Post-Game Talk: Pens 2, Preds 1 (OT) - Flower Power

[MrBurghundy]

Where the heck are you going to find a legit partner for Letang? That's my point. I'd love an actual upgrade on defense, but teams aren't really pawning off top pairing dmen for David Perron. Perron is going to net you like, a 30 year old Michalek or something. Does that help? Sure, but it just further blocks some of the young guys and the upgrade is marginal.

The only young guy that's really left is Pouliot though, and I'm not sold on him yet until he fixes his issues in WBS. Clendening might be a diamond in the rough though, and he should be given a chance to play in the meantime.

Regardless of what happens, I don't want Scuderi or Lovejoy playing on this lineup in the playoffs. Bringing in a defensemen solves one of those problems. Letting Pouliot and Clendening fight for that last spot isn't the worst thing.

 

[Shady Machine]

Yeah that's what they have to do in the meantime because there is no other choice. If Perron, in a package, gets you somebody that fits that role though, I'd rather have that given the knowledge that he might not be here next year regardless of how well he plays because of the players we already have and the players that could replace him.

Gotcha. I didn't mean to be argumentative, I just don't think it's realistic. We already don't have a 1st and I'm not moving Sprong or Pouliot unless it's for a ridiculous overpayment. We need Sundqvist. So what else do we have asset wise?

They are really in a tough bind. I mean if someone wanted to give us a youngish legit top 4 guy for Perron and Clendening, I'd be stoked. It seems really unlikely.

 

[Shady Machine]

The only young guy that's really left is Pouliot though, and I'm not sold on him yet until he fixes his issues in WBS. Clendening might be a diamond in the rough though, and he should be given a chance to play in the meantime.

Regardless of what happens, I don't want Scuderi or Lovejoy playing on this lineup in the playoffs. Bringing in a defensemen solves one of those problems. Letting Pouliot and Clendening fight for that last spot isn't the worst thing.

Will this team even make the playoffs? Is it worth trading Pouliot for another shortish term upgrade only to see the Pens bow out early again?

 

[Shady Machine]

That very well might be the reality of the situation we've found ourselves in, but it's getting close to crunch time with Sid and Geno being franchise-carrying guys.

I'd hate to lose Sprong, but I'd package something around Pouliot+ for the type of long-term 2nd pairing guy we need. I really don't think Pouliot's gonna light the world on fire offensively like a lot of people think, let alone also being solid defensively.

We have the guys to run a competent PP, so keeping DP just to QB the PP is not the right choice imo. Especially when there's no way in Hell he bumps Letang off the top unit, regardless of the performance of each player or the potential in said spot. This organization just isn't gonna concede the fact that Letang sucks on the PP, and he'll be kept on the top unit forever. DP's only ever gonna get 2nd PP time.

We do? The PP has been brutal for almost a year and Letang is a major part of that. IF Pouliot can be a legit PP QB, this team is probably 6-2 instead of 4-4. I'm not pinning those loses specifically on Letang, but the PP is killing this team right now.

The common denominator in all of this is that the coach blows. Until that situation is remedied, I'm not making another major trade.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Will this team even make the playoffs? Is it worth trading Pouliot for another shortish term upgrade only to see the Pens bow out early again?

Then find a long-term option. If a package centered around Kapanen can land us Kessel at a reduced price, I'm sure we can put something together around Pouliot+ to land a good #2/3 defenseman.

I realize the Kessel situation was pretty unique, and a player of his caliber would normally fetch much more than he got, but still... Pouliot, Sprong and Murray are our only legit blue chip prospects, and I'm not moving Sprong or Murray.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't even think putting in a real PPQB over Letang on the PP would make that big of a difference, certainly not 2 wins worth. I don't think Letang is the biggest issue on the PP right now, I think Crosby is more of an issue if we're talking purely about players. Other than zone entries (which is a systematic issue), I think Crosby's constant attempts to telegraph passes through the slot is what is killing us most.

