Post-Game Talk: Pens 3, Caps 1: The Situation is Very Confused

[billybudd]

Flower is scaring me in a good way.

Crosby is scaring me in a not so good way. It's not his linemates, it's him.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Flower is scaring me in a good way.

Crosby is scaring me in a not so good way. It's not his linemates, it's him.

Linemates and system are definitely playing a big role in Sid's struggles. It's easy to see. You just can't put all the blame on Sid.

 

[radapex]

Linemates and system are definitely playing a big role in Sid's struggles. It's easy to see. You just can't put all the blame on Sid.

Malkin's looked much better than Crosby despite facing the same issues. At some point, we're going to need to see signs of life from Sid himself...

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Malkin's looked much better than Crosby despite facing the same issues. At some point, we're going to need to see signs of life from Sid himself...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Malkin's skillset allows him to produce even when he is denied time and space. Malkin has the size and the skill to create space for himself and his linemates. That is not Crosby's strength.

Look, Sid has not scored in 8 of 9 games this year, going farther back it's 23 of his last 50 he's been held scoreless. This is not a slump, it's a trend. More importantly, it's a trend in which the solution is more complicated than "Sid just needs to be better".

 

[Pancakes]

Crosby's struggles would be more concerning if it was just him. Most of the team can't score. Kessel and Malkin are the only ones producing. The magnifying glass is on Sid because he's Sid but Horny has 0 goals, Perron 0 goals, etc. These are talented players who are not generating anything out there.

In theory Sid should be able to rise above it because he's Sid but when your entire team is struggling to put up goals you have to look at more than just the individuals.

 

[madinsomniac]

Put in a system that stymies creativity then put a bunch of unfamiliar players together in it and that's a recipe for bad play

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

You just can't ignore the effect a coach can have on a player. OV under Hunter had his numbers nosedive. Fleury was a nervous mess in net under Meloche but has looked elite under Bales. Is it really so crazy to believe that Crosby's offensive game has disappeared because Johnston's system doesn't suit him?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Interesting post and maybe you're right. I'm not sure I qualify as an expert with hockey in this new era.

But for you young fans out there I want to let you know what the best player on the ice used to look like 20 or so years ago.

I saw Mario play live I would estimate 30-35 times (I still have all of my ticket stubs so I could actually come up with the exact number!). He scored a goal in all but 2 games. You could say I was just lucky to have that high of a %, but if you look at Mario's stats you would see that he would score in well over 50% of his games.

Different league, different era. I do feel bad for the younger generation though. You will never get the opportunity to see the sport played in such an offensive era.

The greatest game I ever watched was Calgary VS Edmonton Circa the late 80's. I swear it was one odd man rush after another. The crowd was electric, my head at home was buzzing. Goalies actually diving to make incredible saves.

Call me an old fart, call me a casual fan, cool. But I consider myself lucky to have lived through such an exciting era. The only bad part of it was access to the sport was so limited back then. Now I have unfettered access and the sport bores me to the point where I watch storage wars in it's place.

It was exciting because it was sloppy. I'm not sure I want that either.

20 years ago a coach would have never dared put his 4th line out against the opposing team's 1st. Now it's done routinely because all the knucke draggers have been filtered out of the game and you have guys who can skate and keep up everywhere.

There are no rule changes that will fix it. I never liked the idea of rules creating circumstances where a guy shouldn't have to fight for his space. The interference and holding isn't as rampant as people thing.

You want more exciting games? Make tape study illegal and cut practice times in half.

 

[billybudd]

So that's a roster construction problem. Basically my point here is the Penguins have to operate in the league that exists. It does no good blaming the NHL for the Pens lack of success when there are other teams succeeding with speed, skill, and youth.

Tyler Johnson tore up the league last year. Domi looks awesome this year. Those guys aren't big, gritty, in the way kind of players.

If you want to have a conversation about the state of the NHL that's fine, but let's make sure we aren't using that as an excuse for the Pen's **** boring play.

Tampa's best player isn't 5'8 Tyler Johnson; it's 6'6 Vic Hedman. Their second best player is 6'8 Benn Bishop. Johnson also presently has half as many points as 6'3, 240 pound 44 year old Jaromir Jagr.

6'4 Jamie Benn's currently on pace to win his second art ross in a row (and first Richard). He doesn't have any quickness at all. Smart, multifaceted player with a big shot and a decent top speed, but at the end of the day, the basis for his success is size, strength and rambunctiousness. If you're where he thinks he should be, he just throws you out of the way and, unless you're someone like 6'6 Eric Gudbranson or 6'4 Shea Weber, there's nothing you can do about it, apart from engaging in a fight that you'll lose.

