Phil Kessel - Discussion Thread

[HoweHullOrr]

That is because the very assets it took to acquire him (high draft picks) the same things that most teams use to build good teams.

If a team trades away its best team building assets it shouldn't come as a surprise that its difficult to build a good team. That is why good teams build and bad teams buy, knowing full well if you spend your assets to acquire assets you no longer have assets to finish the job.

Leafs went out and spent their money on a Ferrari in Kessel and cleaned out their bank account going bankrupt in the process preventing then from acquiring other assets. Now they complain the house is falling apart around them, but the Ferrari in the driveway sure is nice, and not the reason for their problems because it still runs well. Smart people first build up their houses and then can afford to buy that luxary car in the future when they have saved up and have disposable income.

Seems people want their cake and want to eat it to.

Its not the Ferrari's fault it was the ones that was in charge of the purchasing decisions.

I like the analogy. Acquiring a talent like Kessel has to be considered within two important contexts:

1. What stage was the team in at the time of acquisition i.e., bare cupboards and in need of a real rebuild?
   
2. Salary cap.

We are still in the process of building the foundation of the team here. In the initial stages of a rebuild, you use the draft to build.

 

[hullsy47]

Kessel didn't really fail so much as he was put in a situation where success was never possible.

The trade should never have been made. Wrong team, wrong player, wrong time. But of course when you have a pig headed jackass running your organization and trying to make an impression mistakes like this get made.

I don't blame Phil at all. He is a what he is....What he is is a complete suck....but that isn't news. He is what we thought he was and yet the organization insisted in believing in him.

i agree burke put him in the position to be the highest paid leaf ,.and burke knew kessel was no leader ,nonis/burke ,have to be mentioned in the same breath as JFJ , or gord stelicl

 

[Confucius]

No, it's not untrue.

The two facts (both liking to play hockey here, but also not caring if he is traded to another team) are not mutually exclusive.

He said "I love Toronto. But [if] it’s not here, it’s not here.â€

Does that sound like a passionate desire to continue playing for the Leafs? Or could a reasonable person infer from that statement that he is A-OK with moving on and playing somewhere else?

I'd think there is some type of code of conduct written into contracts. Something along the lines don't diss your city or you can be suspended. Seems to me Kessel is signalling he wants out but at the same time he is not knocking the city or organization.

 

[likeabosski]

Well at the very least it looks like Phil Kessel won't exercise his No Trade Clause the way that Mats Sundin did (and the Leafs wanted to trade him to a contender! Not some bum team). Maybe Kessel wouldn't want to be traded to certain teams. Like only contenders. Or doesn't want to move to cities where it is cold (ie. Calgary or Edmonton). I don't know his personality. There are plenty of guys who don't really care about winning the cup and just want to get paid. And guys that are picky about weather, location, management, etc. And guys that don't care.

 

[KingMatthews]

I'd think there is some type of code of conduct written into contracts. Something along the lines don't diss your city or you can be suspended. Seems to me Kessel is signalling he wants out but at the same time he is not knocking the city or organization.

I'm not certain I see it that way. I think he's just being blasé in response to events of late - the criticism, the recent play of the team, etc. I don't necessarily think he wants out but he's probably a little weary of playing for a team with such a toxic atmosphere around it. He's always wore his emotions on his sleeve and I can't really blame him for it, all he's done since he's been here is score at an elite level and still takes harsh criticism every year for it. You can argue whether it's justified or not, but I don't think he re-signs if he is truly unhappy with the city. I think he just wants to win and have success as much as anyone with a competitive bone wants to.

 

[pspot]

Has he once put this team on his back during any of the games in this past stretch?

In any period?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Well at the very least it looks like Phil Kessel won't exercise his No Trade Clause the way that Mats Sundin did (and the Leafs wanted to trade him to a contender! Not some bum team). Maybe Kessel wouldn't want to be traded to certain teams. Like only contenders. Or doesn't want to move to cities where it is cold (ie. Calgary or Edmonton). I don't know his personality. There are plenty of guys who don't really care about winning the cup and just want to get paid. And guys that are picky about weather, location, management, etc. And guys that don't care.