BTW, if it would be possible, I'd be completely on board with doing something like Pouliot for Vatanen. Although I'm not sure the Ducks would do it right now, I think they would consider it after the season with the impending raises for Despres, Lindholm, Andersen (who's probably going to be traded tbh), Rakell and Sekac.

 

[Shady Machine]

Then find a long-term option. If a package centered around Kapanen can land us Kessel at a reduced price, I'm sure we can put something together around Pouliot+ to land a good #2/3 defenseman.

I realize the Kessel situation was pretty unique, and a player of his caliber would normally fetch much more than he got, but still... Pouliot, Sprong and Murray are our only legit blue chip prospects, and I'm not moving Sprong or Murray.

I'm not moving any of them (unless overpayment but that should be obvious by now)

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't even think putting in a real PPQB over Letang on the PP would make that big of a difference, certainly not 2 wins worth. I don't think Letang is the biggest issue on the PP right now, I think Crosby is more of an issue if we're talking purely about players. Other than zone entries (which is a systematic issue), I think Crosby's constant attempts to telegraph passes through the slot is what is killing us most.

BTW, if it would be possible, I'd be completely on board with doing something like Pouliot for Vatanen. Although I'm not sure the Ducks would do it right now, I think they would consider it after the season with the impending raises for Despres, Lindholm, Andersen (who's probably going to be traded tbh), Rakell and Sekac.

Yeah I'd do Pouliot for Vatanen (I'm the one that started the "is Vatanen available" talks on here), but I would think you'd need a decent plus. Perron+Pouliot for Vatanen? That's too rich for me and Anaheim probably balks at moving Vatanen until this summer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I'd do Pouliot for Vatanen (I'm the one that started the "is Vatanen available" talks on here), but I would think you'd need a decent plus. Perron+Pouliot for Vatanen? That's too rich for me and Anaheim probably balks at moving Vatanen until this summer.

The deal I've been advocating is Perron and Pouliot for Vatanen and Sekac. I think that's a pretty fair deal straight across. The only issue Ducks fans that responded to that had was that the Ducks are also shallow in LHS on the wings and trading Sekac (a LHS) for Perron (a RHS) doesn't help that.

 

[Shady Machine]

The deal I've been advocating is Perron and Pouliot for Vatanen and Sekac. I think that's a pretty fair deal straight across. The only issue Ducks fans that responded to that had was that the Ducks are also shallow in LHS on the wings and trading Sekac (a LHS) for Perron (a RHS) doesn't help that.

Yeah I'd probably do that trade. Sekac is fast and has some upside. Vatanen is basically what we hope Pouliot will be in 2 years.

I still think that has to be a trade for the off season for Anaheim to be overly excited about it.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'm not moving any of them (unless overpayment but that should be obvious by now)

I don't want to. I'm not clamoring to just dump one of them, but something has to be done in order to fix the blueline imo. It's severely flawed, and while it's not our only issue (deadweight in Scuderi/Lovejoy/Kunitz, coaching, PP), it's a big one.

I'm sure it's not gonna be an easy or quick fix, so JR had better have been working the phones for weeks now. It's not going to get any better moving forward, so the sooner he handles it, the better.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Gotcha. I didn't mean to be argumentative, I just don't think it's realistic. We already don't have a 1st and I'm not moving Sprong or Pouliot unless it's for a ridiculous overpayment. We need Sundqvist. So what else do we have asset wise?

They are really in a tough bind. I mean if someone wanted to give us a youngish legit top 4 guy for Perron and Clendening, I'd be stoked. It seems really unlikely.

Well I'm not moving Sprong. That's for sure. I'd definitely move Pouliot though if it upgrades our top 4 for a while. I don't really think all that highly of Pouliot's defense to think he'll ever be a top 4 guy on this team. I mean I'd love to be wrong about that. So to me trading Perron with Pouliot isn't all that risky of a move. One guy who probably won't be here next season, and a guy who hasn't really shown he can master his own zone enough to play in the top 4. All for help in an area of need because we don't have any more defensive prospects left to wait for.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Will this team even make the playoffs? Is it worth trading Pouliot for another shortish term upgrade only to see the Pens bow out early again?