6'6 Martin Hanzal has as many points as Domi in less games.

6'4 Max Pacioretty would win the Selke if the season ended today.

6'3 Wayne Simmonds has as many points as 5'10 Claude Giroux, despite probably having 1/10 the skill and struggling with the aftereffects of a major injury


It's true that half the teams over the summer decided that size and brute strength don't matter.

What's not true is that early results have borne that thinking out. In fact, the opposite has happened. Small, young teams like Calgary and Edmonton have struggled, while Detroit treads water. The only bigger team that's struggling right now is Anaheim. Florida, LA, Nashville and St Louis are all chugging along quite comfortably.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

You just can't ignore the effect a coach can have on a player. OV under Hunter had his numbers nosedive. Fleury was a nervous mess in net under Meloche but has looked elite under Bales. Is it really so crazy to believe that Crosby's offensive game has disappeared because Johnston's system doesn't suit him?

Ovechkin's worst season (considering games played) was 38 goals, 27 assists in 78 games. If you think a coaching change will solely get Sid to that level then I guess there's nothing to worry about.

 

[Pancakes]

The good news about Sid's struggles is we can't keep winning with him not scoring, so if he continues to be embarrassingly bad it's only a matter of time before Johnston is gone.

 

[billybudd]

Crosby's struggles would be more concerning if it was just him. Most of the team can't score. Kessel and Malkin are the only ones producing. The magnifying glass is on Sid because he's Sid but Horny has 0 goals, Perron 0 goals, etc. These are talented players who are not generating anything out there.

In theory Sid should be able to rise above it because he's Sid but when your entire team is struggling to put up goals you have to look at more than just the individuals.

It's not the points, it's the decisions and lost battles.

If he was near the boards with a guy close him, it used to be 100% that he'd be able to, at minimum, cycle it to the next guy, but probably get a step and create some separation. Either thing happening now is a rarity. Usually he just gets pinned and the guy that pinned him takes the puck. That's a Sid thing, not an "other people" thing.

I don't see how these ridiculous telegraphed turnovers have anything to do with anyone but him, either. How is it Hornqvist's fault when Sid pulls up at the circle and tries to make a 40 foot pass to him that never had a prayer of getting to him?

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Ovechkin's worst season (considering games played) was 38 goals, 27 assists in 78 games. If you think a coaching change will solely get Sid to that level then I guess there's nothing to worry about.

65 points in 78 games and 38 goals from a guy who is usually a lock for 50g and ppg is a pretty big downstep.

If the Penguins fired MJ and hired the right guy to replace him, I have no doubt Sid's game would get back to what we expect from him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah the Pens as a team right now would be extremely successful if you put them in 2010. The game has evolved a surprising amount over the last 5 years where ultra skilled teams don't work anymore. Just look at the Pens in 2015 vs the Capitals in 2010, the rosters are similar in build and the Capitals did drastically better than the Pens are doing right now. There are no more Dipietro, Huet, Boucher, Leclaire or Roloson caliber starting goalies, hell most backups are better than that group at this point. There aren't any teams with 0 top-4 defensemen like there was in 2009-2010 (the 09-10 Oilers take the cake for worst defense I've ever seen on paper with Souray missing the entire year). Parity around the league has never been higher and goalies have never been better, and offenses haven't adjusted yet. What makes our situation even worse is that not only haven't we adjusted, we're still playing like it's 2010.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

65 points in 78 games and 38 goals from a guy who is usually a lock for 50g and ppg is a pretty big downstep.

If the Penguins fired MJ and hired the right guy to replace him, I have no doubt Sid's game would get back to what we expect from him.

It is a big down step for sure, and I still don't see the way Sid looks that a coaching change would get him to those numbers this year from what we've seen so far.

I know it's early, but even if he had 6 pts in 9 games it's like okay he's off to a slow start. This is **** from Sid, total ****, and no one should sugar coat it otherwise. Like billybud just talked about, there are a lot of situations that happen out there on the ice that have nothing to do with systems. It's Sid losing battles, not going nearly as hard as he should in general, not approaching the net enough, etc. It's either Sid playing a different game for whatever reason, or the supposed best player in the world needs motivated properly, which is unheard of. Either way a lot of it is still on Sid.

This isn't like last year where Sid looked like he might level off to be on par with the rest of the league's stars. This is looking like a precipitous fall from grace.

 

[Pancakes]

It's not the points, it's the decisions and lost battles.

If he was near the boards with a guy close him, it used to be 100% that he'd be able to, at minimum, cycle it to the next guy, but probably get a step and create some separation. Either thing happening now is a rarity. Usually he just gets pinned and the guy that pinned him takes the puck. That's a Sid thing, not an "other people" thing.