Kessel decided to leave a contender in Boston to join a hockey crazy city like Toronto that was a bottom 10 team and that had not made the playoffs for 4 seasons. I dont think his priority was to win or he simply had no understanding what it took to become a winner. He got paid at least and perhaps that is his biggest motivation, getting paid to play hackey.

 

[yubbers]

No, it's not untrue.

The two facts (both liking to play hockey here, but also not caring if he is traded to another team) are not mutually exclusive.

He said "I love Toronto. But [if] it’s not here, it’s not here.”

Does that sound like a passionate desire to continue playing for the Leafs? Or could a reasonable person infer from that statement that he is A-OK with moving on and playing somewhere else?

Do you just parrot what you hear on HNIC?

Healy twisted up the word just like you did. It means he loves Toronto but wants to play where he's wanted. If that's not here, it's not here.

What could be giving him the impression he's not wanted here? Hmmmm.

 

[Mess]

I like the analogy. Acquiring a talent like Kessel has to be considered within two important contexts:

1. What stage was the team in at the time of acquisition i.e., bare cupboards and in need of a real rebuild?
2. Salary cap.

We are still in the process of building the foundation of the team here. In the initial stages of a rebuild, you use the draft to build.

Agreed. Its really basically common sense when you think about it.

In life one sets priorities and puts food and shelter & family in front of luxuary items like an expensive car.

Just like in NHL team building practices one puts the tried and tested priorities of #1G and #1D and #1C higher, building from the net out to create their foundation and then put the finishing touches on near the end with a #1Winger (when needed).

A teams best currency to team building is its draft picks provided to them annually by the NHL to assist in the construction process.

So if you go out and inexplicable spend your best assets (draft picks) going against basic common sense on a luxuary item as your first & most expensive purchase in Kessel and start constructing your team from the Wingers In via backasswards logic, then its really not hard to understand where you went wrong.

Its not Kessel's fault the team builder was following a flawed blueprint for success. Now hopefully the new management team can use Kessel in trade to reacquire the higher priority items in successful team building or at least put the money back in the bank as high draft picks and begin again from where it went off the rails in the first place.

 

[likeabosski]

Kessel decided to leave a contender in Boston to join a hockey crazy city like Toronto that was a bottom 10 team and that had not made the playoffs for 4 seasons. I dont think his priority was to win or he simply had no understanding what it took to become a winner. He got paid at least and perhaps that is his biggest motivation, getting paid to play hackey.

Kessel was young back then. Like just under 22 years old when he was traded. Players tend to start caring more about their legacy and winning a cup as they get older if they are ambitious. After 5.7 seasons with the Toronto Maple Leafs and only making the playoffs once, he might be inclined to want to leave for a contender.

But Kessel could really just be about the money and I don't blame him. He still has like $56 million USD/7 years left on his contract and whatever pro-rated amount is left from this season. He's living in a nice downtown Toronto condo with his buddy Bozak. He avoids getting hit on the ice to prolong his NHL career. If he doesn't have any cup ambitions, why would he change his life? He's got it nice here in Toronto.

When you are a young NHLer, career development and money are the most important considerations. The Leafs were going to give Phil Kessel a guaranteed spot on the first line (which would give him an opportunity to improve his value) and $5.4 million USD/year (at the time). But he did re-sign with a losing team for 8 years @ $8 million USD/year though. So maybe it really just is about the money for him.

 

[Mess]

Kessel decided to leave a contender in Boston to join a hockey crazy city like Toronto that was a bottom 10 team and that had not made the playoffs for 4 seasons. I dont think his priority was to win or he simply had no understanding what it took to become a winner. He got paid at least and perhaps that is his biggest motivation, getting paid to play hackey.

Kessel posted on his own twitter account last year as the NHL playoffs were just beginning that "nothing beats fishing".

When you combine your post with his you get that Kessel doesn't care about pesky NHL playoffs as they cut into his free hobby time of fishing and golfing.

An NHL player only gets paid for the NHL regular season 82 games and the rest is bonus only. So when you leave a cup contending team to join a bottom feeder over money you know you only need to put in 82 games to get your full contract salary.