Well any trade I'd want the Pens to make, isn't one for a rental anyway, so yeah, I'd say it would be worth it.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well I'm not moving Sprong. That's for sure. I'd definitely move Pouliot though if it upgrades our top 4 for a while. I don't really think all that highly of Pouliot's defense to think he'll ever be a top 4 guy on this team. I mean I'd love to be wrong about that. So to me trading Perron with Pouliot isn't all that risky of a move. One guy who probably won't be here next season, and a guy who hasn't really shown he can master his own zone enough to play in the top 4. All for help in an area of need because we don't have any more defensive prospects left to wait for.

What age of defenseman are you getting in return and how many years left on their deal? I know you don't have the answers to all these questions but they are important if you are trading a young guy still on his ELC. The common denominator on most contenders is a mix of young, cheap talent mixed in their star players and vets. If you move Pouliot, you lose another cheap young contributor.

I just don't think it's smart asset management and I'm not ready to see JR mortgage even more of the future for now. Especially not with this coaching staff.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I wouldn't mind trying to find a defense partner for Letang, but it would have to be someone like Jeff Beukeboom (a non-top-4 D-man who became a dependable partner for a superstar in Brian Leetch).

I think a more realistic option would be a partner for Maatta, then figure out which of Cole and Dumoulin work best with Letang. The other (eventually) plays with Pouliot.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Yeah I'd do Pouliot for Vatanen (I'm the one that started the "is Vatanen available" talks on here), but I would think you'd need a decent plus. Perron+Pouliot for Vatanen? That's too rich for me and Anaheim probably balks at moving Vatanen until this summer.

But is Vatanen really that much better defensively than DP was even for his stint with LJ last year? I suppose minimally, but he's still not a guy that can take tough matchups for the forseeable future. The best chance we have at rounding out our top 4 is Maatta and Dumo coming on during the season and growing into those spots.

Unless you want one of them sitting in the pressbox when expiring contract Hamhuis takes their spot and we lose in the 1st round of the playoffs again because of MJ, Scuds, LJ, etc.

The mistake we've been making, and are in danger of making again, is thinking we are close to being legit SCF contenders with this roster and coaching staff, which we are not. So why don't we get guys like Sprong, Clendening, Pouliot, Sundqvist, and a Wilson/Rust some actual NHL experience and see we what we've got, and see how far they can take us. At the very least it makes us a better team next year when we can buy out Scuds, LJ will be gone, etc.

 

[mpp9]

I think you could find a D-man better than Cole by giving up a roster forward or two we don't need. Especially if Sprong sticks around and Fehr nails down a spot on LW.

 

[MrBurghundy]

What age of defenseman are you getting in return and how many years left on their deal? I know you don't have the answers to all these questions but they are important if you are trading a young guy still on his ELC. The common denominator on most contenders is a mix of young, cheap talent mixed in their star players and vets. If you move Pouliot, you lose another cheap young contributor.

I just don't think it's smart asset management and I'm not ready to see JR mortgage even more of the future for now. Especially not with this coaching staff.

I think our cap savings will come from young players eventually filling out our bottom 6 forward group. Sundqvist, Rust, Wilson, Sprong, Simon, and even Bennett should all be in the NHL hopefully by next season. All should be on cheap deals.

In the end, Pouliot might be a cheap contributor, but I think it's negligible given the players listed above, and I'd rather have somebody I can actually trust in his place.

Obviously I don't know who'd be available like you said. I'm just saying what I'd like to see the Pens explore. If they don't find the right dance partner, then don't make any moves.

Finally, I'm not saying to mortgage the future. I don't want them making any move for some aging veteran on an expiring contract. So in light of that, it's hard to say they are mortgaging the future.

 

[DegenX]

Mentioned this in the other thread, but it was right around the time Farnham got claimed ...

