC....;

Seattle was next in 2009, with its Sounders FC (SEE the Seattle thread for more)... Seattle is the model for a dual football/soccer stadium, and that's when the term SSS (Soccer Specific Stadium) became more widely used for what MLS likes its franchises to be, but not all have achieved that status and/or are actively working towards that.

Chester, PA was next (Pennsylvania Union);

Vancouver and Portland followed in 2011;

Montreal added the Impact in 2012;

Chivas dissolved ten years after its run (see above citation), and LAFC debuted this season as the competitor to Carson's Galaxy;

NYCFC (owned in part by Manchester City/Yankees) and Orlando followed with its redevelopment to benefit its franchise Orlando City SC (2015);

THEN comes Atlanta United FC (Falcons) and Minnesota's United FC, AKA "The Loons" in 2017;

Miami will return by 2020 backed by David Beckham... Nashville is also on the list, but that has not been pinned down as to when Nashville will begin.

Arizona is supposedly on that same timeframe and that's why Arizona Rising has struck that deal with the tribe.... they want to join Miami and Nashville as the 2nd expansion team in 2020...that's why that arena proposal mentioned is on track, that's what the end result is.

 

[awfulwaffle]

Do I have this right that Phoenix Rising just published a more-or-less agreement to build on the prime site that was being considered by the Coyotes?

If so, that may say something about the appetite for both teams in the market...

Or that one is looking for public money while the other is not.......

 

[MNNumbers]

Or that one is looking for public money while the other is not.......

Correct. However, there would be much more good will or appetite for the franchise which is not. Correct?

In any case, the fact that the Indian Tribes Community could work with the potential MLS people, but hasn't found a way to come to a conclusion with the NHL people is surely NOT a good sign for the continuing search for an arena solution for the NHL team.

 

[tony d]

Yeah, think given Houston looks promising I think if a solution is not found for Arizona soon you'll see Houston become a very viable option for them.

 

[cheswick]

Building an MLS facility won’t come near the cost of an NBA or NHL one. $250M (according to the article) against $400M+

And what is the asking price for an MLS expansion franchise?

You’re basically comparing kumquats to rutabagas here.

Latest round of MLS expansion fees were $150mm. I guess we can assume the first $250mm of a new coyotes arena will be privately funded then....

 

[Roadrage]

Building an MLS facility won’t come near the cost of an NBA or NHL one. $250M (according to the article) against $400M+

And what is the asking price for an MLS expansion franchise?

You’re basically comparing kumquats to rutabagas here.

Even so, Coyotes can't even pony up any real cash. The cost can be $150 million for a new arena and the Coyotes still couldn't stump up the cash without borrowing against futures.

 

[Llama19]

Latest round of MLS expansion fees were $150mm. I guess we can assume the first $250mm of a new coyotes arena will be privately funded then....

Assumptions? Never!

 

[TheLegend]

Latest round of MLS expansion fees were $150mm. I guess we can assume the first $250mm of a new coyotes arena will be privately funded then....

I wouldn't assume anything. Tends to be a bad disease around here (see above).

Last known figure the Coyotes were ready to invest was $170M into the ASU project. But since then the ownership makeup changed. Plus we don't know who they're talking to, nor do we know how serious the investor search is going.

If Barroway were trying to get into the MLS then it'd be a whole different matter. But he isn't. That's why this whole Phoenix Rising issue is pointless. Other than it allows the flock of private funding only advocates a perch to chirp from.

 

[mesamonster]

I wouldn't assume anything. Tends to be a bad disease around here (see above).

Last known figure the Coyotes were ready to invest was $170M into the ASU project. But since then the ownership makeup changed. Plus we don't know who they're talking to, nor do we know how serious the investor search is going.

If Barroway were trying to get into the MLS then it'd be a whole different matter. But he isn't. That's why this whole Phoenix Rising issue is pointless. Other than it allows the flock of private funding only advocates a perch to chirp from.

I think it is also important to point out that the ASU $170MM figure was as disingenuous as it gets. Recall, Tony Leblanc wanted us all to believe that a deal with ASU to jointly develop a set of arenas was never confirmed by ASU and/or its leadership. It was nothing more than a case of Tony putting words in the mouths of the ASU leaders! On to the the legislature and Mr. Worley who proffered a bill that was a nothing burger. From those two lame attempts and an offer from AB of $170MM we have seen nothing from him. If he was so serious about financially participating in a new arena he could have headed off the naysayers by showing the money in the form of a land purchase or some other financial arrangement that left little doubt of his ability. Instead, all we get are crickets, long after he hired Steve Patterson to bring his sterling reputation into the arena search. I will say it again, they are no closer to a new EV arena, in fact I don`t think they have even bothered to look.

 

[TheLegend]

I think it is also important to point out that the ASU $170MM figure was as disingenuous as it gets. Recall, Tony Leblanc wanted us all to believe that a deal with ASU to jointly develop a set of arenas was never confirmed by ASU and/or its leadership. It was nothing more than a case of Tony putting words in the mouths of the ASU leaders! On to the the legislature and Mr. Worley who proffered a bill that was a nothing burger. From those two lame attempts and an offer from AB of $170MM we have seen nothing from him. If he was so serious about financially participating in a new arena he could have headed off the naysayers by showing the money in the form of a land purchase or some other financial arrangement that left little doubt of his ability. Instead, all we get are crickets, long after he hired Steve Patterson to bring his sterling reputation into the arena search. I will say it again, they are no closer to a new EV arena, in fact I don`t think they have even bothered to look.

