Post-Game Talk: Pens 2, Leafs 1 - Thanks Flower. Thanks Geno.

[Pancakes]

Honestly I doubt his effectiveness even in a third line role. What, exactly, is he going to do, there? Will he be the "offensive consciousness" of that line... with his big 1 ES point in 28 games and general half-step-off of every developing play? Is he going to help with the dirty work suddenly once his linemates are switched? Seems doubtful and if he doesn't but is expected to... who is going to tell him differently? The sackless coaching staff?

I'm coming more and more around on the fact that Scuderi isn't the only guy who needs straight-up jettisoned for basically whatever the team can get.

The idea would be he'd fatigue less with less minutes and might be able to keep his game simpler playing with less skilled players.

Who knows how that would work out. Johnston has never even thought to try it so we don't know.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah... minimizing the damage he can do to the team certainly makes some sense. And honestly, like I keep saying... I almost don't care what it takes at this point... so long as he's pulled off of L1.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

You've got the whole thing exactly backwards.

Ultimately, in the win/loss column, raw production out of context doesn't matter. At all. You don't win a game by scoring a lot of goals. You win a game by scoring more than you give up. Scoring line, checking line, fourth line, first line doesn't make a difference. Every line either wins its minutes, stalemates or loses them. While it's self-evident that teams should seek to win minutes with a first line, that does not change that stalemating is far preferable to losing them.

If a Nail Yakupov line scores 40 goals on the season, while giving up north of 70, not only is it not helping the Oilers, it is killing them. You might win a half-dozen more games if you just sent out three guys who could play 15 minutes a night to a tie.

Kunitz is stalemating. That's not what you want. Ideally you reduce his minutes in favor of someone that has a better chance of winning his minutes. It is not clear that we have that in even 1 left wing right now, let alone 2.

Plotnikov, so far, has a 2 not-good games, 1 good game, 1 benched game, and 1 game where Liam Neeson was killing his shady ass countrymen. In a 4 game career, that's not alarming, but there's nothing about what he's done that says "get him in there for 20 minutes against the other teams' best D." In fact, his game only improved when we got him away from the other teams' best D.

Sprong isn't going to go on the first line. I'd like to see him tried (not that I know it would work), but it's not happening, unfortunately, so there's no point griping about it.

If Eric Fehr comes back and looks even half way decent in his first game without hurting himself, there's a case to be made to sub him in for the second game. A good case. We already know he can finish. We already know he can play defense. It stands to reason he could score more than Kunitz is without hurting you the other direction even if he has zero chemistry with the other two. Same with Dupuis. We know he can play defense. He can't finish, but he gets to so many danger spots that pucks go in on volume shooting. They're both practicing, so it's only a matter of time until they're back.

Unfortunately, they're not cleared yet, so short of putting Cullen on the first line and letting Rust and friends get crushed worse than any marginal improvement you might see on line 1, there's little to nothing that can be done about Kunitz at present.




The guy isn't even skating, let alone practicing and there's no timetable for his return. How are we sitting here asking for him to be subbed in for some other guy? He's on freaking IR.

Stalemating? He's killing a line containing 2 of the best offensive players in this generation of nhl'ers. His defense is not nearly good enough to make up for his lack of production and the negative effect he has on Crosby and Kessel.

 

[IcedCapp]

Stalemating? He's killing a line containing 2 of the best offensive players in this generation of nhl'ers. His defense is not nearly good enough to make up for his lack of production and the negative effect he has on Crosby and Kessel.

Billy is talking about +/-

He's reducing the 1st line's role to nothing more than "don't get scored on"

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

NICE! Someone forwarded my tweet to the canadian media guys!

Woot!

Someone should forward that tweet to MJ to let him know the national media is on to his shenanigans.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Billy is talking about +/-

He's reducing the 1st line's role to nothing more than "don't get scored on"

Perhaps that's the top priority of this team's brilliant coaching staff, as well?

The stalwart Crosby, Kessel, Kunitz shutdown line. No one will ever see that coming! What a twist! They're expecting that line to run other teams around their own zone all game and be possession/scoring monsters... HA! You'd THINK that, wouldn't you?!? We here at the Penguins hockey club do things a little differently. The Penguins Way™

 

[AjaxTelamon]

The idea would be he'd fatigue less with less minutes and might be able to keep his game simpler playing with less skilled players.

Who knows how that would work out. Johnston has never even thought to try it so we don't know.

Johnston had him on L3 last year and the line worked very well for a game or two, and then he was back on L1.

 

[mpp9]

Kunitz can't maintain possession for shit, but Im a little surprised Sid and Kessel can't make much happen off the rush. Disappointing, really. It's early though. I want to see that duo for a few more games. Malkin is finally shooting more, I wouldn't want him to go back to passing off constantly with Kessel.

 

[Pancakes]

Kunitz can't maintain possession for shit, but Im a little surprise Sid and Kessel can't make much happen off the rush. Disappointing, really. It's early though. I want to see that duo for a few more games. Malkin is finally shooting more, I wouldn't want him to go back to passing off constantly with Kessel.

