Phoenix CXXXIII: Colonel Shuffle's Last 'Ownership' Hill To Die On

[MNNumbers]

Yeah, portals into the earth, no question about it. Northern Ontario, Northern Minnesota. Thousands of bogs in those remote, waterlogged woods, suck you down into another world if you step in one. Millennia of rotted forest vegetation sinking into those lakes and marshes. Hunters, hikers step into that muck . . . gone. Loon sh*t, some call it. You sink in, and there's no getting out. But wait: Like in the Creature from the Black Lagoon, a whole other world underneath those bogs. Thousands of lost woodsmen living underground in a sub-terranean cavern paradise, caught by the rocks of the Canadian shield on their way down into the depths. Underground temperature a year-round 52 degrees F, so life's good without those winters. No borders, no passports, NO DEERFLIES! It's a freaking Paul Bunyon Walhalla, is what it is! Where do you think all the Metis went when things got hot? And the Minnesota Fighting Saints. Tony LeBlanc.

No, give me a snorkel and a bog any day. It's a party down there. I'd head there myself, 'cept I owe a ton of taxes. Maybe next year.

You are a quick study. Almost as good as Killion. Keep at it, Youngster...

 

[Killion]

You are a quick study. Almost as good as Killion. Keep at it, Youngster...

Minnesota? Land of the Giants. 9 footer dug up on a farm near Twin Valley.... Killer Wendigo's running wild in the 1800's & early 1900's around Rosesu.... Peppi, the Nessie of Lake Pepin... lots of Dog Man sightings, Fergus Falls area, a Wildlife Biologist, entirely credible witness driving a back country lane at dusk winter 2009 stops as some deer up ahead cross the road... cuts the engine, its quiet, too quiet, looks around, see's this... this "creature" leaning against a tree on its haunches, but bent over like, on the prowl... long snout, dark brown, about 40' away from him just staring at the deer, paying him no attention at all.... so he pulls out a high beam flashlight & turns it on this thing, spooking the deer who take off, this "creature" none too happy about that apparently as his dinner dashes away... turns, stands up, 7 footer, glaring at the guy with angry, murderous, penetrating & no mistaking the meaning in those red, feral eyeballs.... all time stopped, petrified, pinned by that malevolent stare, presence, couldnt move, beyond fight or flight................ however, as this is all off topic... I see little point in finishing this absolutely 110% true story.... irrelevant to the subject at hand beyond the canine connection, supernatural nature of the Dog Man, continued existence of the franchise which in & of itself is really just as strange... so, please people... back on topic.... nuff a this foolin around already....

 

[WildGopher]

... so, please people...back on topic.... nuff a this foolin around already....

But I mentioned Tony LeBlanc! I thought that made it topical!

Actually, just theorizing with no special information, but I tend to agree with comments in posts above that maybe Quebec isn't closed as a relo destination, even with the conference balance issue. For the NHL, the issue of Quebec getting a team is kind of like that guest uncle who just won't go home after the party; I kind of think the league is in a position of looking pretty bad if they do two expansions while ignoring (or the insulting "deferring") Quebec. Sure, we all know if something happens to Florida in 2023 or later, it's likely Quebec would then get the Panthers. But those local issues tend to get worked out, like they did in Carolina, so I wouldn't expect a relocation of the Panthers. I agree with the others here that the NHL's first choice if the Coyotes have to move is probably Houston, with Seattle saved for the lucrative $650 million expansion payday, but if Houston doesn't want in, then why not Quebec City, parked (temporarily, at least) in the Central Division for conference balance? I bet Quebec would be one market where networks (and importantly, advertisers) wouldn't worry too much about loss of eyeballs/viewership due to games starting an hour later in the Central, or even later in the Pacific. Until some other change occurred, and Quebec could be moved to the Eastern Conference, I bet viewership of Nordiques games anywhere would be just fine.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

But I mentioned Tony LeBlanc! I thought that made it topical!

Actually, just theorizing with no special information, but I tend to agree with comments in posts above that maybe Quebec isn't closed as a relo destination, even with the conference balance issue. For the NHL, the issue of Quebec getting a team is kind of like that guest uncle who just won't go home after the party; I kind of think the league is in a position of looking pretty bad if they do two expansions while ignoring (or the insulting "deferring") Quebec. Sure, we all know if something happens to Florida in 2023 or later, it's likely Quebec would then get the Panthers. But those local issues tend to get worked out, like they did in Carolina, so I wouldn't expect a relocation of the Panthers. I agree with the others here that the NHL's first choice if the Coyotes have to move is probably Houston, with Seattle saved for the lucrative $650 million expansion payday, but if Houston doesn't want in, then why not Quebec City, parked (temporarily, at least) in the Central Division for conference balance? I bet Quebec would be one market where networks (and importantly, advertisers) wouldn't worry too much about loss of eyeballs/viewership due to games starting an hour later in the Central, or even later in the Pacific. Until some other change occurred, and Quebec could be moved to the Eastern Conference, I bet viewership of Nordiques games anywhere would be just fine.