Riptide has mentioned a Russell for Perron swap. There are rumors he's available, so I ran the numbers. A straight up swap would leave us with $1.6M in cap space. That's without moving anyone else. Both players are UFA at season's end.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I know he didn't score, but Perron played very well last game. Competed hard, protected the puck well, and created some chances.

If he can bring that kind of performance regularly, I wouldn't want to trade him.

 

[Shady Machine]

But is Vatanen really that much better defensively than DP was even for his stint with LJ last year? I suppose minimally, but he's still not a guy that can take tough matchups for the forseeable future. The best chance we have at rounding out our top 4 is Maatta and Dumo coming on during the season and growing into those spots.

Unless you want one of them sitting in the pressbox when expiring contract Hamhuis takes their spot and we lose in the 1st round of the playoffs again because of MJ, Scuds, LJ, etc.

The mistake we've been making, and are in danger of making again, is thinking we are close to being legit SCF contenders with this roster and coaching staff, which we are not. So why don't we get guys like Sprong, Clendening, Pouliot, Sundqvist, and a Wilson/Rust some actual NHL experience and see we what we've got, and see how far they can take us. At the very least it makes us a better team next year when we can buy out Scuds, LJ will be gone, etc.

That's my preference as well.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But is Vatanen really that much better defensively than DP was even for his stint with LJ last year? I suppose minimally, but he's still not a guy that can take tough matchups for the forseeable future. The best chance we have at rounding out our top 4 is Maatta and Dumo coming on during the season and growing into those spots.

Unless you want one of them sitting in the pressbox when expiring contract Hamhuis takes their spot and we lose in the 1st round of the playoffs again because of MJ, Scuds, LJ, etc.

The mistake we've been making, and are in danger of making again, is thinking we are close to being legit SCF contenders with this roster and coaching staff, which we are not. So why don't we get guys like Sprong, Clendening, Pouliot, Sundqvist, and a Wilson/Rust some actual NHL experience and see we what we've got, and see how far they can take us. At the very least it makes us a better team next year when we can buy out Scuds, LJ will be gone, etc.

The big boost from trading Pouliot for Vatanen is the fact that Vatanen is a top-4 RHD, he's what we hope Pouliot develops into and he'd be a huge boost to our awful PP. A top-4 long term of Dumoulin-Letang and Maatta-Vatanen is extremely solid, adding a bottom pair of Cole-Clendening makes that a very deep D group. I think the big reason I'd be for that deal is that Vatanen is a RD though, it just makes everything fall into place much nicer IMO.

I'm all for giving Pouliot time to develop, but if I could pick between Pouliot and a right handed fully developed Pouliot right now, I'd pick the latter with no hesitation.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The big boost from trading Pouliot for Vatanen is the fact that Vatanen is a top-4 RHD, he's what we hope Pouliot develops into and he'd be a huge boost to our awful PP. A top-4 long term of Dumoulin-Letang and Maatta-Vatanen is extremely solid, adding a bottom pair of Cole-Clendening makes that a very deep D group. I think the big reason I'd be for that deal is that Vatanen is a RD though, it just makes everything fall into place much nicer IMO.

I'm all for giving Pouliot time to develop, but if I could pick between Pouliot and a right handed fully developed Pouliot right now, I'd pick the latter with no hesitation.

Well I would too, but I am assuming we would need to make a significant add to DP to get Vatanen. And I don't necessarily consider him a top 4 D, he's paired with Stoner mostly, and he's their Scuds. Plus Vatanen makes DP look big.

 

[Shrimper]

 

[DesertPenguin]

Mentioned this in the other thread, but it was right around the time Farnham got claimed ...

Riptide has mentioned a Russell for Perron swap. There are rumors he's available, so I ran the numbers. A straight up swap would leave us with $1.6M in cap space. That's without moving anyone else. Both players are UFA at season's end.

I wouldn't hate this move because it fills a hole, but obviously I'd rather we keep Perron, who we know has produced in the past despite his current funk, and move Kunitz, who is rolling down a hill he will never climb back up again.

Obviously Kunitz doesn't get you a guy like Russell though.