Sid has been gassing himself out doing all the work. He goes back and helps the d then gets the puck up either to Kunitz who makes a bad pass/turns it over or to Kessel who skates it a little bit and then gets challenged so he passes to Kunitz who promptly turns it over.

Very very rarely Sid catches up to KK before the puck is turned over and they maybe get a chance or two.

Rush chances are non existent for that line because Sid can't cheat up ice since he has to be the defensive conscience on that line.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Honestly I doubt his effectiveness even in a third line role. What, exactly, is he going to do, there? Will he be the "offensive consciousness" of that line... with his big 1 ES point in 28 games and general half-step-off of every developing play? Is he going to help with the dirty work suddenly once his linemates are switched? Seems doubtful and if he doesn't but is expected to... who is going to tell him differently? The sackless coaching staff?

I'm coming more and more around on the fact that Scuderi isn't the only guy who needs straight-up jettisoned for basically whatever the team can get.

Welcome to the club, it's not fun.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sid has been gassing himself out doing all the work. He goes back and helps the d then gets the puck up either to Kunitz who makes a bad pass/turns it over or to Kessel who skates it a little bit and then gets challenged so he passes to Kunitz who promptly turns it over.

Very very rarely Sid catches up to KK before the puck is turned over and they maybe get a chance or two.

Rush chances are non existent for that line because Sid can't cheat up ice since he has to be the defensive conscience on that line.

That's a system thing. MJ wants all the centers coming low to support the D on the breakout. That said, it should be Sid skating the puck up and feeding it to the open guy. You are correct that Kunitz has been turning it over before Sid can get it back.

Malkin is also coming low but he just takes the puck and goes.

 

[Jacob]

I would not even count on Kunitz to be a 4th liner, at this point. I think he'd be even worse, because he'd be required to have possession of the puck more often playing with less skilled players, and wouldn't have passing options like Crosby and Kessel, skilled guys that are great at getting open and receiving less-than-perfect passes. 4th liners can't do that.

9 points in 40 games is a Jack Skille-like pace and that's playing a ton with highly skilled linemates. So his production would probably be cut in half on a 4th line, or worse.

He's done and nobody wants him. It's just a question of whether he and Scuderi get buried in the minors or bought out in the summer.

 

[Pancakes]

That's a system thing. MJ wants all the centers coming low to support the D on the breakout. That said, it should be Sid skating the puck up and feeding it to the open guy. You are correct that Kunitz has been turning it over before Sid can get it back.

Malkin is also coming low but he just takes the puck and goes.

And that works fine for Malkin. Sid is not built to carry the puck all the way up the ice and knife through defenders. That's not his game. Where Sid is at his best is when he gets the puck near the other d's blueline and gets to use his quick burst to power by defenders.

Dan Bylsma's system was actually perfect for how Sid likes to play. It just sucked for all our other lines.

Sid's line should be all about stretching out the other team with long bomb passes and then using their quick speed to attack.

Malkin's line should be all about Malkin coming down deep into the d-zone and then taking the puck up ice and letting Geno push back ds with his stickhandling and strength.


MJ's system works okay for Malkin, but it's terrible for Sid. Each line should have their own style and not be so rigidly systematic about how they play.

 

[Shady Machine]

I would not even count on Kunitz to be a 4th liner, at this point. I think he'd be even worse, because he'd be required to have possession of the puck more often playing with less skilled players, and wouldn't have passing options like Crosby and Kessel, skilled guys that are great at getting open and receiving less-than-perfect passes. 4th liners can't do that.

Disagree. His role as a 4th liner would be to not get scored on and chip in once in a blue moon. He is capable of doing that. Now he'd be a crazy overpaid 4th liner, but one nonetheless.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Sid has been gassing himself out doing all the work. He goes back and helps the d then gets the puck up either to Kunitz who makes a bad pass/turns it over or to Kessel who skates it a little bit and then gets challenged so he passes to Kunitz who promptly turns it over.

Very very rarely Sid catches up to KK before the puck is turned over and they maybe get a chance or two.

Rush chances are non existent for that line because Sid can't cheat up ice since he has to be the defensive conscience on that line.

That's something Dupuis would actually help with, and he also does a lot of the little interference, sets picks, and puts pressure on the D in the offensive zone to cause turnovers. Basically everything Kunitz does not do. And even though Dupuis hand grenades the puck too much, he's still very effective away from the puck. Something Kunitz really is not.

Kunitz right now is just so easy to play against. He's the anti Hornqvist. And though the consensus seems to be that PH and Geno don't have a lot of chemistry, it was PH winning a board battle at our blue line and sending the puck up to Geno that got us our first goal the other night.

 

[mpp9]

Kunitz was fine on the third line last year. He doesn't have the reflexes for a top 6 role anymore. But with a plodder like Bonino? He'd be fine. Not awesome, but fine.

Winnik's an NHL player and he had terrible numbers with Sid.