QC is only available as a relocation destination, and then only as a final option.

The NHL doesn't want to go to Quebec City unless they have to. It's too small - and therefore volatile - of a market for comfort, it absolutely does nothing to "grow the game," and whatever revenue bonanza people think would be generated from all of the theorized sellouts they'd have would have to be turned around and used to keep the franchise solvent. And - critically - QC has no champions on the Board of Governors.

That may sound harsh, and it is. It doesn't reflect my own sentimental wish to see the Nordiques back. I would love to see a rivalry that would make the Battle of Alberta look like a polite Waiting for Godot conversation. But reality is not a fan of Quebec City returning to the NHL - especially not with the appetites the league PTB currently have.

 

[Mightygoose]

QC is only available as a relocation destination, and then only as a final option.

The NHL doesn't want to go to Quebec City unless they have to. It's too small - and therefore volatile - of a market for comfort, it absolutely does nothing to "grow the game," and whatever revenue bonanza people think would be generated from all of the theorized sellouts they'd have would have to be turned around and used to keep the franchise solvent. And - critically - QC has no champions on the Board of Governors.

That may sound harsh, and it is. It doesn't reflect my own sentimental wish to see the Nordiques back. I would love to see a rivalry that would make the Battle of Alberta look like a polite Waiting for Godot conversation. But reality is not a fan of Quebec City returning to the NHL - especially not with the appetites the league PTB currently have.

I'll agree on some level that Quebec is not the top of the list and at the end of the day, I don't see it as the landing spot. At the same time, many said the same thing about Winnipeg. Maybe even Calgary in 1980 as it was around the same size as QC and Winnipeg today.

If things don't work out in AZ, there are really not allot of landing spots out there. If expansion to Seattle happens as planned then it's up to if a deal with Fertitta can be made...which I think they will if need be.

Otherwise, with 2 teams with building issues (one of them has an ownership issue too), Quebecor may end up almost having a choice...much like TNSE nearly did 7 years ago.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'll agree on some level that Quebec is not the top of the list and at the end of the day, I don't see it as the landing spot. At the same time, many said the same thing about Winnipeg. Maybe even Calgary in 1980 as it was around the same size as QC and Winnipeg today.

If things don't work out in AZ, there are really not allot of landing spots out there. If expansion to Seattle happens as planned then it's up to if a deal with Fertitta can be made...which I think they will if need be.

Otherwise, with 2 teams with building issues (one of them has an ownership issue too), Quebecor may end up almost having a choice...much like TNSE nearly did 7 years ago.

Well, at the risk of rehashing a lot of discussion that's already happened in these and other BoH threads re: Quebec, I think it does bear repeating how many safety nets Winnipeg has keeping it above water. TNSE spent years in the run up to the Thrashers' relocation prepping their business case and arranging subsidies and the like to offset the challenges of being a small-market team. Quebec City, on the other hand - from what I was able to see, anyway - basically built an arena and said, "We can handle a team," without much or any of TNSE's meticulousness. Quebecor said, "Sure, we can come up with $500M," but the sense I got was that, when pressed, they weren't convincing about it.

All that is to say that I don't think there's a direct comparo between Winnipeg and QC when it comes to readiness to take a relocated team. I do think - based on the league's statements and reading between the lines - that none of the BoG wants to put a team there unless it's unavoidable. Which means, to me, that Bettman and co. will move heaven and earth to get the Coyotes into Houston if things reach a point where Barroway can't/won't go on and nobody else will step into his shoes to keep the team in AZ. Houston represents as much of a plug-and-play solution as QC would, except they are also squarely in the Western Conference and their market is much bigger than Quebec City.

Seattle's on the hook for an expansion fee, not relocation. I think at this point we can take it to the bank - I doubt the NHL would have greenlit a ticket drive if moving the Coyotes to the PNW was still an option on the table.

 

[Mightygoose]

Well we're going to read things differently on how we see them so no question there.

Based on the language they and the league had at the presser when Vegas was awarded, the league is OK with the business case in terms of a relp, not expansion. Can't spend 500 mil if at the end of the day there is no seller in the present. Keep quiet for now and we'll call when/if the opportunity arises....very much like Winnipeg was.