So when teams like Chicago pay Kane his contract they know they're getting both regular season and long playoff seasons and sometimes even a Cup for their investment $$. In Toronto Kessel knows that most years his contract is paid in full in the regular season and as long as he has provided his services for the full 82 games and scored his goals and assists he has fulfilled his side of the bargain. Which helps explain his desire to stay here despite the team not winning with him.

So that is why Ownership understands they don't need high ticket items like Kessel and Phaneuf for their non playoff team as its a bad investment on their part. They need players first that take them to the playoffs annually and then are willing to pay them thereafter on performance but also getting their best bang for their buck themselves via playoff gate receipts reimbursement.

 

[yubbers]

So a guy that's out of the playoffs, keeps living his life and tweets that he enjoys something. You should apply at Rogers

I agree it was Ill advised timing but come on. The Phil word manipulator is getting a lot of use this week

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

So a guy that's out of the playoffs, keeps living his life and tweets that he enjoys something. You should apply at Rogers

I agree it was Ill advised timing but come on. The Phil word manipulator is getting a lot of use this week

Ah so you completely forgot just how we missed the playoffs last season and how shorty after Kessel made that tweet? You support for players who dont care is admirable, sort of.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Kessel posted on his own twitter account last year as the NHL playoffs were just beginning that "nothing beats fishing".

When you combine your post with his you get that Kessel doesn't care about pesky NHL playoffs as they cut into his free hobby time of fishing and golfing.

An NHL player only gets paid for the NHL regular season 82 games and the rest is bonus only. So when you leave a cup contending team to join a bottom feeder over money you know you only need to put in 82 games to get your full contract salary.

So when teams like Chicago pay Kane his contract they know they're getting both regular season and long playoff seasons and sometimes even a Cup for their investment $$. In Toronto Kessel knows that most years his contract is paid in full in the regular season and as long as he has provided his services for the full 82 games and scored his goals and assists he has fulfilled his side of the bargain. Which helps explain his desire to stay here despite the team not winning with him.

So that is why Ownership understands they don't need high ticket items like Kessel and Phaneuf for their non playoff team as its a bad investment on their part. They need players first that take them to the playoffs annually and then are willing to pay them thereafter on performance but also getting their best bang for their buck themselves via playoff gate receipts reimbursement.

Good post and spot on.

 

[yubbers]

Ah so you completely forgot just how we missed the playoffs last season and how shorty after Kessel made that tweet? You support for players who dont care is admirable, sort of.

No, but when the season is done, it's done. It would keep you happy knowing he sat in a dark room crying instead of living his life? Lirl

Of course if you don't like Phil you'll mince it up. Ill timed because guys like you are ready to jump down his throat for an innocent comment.

But keep using that

 

[Mess]

Has he once put this team on his back during any of the games in this past stretch?

In any period?

Glenn Healy pointed that out last night.

Kessel has scored 4 goals in his last 27 games and 3 of those goals came against non playoff teams Columbus, Arizona and Edmonton with only a single goal coming against a playoff team Boston.

Leafs would have won most of those games regardless if Kessel scored verses the non playoff ones, claiming the ones he has scored are almost meaningless in the big picture of Leafs current situation.

He said it helps explain why Leafs have lost 22 of their last 26 games played. If nothing else Kessel is paid to score and when he doesn't he is a big part of the problem and not the solution.

 

[yubbers]

Because his hockey stats don't leave you guys much to argue about.

Fishing indeed

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

No, but when the season is done, it's done. It would keep you happy knowing he sat in a dark room crying instead of living his life? Lirl

Of course if you don't like Phil you'll mince it up. Ill timed because guys like you are ready to jump down his throat for an innocent comment.

But keep using that

When our highest paid player fail to show up during the seasons most critical period and the team around him that rely on his goalscoring collapse you dont rub it the fans faces who probably still watching the playoffs wishing the Leafs where in it, that nothing beats fishing.

I dont expect him to sit in a dark room, I would however expect him to come back in better shape then ever, ready to live up to his contract as a go to player. But even that he failed with.

The day he is traded is the day we can become a team again.

 

[yubbers]

His off season laziness was very disappointing. This I can't refute. And it does fall on Phil.

Now can we blame management and leadership as well? I would in part say yes.

Phil is not a leader and was never advertised as one. He is the type of player that needs guidance and somebody on him. Is that ideal? No. But when you can harness a skill like Kessel, it's lethal.

