Phil Kessel - Discussion Thread

[Stephen]

Maybe we should stop trying to change the perennial superstar and compensate with his inferior linemates? Just an idea.

Many of Kessel's inferior teammates have found a way to form useful lines that chip in offensively and are improving defensively, while playing at an uptempo pace every night. That list of players includes Santorelli, Winnik, Komarov, Clarkson, Holland, Panik and lately Lupul and Kadri as well. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Bozak and JVR are better than a lot of those guys mentioned.

Why can't Kessel just buy into the program? The guy's a 30 goal scorer... not Brett Hull in his prime.

 

[Leafidelity]

Many of Kessel's inferior teammates have found a way to form useful lines that chip in offensively and are improving defensively, while playing at an uptempo pace every night. That list of players includes Santorelli, Winnik, Komarov, Clarkson, Holland, Panik and lately Lupul and Kadri as well. I don't think it's much of a stretch to say Bozak and JVR are better than a lot of those guys mentioned.

Why can't Kessel just buy into the program? The guy's a 30 goal scorer...

Kessel has played with James "fly the zone" Van Reimsdyk almost exclusively the past two years. Wouldn't it make more sense to push low down defence on the 50-60 point player? Why do we constantly want to change the one player that does an important job at an elite level?

 

[613Leafer]

Just like many Hall of Fame players. Or should Mike Bossy have spent more time on the penalty kill? Forget trying to score Mr Hull, you need to be holding your defensemans hand in your end.

I'm mostly talking about 5 on 5. And Bossy played in completely different era where team defence was nearly as effective as it is in the modern era. Back then you COULD be an all-out offensive force who didn't really care about backchecking/defence and still be very effective. You can't do that now.

Santorelli/Komarov get tough minutes against tough opposition, and yet still OUTSCORE the opposition.

Kessel and his linemates on the otherhand have consistently struggled year-to-year to outscore the opposition 5 on 5. For as good as they are offensively, that line is just SUCH a liability defensively, that the only way they could really be effective would be if they got lopsided offensive zone starts and minutes mostly against other teams 2nd/3rd/4th lines.

 

[Leafidelity]

I'm mostly talking about 5 on 5. And Bossy played in completely different era where team defence was nearly as effective as it is in the modern era. Back then you COULD be an all-out offensive force who didn't really care about backchecking/defence and still be very effective. You can't do that now.

Santorelli/Komarov get tough minutes against tough opposition, and yet still OUTSCORE the opposition.

Kessel and his linemates on the otherhand have consistently struggled year-to-year to outscore the opposition 5 on 5. For as good as they are offensively, that line is just SUCH a liability defensively, that the only way they could really be effective would be if they got lopsided offensive zone starts and minutes mostly against other teams 2nd/3rd/4th lines.

Sounds more like a team that hasn't surrounded him with the proper line make-up. If you look all around the NHL, teams have found ways to insulate top offensive players with proper supporting casts. Many of those offensive players are hanging out at the blueline more than Kessel is. I know a lot of guys here like hyperbole, but he isn't the worst defensive player in the NHL.

 

[TootooTrain]

Or Phil could just start playing like a normal player and stop acting like such a DH.

Why can't Kessel just buy into the program?

He's atleast proven that he wants to be better. He's seen back deep in the zone helping our our dmen all the time whether or not he's effective in doing so. The 'want' is there. Jvr on the other hand is the true passenger. No urgency what so ever on our side of center ice.

 

[Stephen]

Just like many Hall of Fame players. Or should Mike Bossy have spent more time on the penalty kill? Forget trying to score Mr Hull, you need to be holding your defensemans hand in your end.

Yeah, your comparison to Bossy and Hull is fine except Kessel is more of a Mike Gartner in terms of output.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

And now when everyone starts pushing the stupid agenda "Kessel cheats" in about three months, we can track where this idiocy started...

Kessel's game stems from his legs, when he is skating he is an elite offensive player, the stick is secondary.

I actually think he may score more goals if he used a regular stick. There is a reason why he does not one time shots, too much flex. Adding a slapper like Ovie's or like B Hull had, is not such a bad thing. You would think he would there is a reason why he has not had more than 37 goals as a career high.

 

[thewave]

Kessel's game stems from his legs, when he is skating he is an elite offensive player, the stick is secondary.