At the end of the day since this thread is about the Coyotes, IMO the league's preferred outcomes are the following order.

1) Stay in Arizona with a real long term future, arena and ownership that can operate the team....none of this year to year limbo.
2) Relocate to Houston
3)..maybe 2) Relocate to Seattle....if they don't end up expanding....unlikely IMO
4) Relocate to Quebec

Anything beyond that is either Barroway and/or the league eats the losses long term or contract the franchise....don't see either of these happening either.

 

[gstommylee]

Well we're going to read things differently on how we see them so no question there.

Based on the language they and the league had at the presser when Vegas was awarded, the league is OK with the business case in terms of a relp, not expansion. Can't spend 500 mil if at the end of the day there is no seller in the present. Keep quiet for now and we'll call when/if the opportunity arises....very much like Winnipeg was.

At the end of the day since this thread is about the Coyotes, IMO the league's preferred outcomes are the following order.

1) Stay in Arizona with a real long term future, arena and ownership that can operate the team....none of this year to year limbo.
2) Relocate to Houston
3)..maybe 2) Relocate to Seattle....if they don't end up expanding....unlikely IMO
4) Relocate to Quebec

Anything beyond that is either Barroway and/or the league eats the losses long term or contract the franchise....don't see either of these happening either.

#4 is unlikely to happen due to league inbalance. There is no room for another eastern conference team. So either 1 or 2 happens.

 

[cbcwpg]

Might be that Anthony LeBlanc has finally found his high spot in business.

Global tech, pro sports and contemporary cannabis: Modern Leaf is proud to announce Anthony LeBlanc, former NHL Team President and former Research in Motion Vice President, as new Chief Executive Officer

He says he's intrigued by the legalization of recreational cannabis in Canada.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Might be that Anthony LeBlanc has finally found his high spot in business.

Global tech, pro sports and contemporary cannabis: Modern Leaf is proud to announce Anthony LeBlanc, former NHL Team President and former Research in Motion Vice President, as new Chief Executive Officer

He says he's intrigued by the legalization of recreational cannabis in Canada.

I've always said that whoever hired Anthony LeBlanc to run anything had to be high as a kite. Now we have hard evidence!

 

[Stumbledore]

Well, at the risk of rehashing a lot of discussion that's already happened in these and other BoH threads re: Quebec, I think it does bear repeating how many safety nets Winnipeg has keeping it above water.

What are these safety nets of which you speak? We have the 17th richest man in the world (2016) as a co-owner of the team, but I'm not aware of any specific safety nets. Perhaps you alluded to the rabid fanbase? The Jets turned a profit last year and are projected to turn a larger profit this year. I'm sure Quebec City could do the same thing.

Given the indifference in Houston, especially to the 650M price, and the quietly contained eagerness of Quebecor to fill its TV and media outlets, I wouldn't be surprised to walk out of the forest one day and discover a relocation announced with no financial details revealed.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

What are these safety nets of which you speak? We have the 17th richest man in the world (2016) as a co-owner of the team, but I'm not aware of any specific safety nets. Perhaps you alluded to the rabid fanbase? The Jets turned a profit last year and are projected to turn a larger profit this year. I'm sure Quebec City could do the same thing.

A rabid fanbase in a market Winnipeg's or QC's size isn't enough on its own to keep a franchise solvent. From what I understand, Winnipeg receives subsidy money annually as part of their operating budget. I don't recall if it's from the arena deal with the city or if it's provided via a different mechanism. I applaud Winnipeg's fan loyalty and I am fully convinced that QC's fanbase would be equally as devoted, so don't take this as a knock against the fans. But market size will always be working against Winnipeg and QC, as will fluctuations in currency exchange rates.

 

[Stumbledore]

A rabid fanbase in a market Winnipeg's or QC's size isn't enough on its own to keep a franchise solvent. From what I understand, Winnipeg receives subsidy money annually as part of their operating budget. I don't recall if it's from the arena deal with the city or if it's provided via a different mechanism. I applaud Winnipeg's fan loyalty and I am fully convinced that QC's fanbase would be equally as devoted, so don't take this as a knock against the fans. But market size will always be working against Winnipeg and QC, as will fluctuations in currency exchange rates.

True North receives some tax breaks incentives due to the huge influx of business it brings downtown. (Last street party featured 23,000 fans buying $10 beers and the restaurants are reporting record sales.) They also receive all the revenue from a small faux casino located adjacent to the arena which would normally be taxed. That's about it as far as "subsidies" go. Of course, through its real estate developments (Google up "true north square") and other ventures, True North will always turn a profit, but that's to be expected from any sports conglomerate.