Dion always has been the problem with us not being a team.

 

[hullsy47]

When our highest paid player fail to show up during the seasons most critical period and the team around him that rely on his goalscoring collapse you dont rub it the fans faces who probably still watching the playoffs wishing the Leafs where in it, that nothing beats fishing.

I dont expect him to sit in a dark room, I would however expect him to come back in better shape then ever, ready to live up to his contract as a go to player. But even that he failed with.

The day he is traded is the day we can become a team again.

 

[Mess]

His off season laziness was very disappointing. This I can't refute. And it does fall on Phil.

Now can we blame management and leadership as well? I would in part say yes.

Phil is not a leader and was never advertised as one. He is the type of player that needs guidance and somebody on him. Is that ideal? No. But when you can harness a skill like Kessel, it's lethal.

It's likely what Tim Leiweke was implying with his comment at the beginning of the season.

"There are players we have in our organization today whose numbers are off the chart good and whose character is just terrible."

Now it appears Leafs new objective is to remove the character issues even at the expense of goals and assists in an attempt to win more.

 

[YOYOTCROSTER*]

Kessel is a very smart man. He got the contract and the money he wanted which he was never going to get in Boston. Only blame here is on Leaf management for their lack of foresight which Burke admitted. He said he misread how bad the team truly was when he took over. Boston management better understood the player, their team and how bad the Leafs were. This is all very simple folks. There is no more to it then that.

Going forward Kessel needs to go to a team which has a great left handed passing and checking centre and a big power forward left winger. Under this scenario Kessel will put up 100 points. He is a perimeter shooter like Bossy and Lafleur. But those guys can be stars when you put them with Trots and Gilles and Lemaire and Lambart. Both scenarios make stars. A left handed skilled passing centre who can backcheck and gets pucks to the star shooter and a big strong left winger who can create time and space for the shooter. In all these types of scenarios the shooter can be a star. Shooters never get hit. Shooters never go in the corners. Shooters never block shots. Shooters can not afford to get winded playing defence. Shooters do not hit the ice when team is up late in games. Shooters need all their shift energy to beat the left defence and goalie with a play or shot. Again this is really simple folks. It has been the way it is for many many years in the nhl.

Leafs managment is so weak it is just terrible. Probably because of dim wits on MLSE board but i am not sure about that one. Randy was ony smart one in the entire group. He realized what Kessel is and used him the only way possible. He knew it was not ideal playing with bozak and jvr but it was best scenario he had to win. Hit Kessel high with puck and let him do this thing. The time and space was created with the long pass and the cheat.

Again this is not the best way to create time and space for the shooter as it creates just as many chances the other way. Best way is you have Gilles get puck up the boards past dman every time. Trots beats his centre and gets puck to Boss for a 1 on 1 with opposing dman. He will win say 10-15% of these matchups and get his goal a game. This is all you need. Your defence and goalie are great and 2nd and 3rd lines chip in with a goal or two and you win 3-2 or 2-1. This is the time and tested true formula for winning. The Hawks and Pens do it great today.

Other formula is you get best goalie and best defence and play really tough up front. The Kings and Bruins have the formula here. Used to be the Flyers. Blues and Preds are trying it out right now.

 

[realgoodleafs]

Has he once put this team on his back during any of the games in this past stretch?

In any period?

Well we probably won't collapse anymore once he is gone. We just won't win any games at the start of the year which are mainly due to Phil going on a huge streak. We'll just be terrible for the whole year.

 

[Mess]

Well we probably won't collapse anymore once he is gone. We just won't win any games at the start of the year which are mainly due to Phil going on a huge streak. We'll just be terrible for the whole year.

Which is an ideal situation for a team about to embark on a draft rebuild off of a scorched earth reset that includes the assets returned from a Kessel trade.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Well we probably won't collapse anymore once he is gone. We just won't win any games at the start of the year which are mainly due to Phil going on a huge streak. We'll just be terrible for the whole year.

Or we find other ways to win games? Not unheard of that a team play away a player and then others step up their game since they are given more ice time. But yeah, with or without Kessel we are a bad team and it will take some years before we are back where we belong.