I don't see how these ridiculous telegraphed turnovers have anything to do with anyone but him, either. How is it Hornqvist's fault when Sid pulls up at the circle and tries to make a 40 foot pass to him that never had a prayer of getting to him?

He's playing poorly, no question, and some of that is on him, but I think the right coach would have the answers to get him going again.

 

[vyktor]

It's not the points, it's the decisions and lost battles.

If he was near the boards with a guy close him, it used to be 100% that he'd be able to, at minimum, cycle it to the next guy, but probably get a step and create some separation. Either thing happening now is a rarity. Usually he just gets pinned and the guy that pinned him takes the puck. That's a Sid thing, not an "other people" thing.

I don't see how these ridiculous telegraphed turnovers have anything to do with anyone but him, either. How is it Hornqvist's fault when Sid pulls up at the circle and tries to make a 40 foot pass to him that never had a prayer of getting to him?

lol I was thinking about the same play, there's not a system in the world that includes this gem.

 

[Shady Machine]

Tampa's best player isn't 5'8 Tyler Johnson; it's 6'6 Vic Hedman. Their second best player is 6'8 Benn Bishop. Johnson also presently has half as many points as 6'3, 240 pound 44 year old Jaromir Jagr.

6'4 Jamie Benn's currently on pace to win his second art ross in a row (and first Richard). He doesn't have any quickness at all. Smart, multifaceted player with a big shot and a decent top speed, but at the end of the day, the basis for his success is size, strength and rambunctiousness. If you're where he thinks he should be, he just throws you out of the way and, unless you're someone like 6'6 Eric Gudbranson or 6'4 Shea Weber, there's nothing you can do about it, apart from engaging in a fight that you'll lose.

6'6 Martin Hanzal has as many points as Domi in less games.

6'4 Max Pacioretty would win the Selke if the season ended today.

6'3 Wayne Simmonds has as many points as 5'10 Claude Giroux, despite probably having 1/10 the skill and struggling with the aftereffects of a major injury


It's true that half the teams over the summer decided that size and brute strength don't matter.

What's not true is that early results have borne that thinking out. In fact, the opposite has happened. Small, young teams like Calgary and Edmonton have struggled, while Detroit treads water. The only bigger team that's struggling right now is Anaheim. Florida, LA, Nashville and St Louis are all chugging along quite comfortably.

I'm not disagreeing that size and brute strength is important in this NHL, but that's not a valid excuse for the Pen's scoring woes IMO.

Do you blame the Pen's scoring woes on the league?

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

It is a big down step for sure, and I still don't see the way Sid looks that a coaching change would get him to those numbers this year from what we've seen so far.

I know it's early, but even if he had 6 pts in 9 games it's like okay he's off to a slow start. This is **** from Sid, total ****, and no one should sugar coat it otherwise. Like billybud just talked about, there are a lot of situations that happen out there on the ice that have nothing to do with systems. It's Sid losing battles, not going nearly as hard as he should in general, not approaching the net enough, etc. It's either Sid playing a different game for whatever reason, or the supposed best player in the world needs motivated properly, which is unheard of. Either way a lot of it is still on Sid.

This isn't like last year where Sid looked like he might level off to be on par with the rest of the league's stars. This is looking like a precipitous fall from grace.

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. Sid has always had issues with forcing passes. Sid, since returning from the concussion/neck issues, hasn't been crashing the net like he did up until 2010. Even so, Sid has never had trouble scoring like he is right now. We are acting like some of his bad habits are new things and they are not, they just stand out much more because he is not scoring.

I've asked this question countless times and I've yet to get an answer out of anybody. How many times does Sid get the puck with time and space in a game on average this year? It happened once that I can remember last night, unfortunately on the rush where Sid made that terrible pass. It's just not happening frequently enough.

Look, Hornqvist's offense is nowhere to be found. Horny was a 30 goal, 60 point guy on an offensively inept Predators team at one point. Perron can't score, and he's produced on offensively inept Oilers and Blues teams in the past. Sid can't score and he's perhaps the best offensive player of his generation. Are we to believe that all of these guys forgot how to score? It's clear that there is something very wrong with MJ's system and the way he is coaching the team. Maybe firing him doesn't instantly fix all of the issues, but it would damn sure improve matters, of that I have no doubt (assuming the replacement hired is a good choice, of course).

 

[mpp9]

First I've ever heard a coach call Crosby a perimeter player. Lets see how he responds.

 

[billybudd]

I'm not disagreeing that size and brute strength is important in this NHL, but that's not a valid excuse for the Pen's scoring woes IMO.