Yes, a rabid fanbase alone isn't enough to keep a franchise solvent. But no team survives on just its ticket sales. Market size can be overcome and small markets have to be intelligently managed. Given that Quebecor has a huge octopus of corporations which have tentacles into many aspects of that province and beyond, the belief around this part of the woods is that they would prosper quite nicely.

The more intriguing question still remains: will the problems and prospects of the NHL unfold and conspire in such a way to relocate the coyotes in la belle province?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

True North receives some tax breaks incentives due to the huge influx of business it brings downtown. (Last street party featured 23,000 fans buying $10 beers and the restaurants are reporting record sales.) They also receive all the revenue from a small faux casino located adjacent to the arena which would normally be taxed. That's about it as far as "subsidies" go. Of course, through its real estate developments (Google up "true north square") and other ventures, True North will always turn a profit, but that's to be expected from any sports conglomerate.

Yes, a rabid fanbase alone isn't enough to keep a franchise solvent. But no team survives on just its ticket sales. Market size can be overcome and small markets have to be intelligently managed. Given that Quebecor has a huge octopus of corporations which have tentacles into many aspects of that province and beyond, the belief around this part of the woods is that they would prosper quite nicely.

Of course that belief exists in your part of the woods - I wouldn't expect Canadian hockey fans to believe anything else. But I'd wager that there was also a belief that the Nordiques never would have relocated in the first place, until they did. And yes, market size can be overcome with intelligent management... but then, so can desert markets (see: Vegas). Anything can be a success if it's done right. My point was that TNSE did everything right with Winnipeg, but it seems to me that the league has questions about whether that due diligence and intelligent strategy will be replicated by Quebecor.

The more intriguing question still remains: will the problems and prospects of the NHL unfold and conspire in such a way to relocate the coyotes in la belle province?

No. QC may yet get a team but it won't be the Coyotes.

 

[gstommylee]

True North receives some tax breaks incentives due to the huge influx of business it brings downtown. (Last street party featured 23,000 fans buying $10 beers and the restaurants are reporting record sales.) They also receive all the revenue from a small faux casino located adjacent to the arena which would normally be taxed. That's about it as far as "subsidies" go. Of course, through its real estate developments (Google up "true north square") and other ventures, True North will always turn a profit, but that's to be expected from any sports conglomerate.

Yes, a rabid fanbase alone isn't enough to keep a franchise solvent. But no team survives on just its ticket sales. Market size can be overcome and small markets have to be intelligently managed. Given that Quebecor has a huge octopus of corporations which have tentacles into many aspects of that province and beyond, the belief around this part of the woods is that they would prosper quite nicely.

The more intriguing question still remains: will the problems and prospects of the NHL unfold and conspire in such a way to relocate the coyotes in la belle province?

They would relocated to houston not quebec if coyotes had to move to keep it 16/16. Relocating western to eastern city has the same issue of one of the reasons why Quebec was deferred in their expansion bid. No room out east and detroit/columbus aren't moving to the western conference. If you look at the map of the teams where they are located Houston make the alignement table look rather nicely aligned geographically.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Stumbledore]

Of course that belief exists in your part of the woods - I wouldn't expect Canadian hockey fans to believe anything else.

Well, I don't get out much...

They would relocated to houston not quebec if coyotes had to move to keep it 16/16. Relocating western to eastern city has the same issue of one of the reasons why Quebec was deferred in their expansion bid. No room out east and detroit/columbus aren't moving to the western conference. If you look at the map of the teams where they are located Houston make the alignement table look rather nicely aligned geographically.

Again, I don't hold much credence in the alignment issue. Anymoose can handle having lopsided horns for a short period. There's a couple of other major issues on the horizon but if the right problems arise at the right time and there's no movement in Houston, I can definitely see the desert dogs moving east as part of the CBA nonsense that's going to explode.

 

[gstommylee]

Well, I don't get out much...



Again, I don't hold much credence in the alignment issue. Anymoose can handle having lopsided horns for a short period. There's a couple of other major issues on the horizon but if the right problems arise at the right time and there's no movement in Houston, I can definitely see the desert dogs moving east as part of the CBA nonsense that's going to explode.

Umm NHL didn't give quebec expansion cause of alignment issue they do not want to have 17 teams out east. Bettman said they aren't going to force detroit or columbus back to the western conference. There is no room for another eastern team.

The NHL is not going to be moving a western team to the eastern conference city. They want to have 16 western located team cities and 16 eastern team located city. Not 15 and 17.

