Penguins "to KC/staying in Pitt/not sold/whatever" thread

[kdb209]

I will put my business knowledge and acumen up against any sportswriter (with apologies and appropriate props to kdb).

Were you referring to moi??? If so, I will graciously accept the props, but ...

You are the second poster here to have accused me of being a member of the Fourth Estate - an honor I will have to sadly decline.

Methinks you (and others) may have confused me with kpd (aka Kevin Paul Dupont of the Boston Globe aka hubofhockey) perhaps.

 

[BlueAndWhite]

Quebec City and Winnipeg don't have any corporate support that comes close to either of those 2 companies.

I'm not going to address the driving issues for now (still have bloody Christmas shopping to do), but I agree with gscarpenter's take on the situation. You are greatly exaggerating the "pull" of the surrounding areas plus the "ease" with which people will make the trek (please keep in mind that it's one thing to drive an hour for a job that pays you thousands annually and another to drive an hour for an NHL game on a regular basis).
As well you keep talking about the "potential viewing" market, a team in Winnipeg will have all of Manitoba (which isn't much, but it's still more than the numbers you are suggesting for the expansive area that is K-W/Guelph/Cambridge.)

You are DEAD wrong on the corporate support and presence in Winnipeg vs. K-W.

Winnipeg is home to CanWest Global, Great-West LifeCo and MTS (all of which are "bigger" than RIM and Toyota Canada Manufacturing ).

When you compare the rest of the private sector, you will see that Winnipeg actually not only has more companies but largers ones as well.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Vegas will get a team soon (most likely the NBA) - my guess the Malouf bros moving the Sacramento Kings. The biggest issue is an arena. I don't think that the league will have any issues with a team in Vegas - hell, they're having their All Star Game in Vegas this year.

Houston sharing an arena is a non issue. The only potential owner in Houston is Les Alexander, owner of the Houston Rockets and the lease on the Toyota Center. He would just be splitting revenues with himself.

The Rose Garden is very available. Paul Allen is out of the picture and the current ownership group has many NHL connections and is looking to fill dates. An NHL team would be at worst #2 tenant in the Rose Garden (behind the T-Blazers), but the Paul Allen & the Blazers now have little/no say over Rose Garden scheduling. He no longer controls the building and is just a tenant with a really bad lease.

I thought Stern said that gambling was an impediment for the NBA going to Las Vegas long-term ... I'll have to dig that comment out. I also didn't say that sharing an arena would be a problem for Houston - just pointing it out. If Alexander is going to own the NHL team, then there's no problem; if Lemieux decides to move from Pittsburgh, does he choose to sell to someone in the new city or not? That makes a huge difference in whether Kansas City or Houston becomes the favorite.

Thanks for bringing me back up to speed on Portland, though - I still think they're a longshot in all of this.

 

[st5801]

In my opinion, Kansas City, Houston, Oklahoma City, and Portland are all possible. All four have new arenas with an acceptable capacity. Portland's arena is a little bit older (mid-90's) so it might not be quite as attractive as the other three. Kansas City has already had a failed team, and there are questions about how attractive the arena lease actually is. Houston has an AHL team that draws 5,800 on average, which is well above the league average.

Everyone loves the idea of moving to Las Vegas, but it isn't going to happen unless an arena plan is done within the next couple months. Even if it happens, moving a team there and playing in the old Thomas & Mack Center for years until the new arena is built is not going to be attractive, especially when you have the four cities mentioned above with much newer arenas. Hartford (no arena), Winnipeg (too small arena), Quebec (too old arena), Kitchener (no arena), Hamilton (too old arena), Seattle (new arena plans aren't going anywhere) are long shots at best.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Were you referring to moi??? If so, I will graciously accept the props, but ...

You are the second poster here to have accused me of being a member of the Fourth Estate - an honor I will have to sadly decline.

Methinks you (and others) may have confused me with kpd (aka Kevin Paul Dupont of the Boston Globe aka hubofhockey) perhaps.

I Did!

My apologies for slandering you thusly.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Calling your golf tournament "argument" Pejorative Slured is not the same as name-calling.

As for your grown-up comment, laughable. Maturity and intelligence do not come by way of time alone, as you have clearly proven.

Thanks for making this personal though, a very "grown-up" way of responding.

I would suggest that referring to someone's thoughts as "Pejorative Slured" makes it personal. A preposterous try at painting yourself as the aggrieved party.

As for your "maturity and intelligence" comment, it is a little late to try to come up with what you probably are attempting to constitute a dignified reply.

Just go away. Please.