Do you blame the Pen's scoring woes on the league?

Partially, yes.

 

[Coastal Kev]

It was exciting because it was sloppy. I'm not sure I want that either.

20 years ago a coach would have never dared put his 4th line out against the opposing team's 1st. Now it's done routinely because all the knucke draggers have been filtered out of the game and you have guys who can skate and keep up everywhere.

There are no rule changes that will fix it. I never liked the idea of rules creating circumstances where a guy shouldn't have to fight for his space. The interference and holding isn't as rampant as people thing.

You want more exciting games? Make tape study illegal and cut practice times in half.

I disagree with you on the bolded part with all of my being. Are NHL players much better athletes today?? Absolutely. Are they more skilled at the sport of hockey than players of years gone by??? I know the accepted thought among fans is a resounding yes to that question, but I'm not so sure. Definitely Defensemen are Bigger and Stronger and on average much better skaters. BUT.....

I'm sorry, I see it as great athletes are posing as skilled hockey players. I look at the passing in todays game and I am astounded at some of the simple passes that are missed. Passes that would have been heavily criticized at the Bantam Hockey level back in the day. Rob Scuderi was awarded an assist last night on a pass that was 3 feet behind his D partner on an eventual play that led to Beau's goal.

Are you telling me players today have better hockey IQ? I don't see that either. Maybe it's because they are over coached but I don't see it. All I see from forwards today is put your head down and skate as fast as you can into the opposing zone all the while looking to chip the puck into the corner. Is it beyond reason to think that GM's and Coaches have run skilled players out of the league the same way they have the goons, favoring instead bigger and stronger athletes who can GRIND???

 

[madinsomniac]

I think Crosby is overthinking things... He is best making instinctive moves on the fly, not reading and forcing based off of a gameplan

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Here's my problem with this line of thinking. Sid has always had issues with forcing passes. Sid, since returning from the concussion/neck issues, hasn't been crashing the net like he did up until 2010. Even so, Sid has never had trouble scoring like he is right now. We are acting like some of his bad habits are new things and they are not, they just stand out much more because he is not scoring.

I've asked this question countless times and I've yet to get an answer out of somebody. How many times does Sid get the puck with time and space in a game on average this year? It happened once that I can remember last night, unfortunately on the rush where Sid made that terrible pass. It's just not happening frequently enough.

Look, Hornqvist's offense is nowhere to be found. Horny was a 30 goal, 60 point guy on an offensively inept Predators team at one point. Perron can't score, and he's produced on offensively inept Oilers and Blues teams in the past. Sid can't score and he's perhaps the best offensive player of his generation. Are we to believe that all of these guys forgot how to score? It's clear that there is something very wrong with MJ's system and the way he is coaching the team. Maybe firing him doesn't instantly fix all of the issues, but it would damn sure improve matters, of that I have no doubt (assuming the replacement hired is a good choice, of course).

I think it's a combination of a lot of things, and a coaching change isn't a catch all based upon how they're playing. The staff sucks. Okay fine. That is the dominant factor in Sid literally on pace for TEN GOALS? The players still have to play, and Sid has been mostly lifeless so far 9 games in.

I think we're excusing Sid way too much here. Is he not talented enough to still go out there and produce at a reasonable rate? To look like he gives a crap every game? If he was still as talented as ever there wouldn't be a system in the world that could account for this kind of lack of production. We're basically saying that Sidney Crosby, THE Sidney Crosby, is completely at the mercy of the system the coaches put in place. His production is 100% contingent upon it. I don't see how anyone can accept that.

 

[Malkin112*]

i disagree with you on the bolded part with all of my being. Are nhl players much better athletes today?? Absolutely. Are they more skilled at the sport of hockey than players of years gone by??? I know the accepted thought among fans is a resounding yes to that question, but i'm not so sure. Definitely defensemen are bigger and stronger and on average much better skaters. But.....

I'm sorry, i see it as great athletes are posing as skilled hockey players. I look at the passing in todays game and i am astounded at some of the simple passes that are missed. Passes that would have been heavily criticized at the bantam hockey level back in the day. Rob scuderi was awarded an assist last night on a pass that was 3 feet behind his d partner on an eventual play that led to beau's goal.

Are you telling me players today have better hockey iq? I don't see that either. Maybe it's because they are over coached but i don't see it. All i see from forwards today is put your head down and skate as fast as you can into the opposing zone all the while looking to chip the puck into the corner. Is it beyond reason to think that gm's and coaches have run skilled players out of the league the same way they have the goons, favoring instead bigger and stronger athletes who can grind???

There is much more talent in the league than 20 years ago.