I actually think he may score more goals if he used a regular stick. There is a reason why he does not one time shots, too much flex. Adding a slapper like Ovie's or like B Hull had, is not such a bad thing. You would think he would there is a reason why he has not had more than 37 goals as a career high.

Good post and I think it's accurate. I wouldn't be surprised he may score more if he toned down the flex. I think he became addicted to scoring in that particular way and has his mind made up.

 

[Leafidelity]

Yeah, your comparison to Bossy and Hull is fine except Kessel is more of a Mike Gartner in terms of output.

The past few years Kessel has finished 9th, 6th, 8th and 6th in the scoring race.

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey/nhlrecords/yearbyyear.html

Gartner never finished higher than 10th in points among his peer group, and he only did that once. He played from 1978–1998 if you want to check for yourself.

 

[Gallagbi]

Good post and I think it's accurate. I wouldn't be surprised he may score more if he toned down the flex. I think he became addicted to scoring in that particular way and has his mind made up.

Brett Hull used an extremely whippy stick. Mission and Warrior were making him sticks in the low 60 flex range.

Last I saw Ov and Kessel were both using 77 flexes, but Ovechkin did swap out on some PPs to a stiffer flex. He's also tried out a lot of different flexes, so he may not be at 77 anymore but he was usually in the 75-85 range.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Kessel has played with James "fly the zone" Van Reimsdyk almost exclusively the past two years. Wouldn't it make more sense to push low down defence on the 50-60 point player? Why do we constantly want to change the one player that does an important job at an elite level?

I've asked this multiple times, no one answers

 

[hockeyes]

I wonder if Kessel might benefiting from using different sticks and flexes depending on game situations. On a powerplay you might want to give yourself more looks than when you're more likely to be using the whippy stick off the rush.

I made a thread about this last year, the general consensus was it was a bad idea.

I still think it would help improve his game, players that have commented on trying his stick say they can barely handle the puck. This seems pretty accurate as Kessel has way to many pucks bobble away from him for someone with his skill. He's also matured into more of a play maker where he doesn't need to rely so much on his shot.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

His scoring is just fine. i just can't stand the way he avoids any contact and just gets rid of the puck at the sight of any tiny hit coming his way. it's pretty embarrassing at times. but then he ties games, pots in game winners and does a lot of scoring for us. i hope he grows his game.

He handled contact pretty well in the playoffs so I'm not to concerned about that. As long as he covers lanes and puts in an effort positionally on the defensive end (during the regular season) I'm happy because, it seems, if the Leafs make the playoffs he raises his game, as he should, and handles contact in that do or die environment, and thats when it really counts.

 

[Stephen]

Kessel has played with James "fly the zone" Van Reimsdyk almost exclusively the past two years. Wouldn't it make more sense to push low down defence on the 50-60 point player? Why do we constantly want to change the one player that does an important job at an elite level?

Kessel flies the zone as much as his linemate, so why doesn't he get held to the same standard.

He may give you 30+ goals a year but he gives them back like it's the 1980s, which clearly doesn't work.

 

[Leafidelity]

Kessel flies the zone as much as his linemate, so why doesn't he get held to the same standard.

He may give you 30+ goals a year but he gives them back like it's the 1980s, which clearly doesn't work.

He doesn't get held to the same standard because his linemates don't produce at the same standard. It may come as a shock, but Wayne wasn't a defensive stud. Top offensive players get a longer leash all around the NHL.

Again, I don't know why you want the Ferrari to pull a boat. That's not it's purpose.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Kessel flies the zone as much as his linemate, so why doesn't he get held to the same standard.

He may give you 30+ goals a year but he gives them back like it's the 1980s, which clearly doesn't work.

Because Kessel scores 20-30 more points than his line mate. The reason the line is doing as bad as it is because we have two players who are lackadaisical in the defensive zone and like to fly the zone. I don't know about you but I'd tell the guy scoring 20-30 less points smartening up his defense than the guy who is an elite scorer in the NHL. The smart move would be to take JVR off the first line and move a defensively responsible winger up. Unfortunately the Leafs don't have someone like that can also play at a high level as Phil. Maybe Santorelli.

 

[silentbob37*]

Unfortunately I'm not putting together a resume to be an NHL GM. I just assess the players I watch for 82 games a year and form opinions. I mean who should they trade for? How on earth am I supposed to know who's available, prices, their interest, ect? That would be as foolish as assuming you know how a 17 year olds NHL career will project 6 months before their draft. I only deal in the players the Maple Leafs employ that already play in the NHL. The tangible assets.