Remember how I said assumption is a bad disease around here??? Thanks for providing more proof of it.

And uh.... had ASU not “confirmed” nor been on board with that deal there never would have a press conference announcing it. I’m at spring training at the moment but if you’d like me to try digging up ASU Athletic Director Ray Anderson’s quote about it later on I go digging.

In the meantime, just carry on.

 

[Llama19]

 

[WHISTLERNATE]

I just got back from a game in Phoenix. Here are my thoughts/experiences:
-Amazing rink. One of the nicest I have been to (I've been to 12 current rinks). Love the open concourses on the upper deck.
-The game was against the Canucks, maybe 12,ooo fans, and little action. The game presentation and atmosphere was very good.....much better than the Canucks games I go to in Vancouver. Very family focused, as opposed to corporate.
-Paid $12 for an all you can eat package including Hot dogs, Pop, Water, Nachos, Popcorn. Worst hot dog I've ever eaten, but still a good overall value. I don't see how they can make money off these tickets. We moved to the first row of the balcony right at centre ice.
-The Westgate area is super cool for a beer before or after the game.
- Glendale is so far from downtown, way further than I expected. What were they thinking?? Football is one thing to be that far away for 8 games a year, but 41 home dates for hockey is crazy.

-It's a shame that things won't work put there. Fans are great, and they arena was great, but the location is so bad that it is bound to fail.

 

[MNNumbers]

I just got back from a game in Phoenix. Here are my thoughts/experiences:
-Amazing rink. One of the nicest I have been to (I've been to 12 current rinks). Love the open concourses on the upper deck.
-The game was against the Canucks, maybe 12,ooo fans, and little action. The game presentation and atmosphere was very good.....much better than the Canucks games I go to in Vancouver. Very family focused, as opposed to corporate.
-Paid $12 for an all you can eat package including Hot dogs, Pop, Water, Nachos, Popcorn. Worst hot dog I've ever eaten, but still a good overall value. I don't see how they can make money off these tickets. We moved to the first row of the balcony right at centre ice.
-The Westgate area is super cool for a beer before or after the game.
- Glendale is so far from downtown, way further than I expected. What were they thinking?? Football is one thing to be that far away for 8 games a year, but 41 home dates for hockey is crazy.

-It's a shame that things won't work put there. Fans are great, and they arena was great, but the location is so bad that it is bound to fail.

For the 4000th time, the reason the arena is in Glendale is because no one else would build it for them. That's what they were thinking.

 

[WHISTLERNATE]

For the 4000th time, the reason the arena is in Glendale is because no one else would build it for them. That's what they were thinking.

Sorry bro, I don't have time to read your 4000 posts about this. Just because they didn't have other options, that doesn't mean Glendale was a good option.

 

[MNNumbers]

Sorry bro, I don't have time to read your 4000 posts about this. Just because they didn't have other options, that doesn't mean Glendale was a good option.

4000 is an exaggeration. Sorry. But the point is, there were two options...
1- move out of market
2- Glendale

Neither was good. What you are commenting on is part of the historically awful saga of this franchise. It's in an awful position. That may or may not improve.

One can say that Glendale is not a good location.

One cannot suggest that they didn't know what they were doing. Or that building there was foolish. Or that they should have built elsewhere. It was the only place available.

 

[BattleBorn]

Westgate was also supposed to be a significantly different place by 2018, wasn't it?

 

[TheLegend]

Westgate was also supposed to be a significantly different place by 2018, wasn't it?

About 4-5x the size it is now.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

One cannot suggest that they didn't know what they were doing. Or that building there was foolish. Or that they should have built elsewhere. It was the only place available.

That's not precisely true. They could have returned to America West Arena and played. Of course, the terrible lease there was costing them so much money that I'd wager that the team's losses were twice as high as they are now.

Westgate was also supposed to be a significantly different place by 2018, wasn't it?

Yes. It's a weak shadow of what it was originally planned to be.

 

[Llama19]

Reference this post (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/phoenix-cxxx-sock-it-to-me.2381057/page-8#post-135422187) on the 1.8 million in square footage that was the original Ellman dream with another reference to its timeline...

However... there will be another hotel (http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...ont-buy-me-out.2364165/page-72#post-134906277) built...

And...for history buffs...the PDF attachment shows the original, proposed Westgate layout from an Arizona Republic article from 2003...when all of this started...

 

[Glacial]

Westgate was also supposed to be a significantly different place by 2018, wasn't it?

Yeah. As with so much else we saw in this saga, it was an overly ambitious vision sold to a city council given rose-colored glasses before the presentation. All that was missing was the unicorn petting zoo. Scrutiny and due diligence weren't the strong suites of the Glendale city council. They seemed like they rubber stamped anything put before them, which was part of why the Westgate/NHL arena project was presented to other suburbs who ended up rejecting it.