 

[Jacob]

Winnik can put up 30 points on a 3rd line. Kunitz can't muster 20 on a 1st line.

 

[mpp9]

Winnik got outplayed by Kunitz down the stretch last season though. I bet if you put Kunitz on another team's third line and Winnik with Sid, the results would be about the same.

The problem is we're paying Kunitz to be better than that. 3.85 mil ain't third liner money. I never agreed with that opinion around here. Hornqvist is our second best winger and one of the more productive guys at his position in the league and he's paid a few hundred k more.

 

[Zero Pucks]

Josh Yohe went "Really?" to my Kunitz re-tweet!

Good God.

What a buffoon.

 

[systemsgo]

NICE! Someone forwarded my tweet to the canadian media guys!

Woot!

Got to say I'm surprised Scuderi has 3 points. But it's a great time to be a fan and watch 1 point Kunitz penciled in our top 6 permanently

 

[Ugene Magic]

That's something Dupuis would actually help with, and he also does a lot of the little interference, sets picks, and puts pressure on the D in the offensive zone to cause turnovers. Basically everything Kunitz does not do. And even though Dupuis hand grenades the puck too much, he's still very effective away from the puck. Something Kunitz really is not.

Kunitz right now is just so easy to play against. He's the anti Hornqvist. And though the consensus seems to be that PH and Geno don't have a lot of chemistry, it was PH winning a board battle at our blue line and sending the puck up to Geno that got us our first goal the other night.

My question here is how does Dupuis stop Crosby and Kessel from having pucks roll off their sticks, make terrible reads and overpass and flub shots or just not take shots that are there for them?

I'm not saying Dupuis wouldn't work there (Sid's LW) He just hasn't been there in forever, and it doesn't fix what Crosby and Kessel seem to be failing at either.

People seem to be of the notion Kunitz is the only entity dragging down that line.

I think all three are forcing things.

Play a simple game, pucks to the net. Rebounds. Some things are not happening enough.

I said the best of the three in another thread has been, Kessel. Other then him passing up shots, losing board battles are a given, but he has been as advertised.

It's game 5 going on game 6. You can't have all three having issues with the puck or making brain-fart mistakes/decisions and have a functioning line producing.

They need time, 5 games is only 5 games.

If it is continuing, changes should be made however/whomever.

 

[Fordy]

My question here is how does Dupuis stop Crosby and Kessel from having pucks roll off their sticks, make terrible reads and overpass and flub shots or just not take shots that are there for them?

I'm not saying Dupuis wouldn't work there (Sid's LW) He just hasn't been there in forever, and it doesn't fix what Crosby and Kessel seem to be failing at either.

People seem to be of the notion Kunitz is the only entity dragging down that line.

I think all three are forcing things.

Play a simple game, pucks to the net. Rebounds. Some things are not happening enough.

I said the best of the three in another thread has been, Kessel. Other then him passing up shots, losing board battles are a given, but he has been as advertised.

It's game 5 going on game 6. You can't have all three having issues with the puck or making brain-fart mistakes/decisions and have a functioning line producing.

They need time, 5 games is only 5 games.

If it is continuing, changes should be made however/whomever.

dupuis will at least forecheck and be in better positions more often. that alone will take significant pressure off those two and allow kessel to do a bit more of what he does best and give sid actual options instead of ones he has to imagine through 3 defenders. he will still actively hurt them in other ways but at least he will contribute SOMETHING at all

 

[Shady Machine]

My question here is how does Dupuis stop Crosby and Kessel from having pucks roll off their sticks, make terrible reads and overpass and flub shots or just not take shots that are there for them?

I'm not saying Dupuis wouldn't work there (Sid's LW) He just hasn't been there in forever, and it doesn't fix what Crosby and Kessel seem to be failing at either.

People seem to be of the notion Kunitz is the only entity dragging down that line.

I think all three are forcing things.

Play a simple game, pucks to the net. Rebounds. Some things are not happening enough.

I said the best of the three in another thread has been, Kessel. Other then him passing up shots, losing board battles are a given, but he has been as advertised.

It's game 5 going on game 6. You can't have all three having issues with the puck or making brain-fart mistakes/decisions and have a functioning line producing.

They need time, 5 games is only 5 games.

If it is continuing, changes should be made however/whomever.

You aren't correctly identifying all of the issues on the line if you think that flubbing pucks and forcing things are their only problem.

 

[IcedCapp]

Guys, I'm not irrationally and unconditionally defending Rob Scuderi, but how can you criticize his game when Olli Maatta may have a recurrence?!?!?

 

[Corvidae]

He's done and nobody wants him. It's just a question of whether he and Scuderi get buried in the minors or bought out in the summer.

This is the Penguins so I expect neither. The fact that this is still a discussion show how terribly this organization is run. JR had one import thing to do this offseason: dump the dead weight. He failed. Add whoever, fire whoever, it doesn't matter as long as there're are rotting carcasses gobbling ice time, roster spots, and cap space.