 

[Egil]

I'm not going to address the driving issues for now (still have bloody Christmas shopping to do), but I agree with gscarpenter's take on the situation. You are greatly exaggerating the "pull" of the surrounding areas plus the "ease" with which people will make the trek (please keep in mind that it's one thing to drive an hour for a job that pays you thousands annually and another to drive an hour for an NHL game on a regular basis).
As well you keep talking about the "potential viewing" market, a team in Winnipeg will have all of Manitoba (which isn't much, but it's still more than the numbers you are suggesting for the expansive area that is K-W/Guelph/Cambridge.)

You are DEAD wrong on the corporate support and presence in Winnipeg vs. K-W.

Winnipeg is home to CanWest Global, Great-West LifeCo and MTS (all of which are "bigger" than RIM and Toyota Canada Manufacturing ).

When you compare the rest of the private sector, you will see that Winnipeg actually not only has more companies but largers ones as well.

First, for the last ****ing time, The K-W and Guelph (all of which would be under 30 minutes from an arena) has a population that is very similar to Winnipeg and Quebec city. The "surounding" areas would buy some individual game tickets, but more importantly, you get to show the games on TV to these people (which gives you alot bigger local TV deal than Winnipeg or Quebec city could get). In short, similar attendance with similar corporate support with 8 mil instead of maybe 2 mil in the local TV rights region to the Toronto market (and you will get Toronto companies adverstising over the TV). That is a LARGE, LARGE difference, probably coming to somwhere around $10 mil US in extra revenues. If it were the penguins, then you would get the right to broadcast Crosby 50-60 times a year to Toronto. That is a valuable, valuable thing.

 

[krudmonk]

Disregarding the economic pros and cons of Las Vegas, what kind of morale boost would it be for a team to constantly play in front of at least 50% opposing fans? The tourist factor could almost work too well in that sense.

 

[Wetcoaster]

And yet I've read in a few places that the NHL said "yeah, 15,000 is big enough" in a few different places.

I have never seen such a quote from an NHL official.

Here is what Mark Chipman who runs the Manitoba Moose had to say on the economics of the "New NHL" and the return of the NHL to Winnipeg when interviewed by Ken Wiebe of the Winnipeg Sun in January 2006. And since then the salary cap is expected to take another jump.

"People should understand now that if this were ever possible, it wouldn't be possible at the upper end of that salary range," said Chipman. "You're going to have a team that, at best, is at the mid-range or lower."

"What's starting to reveal itself now is that the economics of this new world order, so to speak, aren't that different. Players salaries have gone down very nominally and it's still a very expensive league to operate in. What they've done is level the playing field. But there are still lots of teams at or very close to the payrolls they were working with before the lockout."

Winnipeg simply does not work on so many levels for the NHL. Sad but true.

 

[Wetcoaster]

oh, oh. the lawyers are getting involved.

get'em wetcoaster !

wait. you hate winnipeg.

my skills at the internets have been soundly defeated.

i will withdraw but be back one day !!

Where have I ever posted that I "hate Winnipeg"?????

 

[Wetcoaster]

A) This will be litigated in U.S. courts.
B) The general rule in U.S. courts is that punitive damages are not available for breach of contract.
C) The Restatement is not the law, it is a treatise.
D) For tortious interference with contract there must be an independent tort. Care to identify the independent tort?

If it would make you feel better, I'll change my "never" to very highly unlikely.

Which is what I said in my original post. "Great reach" = "very highly unlikely"

The NHL's unilateral re-imposition of conditions that had previously been rejected? Seems to me an independant tort could be pleaded from that.

 

[Rob]

After a second team in Toronto (which seems unlikely due to the Leafs blocking it),

Would the Leafs really be opposed to a second team? The Leafs would continue to sell out regardless. I think a team in Mississauga would be perfect.

 

[Egil]

I think the fact that Toronto (or Hamilton) doesn't have a second team speaks volumes about the Leafs and a 2nd team in Toronto.

 

[66-30-33]

LOL Vegas? wont have much Penguin fan support, that's for sure! maybe some king will watch the Pens play and pay the owner 10 billion dollars to take Crosby home for his little girl to grow up with. Then 8 billion for Malkin to tag along. People bet HUGE on Fleury and Staal and they lose all their money then Fleury and Staal get traded.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

NHL wants Penguins to stay

KEVIN MCGRAN


PITTSBURGH (Dec 23, 2006)

The NHL reiterated it would prefer the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh, prospective buyer Jim Balsillie of BlackBerry fame offered a public apology for slighting Mario Lemieux and the future of the franchise seems just as muddy today as it did yesterday.