If you're going to suggest they do a better job of building around Kessel (ie - getting him a real #1 center, get a better #1 D-man, get better players for the 2nd-3rd lines etc....) I think you have to have a good idea of who is available and how they can do that.

The issue, I think 100% of Leaf fans would agree with you in THEORY. The problem is a bunch of us have looked at the Leafs cap situation, pending UFA's, and used some basic logic/reasoning and come to the conclusion that what you're suggesting isn't very likely to happen.

If you look at a situation and one "solution" seems/appears very unlikely is that the solution you should pursue?

 

[Stephen]

He doesn't get held to the same standard because his linemates don't produce at the same standard. It may come as a shock, but Wayne wasn't a defensive stud. Top offensive players get a longer leash all around the NHL.

Again, I don't know why you want the Ferrari to pull a boat. That's not it's purpose.

Who says I want a Ferrari? Maybe I want a fleet of pick up trucks?

 

[Leviathan899]

Why does Phil Kessel bother going into his own end? Why don't we have 3 defensively responsible RWers who change every time the Leafs are coming up ice? Similarly, why doesn't Phil just jump back on the bench when the puck goes the other way? I mean, obviously the RW can't change if he's carrying the puck, and I'm sure there would be times when it wouldn't make sense for Phil to come off, but as a general rule of thumb, wouldn't this work? Phil gets more time doing what he's good at and enjoys, and less time doing what he has no interest in doing in the first place.

Because this isn't lacrosse? We would be playing a lot of the game 5 on 4 while we wait for Kessel to change and allow his replacement to get back into the play. Also, if we did this, we should be able to cut around half of Kessel's contract because he literally only has to play half of the ice. This would never, ever happen. What Phil needs to do is just show more commitment to the defensive side of the ice, not a whole lot to ask for really. He doesn't have to go looking for hits and initiate contact to be a more physical player. He could take more hits and contact to make a play, instead of just chipping the puck out to nobody or just making a cross ice prayer pass that gets picked off 75% of the time.

We all know that Kessel has great offensive tools and produces points, but if we want this line to stop spending so much time in their own end, and then come down and have one nice scoring chance off of the rush, him and JVR, have to play tougher along the wall, in the defensive zone and the offensive zone. Kessel is fantastic when he is given time and space, but in a tight checking game he isn't very noticeable, because he isn't willing to play through contact.

 

[Leviathan899]

Kessel has played with James "fly the zone" Van Reimsdyk almost exclusively the past two years. Wouldn't it make more sense to push low down defence on the 50-60 point player? Why do we constantly want to change the one player that does an important job at an elite level?

Yeah JVR does fly the zone quite often, but Kessel does it just as much. It is extremely hard on your defense, and center to consistently move the puck up ice when both of your wingers are hanging out by the red line, looking for that stretch pass to get an odd man rush, or just chip it into the offensive zone. This line HAS to be a rush line, because both of the wingers on this line are horrible at retrieving loose pucks and don't show a ton of compete in chasing down loose pucks.

This is why it's comical watching people say Carlyle's system of being a rush team is horrible, but when your top players are incapable of playing a strong fore checking game and sustain pressure in the offensive zone, you are forced to basically generate off of the rush. One and done chances all game long for this line.

 

[socko]

He should show more of his slapshot.

Phil beats Kane yet again.

Phil Kessel > Patrick Kane

 

[hockeystick89]

Kessel has been pretty damn bad for like 3 weeks, hopefully that goal helps wake him up.

 

[tpc77]

Phils last 5-6 games are epitamy of people's loves for goals/assists vs. Simply playing a solid game. He has been rather lackluster but is producing so it's all good to most, while those who are playing better overall get ridiculed. ( This does speak to Phil gamebreaking ability however)
Nevertheless it makes a good point to those who are only Stat watchers.

 

[7even]

Phils last 5-6 games are epitamy of people's loves for goals/assists vs. Simply playing a solid game. He has been rather lackluster but is producing so it's all good to most, while those who are playing better overall get ridiculed. ( This does speak to Phil gamebreaking ability however)
Nevertheless it makes a good point to those who are only Stat watchers.

I would rather my players produce through slumps than not. Guess I'm a stat watcher.

 

[TNCHL]

Bad game tonight for phil.