 

[Stumbledore]

Umm NHL didn't give quebec expansion cause of alignment issue they do not want to have 17 teams out east. Bettman said they aren't going to force detroit or columbus back to the western conference. There is no room for another eastern team.

The NHL is not going to be moving a western team to the eastern conference city. They want to have 16 western located team cities and 16 eastern team located city. Not 15 and 17.

Ummm, the NHL frequently says one thing (yep, looking at you, Daley) and then contradicts themselves and/or walks it back later.

Agreed, they want to have 16 and 16, just like they wanted to have 2 expansion teams and 8 teams in each division. Just like they wanted to have the Coyotes succeed in Glendale. Just like they wanted both Portland and Houston to bid on an expansion franchise. Just like they wanted ... well, chewing over old cud here.

I'm not saying the NHL wants to have Quebec City back in the league. I'm just foreseeing a time when issues collide to create a situation where the NHL will find that a relocation to QC will solve the most problems with the least financial impact, going forward.

 

[gstommylee]

Ummm, the NHL frequently says one thing (yep, looking at you, Daley) and then contradicts themselves and/or walks it back later.

Agreed, they want to have 16 and 16, just like they wanted to have 2 expansion teams and 8 teams in each division. Just like they wanted to have the Coyotes succeed in Glendale. Just like they wanted both Portland and Houston to bid on an expansion franchise. Just like they wanted ... well, chewing over old cud here.

I'm not saying the NHL wants to have Quebec City back in the league. I'm just foreseeing a time when issues collide to create a situation where the NHL will find that a relocation to QC will solve the most problems with the least financial impact, going forward.

If they wanted 15/17 they would have given Quebec expansion and give Seattle the coyotes in 2 years. They didn't. NHL controls where the teams are located at and where they move too. They aren't going to move coyotes to Quebec when they got a better option in Houston. If the coyotes have to move they'll be going to houston not quebec.

 

[MNNumbers]

If they wanted 15/17 they would have given Quebec expansion and give Seattle the coyotes in 2 years. They didn't. NHL controls where the teams are located at and where they move too. They aren't going to move coyotes to Quebec when they got a better option in Houston. If the coyotes have to move they'll be going to houston not quebec.

Did you read his post!?!?!?!?!?

Tommy, suppose the following....
1- Seattle gets expansion
2- Fertitta's won't pay more than 300M
3- The league is on the hook for Coyotes losses
4- There is no new arena.

Now, the owners themselves would be losing 35M+ every year in Glendale.

What would you do?

 

[Stumbledore]

If they wanted 15/17 they would have given Quebec expansion and give Seattle the coyotes in 2 years. They didn't. NHL controls where the teams are located at and where they move too. They aren't going to move coyotes to Quebec when they got a better option in Houston. If the coyotes have to move they'll be going to houston not quebec.

Okay, last response and then I have some tender succulents to pursue.

"If they had wanted 15/17..." As I said before, the NHL does not want 15/17.

"NHL controls where the teams are located [at] and where they move [too]." I never said otherwise. And it will be the NHL that gets forced into a corner by at least two CBA issues colliding and ends up doing what it previously has not wanted to do.

"they got a better option in Houston." No, they don't. They want to sell Fertitta a team for $650 million. Fertitta doesn't want to buy at that price, nor will he take a relocated failed team at that price. Neither will Paul Allen, who passed on the Coyotes at $180 million.

"If the coyotes have to move..." They don't, at present. They will, in about 18 months.

"they'll be going to Houston". They can't move there if the only arena is controlled by Fertitta and he doesn't want them there.

Now, you'll excuse me, but I have a damp date with a lovely patch of water lilies.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I'm not saying the NHL wants to have Quebec City back in the league. I'm just foreseeing a time when issues collide to create a situation where the NHL will find that a relocation to QC will solve the most problems with the least financial impact, going forward.

I agree with this, actually, but that's not the same thing as expecting the Coyotes to be the team going to QC. For all we know, it could be Ottawa that moves to QC, depending on how their arena situation progresses.

 

[TheLegend]

Man all these "what ifs" are making me dizzy....

Suppose everyone will be tuning into the "Power of Sports" thingie in about 30 minutes to get their Steve Patterson fix.

That is if they live in an area where you can get FoxSportsAZ. Which excludes about 99% of you all unless anyone cares to install their streaming app (which still requires you to have a subscription for regular access to their channel.)

(btw... the show is listed under soccer... so YMMV)

 

[The Feckless Puck]

"If the coyotes have to move..." They don't, at present. They will, in about 18 months.

...possibly.

But if it comes down to cutting a deal with Fertitta to take the Coyotes at a discount versus sending them to QC, IMO the league's going to do the former and they won't even think twice about it.