"Our preferred market is Pittsburgh," said NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly..

http://www.guelphmercury.com/NASApp...0&call_pageid=1050067726101&col=1050421501465

 

[Jumptheshark]

(Another penguins thread, I know, but what else is there to talk about?)

Now I know that everything is still up in the air with the Penguins, but, just for argument's sake, what are the two best target cities? In my humble opinion:

Las Vegas
Upsides:

• A city with no professional sports teams
• Major attraction with all the young stars on the team
• MONEY, MONEY, MONEY

Downsides:

• That whole gambling thing
• Not a hockey market
• We already have an ice hockey team in the middle of a desert

Winnipeg
Upsides:

• Great hockey market
• Already an arena
• An established fan base (it's Canada, what else is there to say?)

Downsides:

• Finding a good TV contract

I hear that Portland and Kansas City are also in the run for an NHL team, but in my opinion, they do not possess the attraction that these two locations have. How likely is it that Canada will get back a franchise? I'd say the odds are 6-to-1 (pun intended) that NHL governors would pick Las Vegas over Winnipeg. It's unfortunate, but it seems nowadays that Canadians have no say in the actions of the NHL.

Any thoughts?


EDIT: Ah crap, I just noticed the thread with the name "Pittsburgh Penguins sale/arena/slots/etc. thread". Sorry guys.

sORRY
the peg built an arena that seats 15k!!!!!!

way way way too small for the nhl


KC is 10months away from opening a new arena that is tailor made for the nhl

 

[GSC2k2*]

Which is what I said in my original post. "Great reach" = "very highly unlikely"

The NHL's unilateral re-imposition of conditions that had previously been rejected? Seems to me an independant tort could be pleaded from that.

Exactly what tort is that? That process constitutes the process of negotiation.

Assuming that the conditions had been rejected, which Bill Daly unequivacally stated was incorrect, mind you ...

 

[pdxshark]

Portland's rose garden was built in 1995 and was recently renovated. Seats ~20k, great building to watch hockey in. From what I understand the only renovation left to make it up to par with current NHL building new locker rooms. The only reason I see portland not getting a team while i'm still living here is the lease. Benefits paul allen the most, we basically gave him everything he wanted just so he'd build the arena. The garden is setup perfectly to incorporate the surrounding areas with max(light rail) lines that run to the farthest suburbs and ample public transportation in the downtown area. Portland is also a very urban city with a large portion of the wealthy being relatively young and live in the downtown area. I would compare portland more to NY than LA, based on that fact. Add to that the fact its situated at the intersection of 2 major arteries I-5 and I-84 you've got traffic comming from as far as salem, maybe even eugene and as far north as la center, washington.

If not the lease, than the misconceptions about portlands size and commitment to professional sports will keep investors away for years.

 

[Firefighter Havok]

Hate to say it guys, the pens ARE going to stay...

You vultures can find another team now...I hear San Jose is having money troubles. Go feed on them for a while...

 

[Hartford HockeyFan]

I would really like the Penguins to stay in Pittsburgh. I am with the Penguins fans on this. I also want to warn of Larry Gott my diner, and Mayor Perez. Dont pay attention to them in anyway. Perez has his head so far up his *** he can see the HWBC. Larry is a snake in the grass and I dont trust him either and neither should Pens fans.

Heres to hoping the Penguins stay in Pittsburgh. Watch out for Hartford politicians and the Htfd. Whaler Booster Club.

 

[Keetz]

Hate to say it guys, the pens ARE going to stay...

You vultures can find another team now...I hear San Jose is having money troubles. Go feed on them for a while...

Well I hope your right but don't count on it. The North Stars moved mostly because of an out dated stadium. its just the reality of modern sports. It would be a no brainer to move the team if someone bought them now. Now meaning without a new arena in the near future.

 

[Whalerfan11]

I would really like the Penguins to stay in Hartford. I am with the Penguins fans on this.

Why don't you sit the next few plays out champ. You aren't making any sense.

 

[pdxshark]

san jose moving to portland would make me so happy it'd give us all cancer.

Don't get me wrong, I think the pens should stay in pittsburgh, they're loyal fans and have been a great part of hockey history. All i'm saying is that if they do leave, I hope its here where they will be cherished rather than moved to KC where they'd be more of a sideshow attraction than anything else.

 

[Freezerburn]

As a UW student, I can say that I'd go to a helluva lot more NHL games if there was a team in the K-W area. Whether or not a team could be viable there is another question. I think it is possible.

 

[krudmonk]

Hate to say it guys, the pens ARE going to stay...

You vultures can find another team now...I hear San Jose is having money troubles. Go feed on them for a while...

Misery loves company.