Peak Forsberg vs Peak Lidstrom

[authentic]

You didn't really do anything to dispute the quote you bolded. Forsberg did not come anywhere close to Wayne/Mario domination; there is no reasonable comparison to be made. It's arguable that did not peak at the same level of the best of the non-Big Four.

I really believe he did though.

 

[authentic]

In a 7 game series at their absolute peaks, I take Forsberg 10/10 times.
I don't think some people know how dominant he really was at peak health/prime of his career.

I would take him over peak Crosby or Malkin in this scenario, and I wouldn't have to think about it at all.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I picked his highest point total season, and even in context of "dominating", he won the scoring race by 2 points in the season you are talking about, that is hardly dominating his competition.

I agree with your general point (that Forsberg wasn’t close to Gretzky or Lemieux) but 2003 was definitely his best season. He scored more points in 1996 but that’s because the league-wide level of offence was much higher that year.

 

[daver]

I really believe he did though.

Not statistically. His best season was just after Jagr put up his peak season in 1999 so we have an idea of what one of the best non-Big Four seasons looks like. Forsberg's Art Ross was a strong one, all things considered, but certainly not close to Hull's, or Mikita's or Esposito's best. OV and Malkin have better peak seasons (at least in offensive production).

 

[bathdog]

I find your statement very misleading.

Both players have exactly four games of finals on their resumes. Forsberg had five points, Lindros had three points. Extremely small sample size aside, Lindros played against a vastly superior team that shut the whole team, not just Lindros. Until the finals, Lindros was a force equal to Forsberg's 2002 playoffs thru 3 rounds.

It wasn't relative to Forsberg, it was relative to all names thrown around in this thread. Lindros doesn't have a lot of playoff material outside his big run so that series sometimes define (probably too much) his playoff career.

"Until the finals"... You attempt to do the same thing you sometimes do with Crosby 2009 here, cherry picking series because the finals, when they received very special attention, drag them down, but Forsberg already faced that competition.

Lets look at their respective performance through 3 rounds then...

Forsberg faced the 6th (190 GA), 9th (199 GA), and 3rd (187 GA), defensive teams in the league.
Lindros faced the 25th (280 GA), 6th (208 GA), and 10th (231 GA), defensive teams in the league.

Forsberg was ppg+ every series and lead his team in series scoring in 3/3 series. During these series the Avs has 1 ppg player, 3 ppg players, 1 ppg player.
Lindros was ppg+ every series and lead his team in series scoring in 2/3 series (the 2 worst defensive teams, where he put up 18 points in 10 games). During these series the Flyers has 5 ppg players, 5 ppg players, 3 ppg players.

Forsberg, in team scoring, during these 3 series, was in on 44% (while missing 1 game), 48%, 62%, for a combined 50% (while missing 1 game) of his teams scoring.
Lindros, in team scoring, during these 3 series, was in on 45%, 24%, 45%, for a combined 38% of his teams scoring.

Forsberg was 1st in points, 1st in PPG, 2nd in goals (1st in ES goals, 1st in GWG), 1st in assists.
Lindros was 2nd in points, 1st in PPG, 3rd in goals (2nd in ES goals, not top10 GWG), 5th in assists.

If I recall correctly you're not a fan of accounting for competition/environment, so lets disregard that?

But WAIT, Forsberg had a much better team, right? Yes he did! But we still disregard environment? Probably.

That being said, I think Lindros is on the same tier as Jagr, Sakic, and Forsberg for that era.

I agree Lindros, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin etc. Pick your poison... personal preferences, views, and ways of evaluating players. It's clear some players ranks ahead of others on all-time lists, but it's largely based on longetivity, durability, or consistency.

Not statistically. His best season was just after Jagr put up his peak season in 1999 so we have an idea of what one of the best non-Big Four seasons looks like. Forsberg's Art Ross was a strong one, all things considered, but certainly not close to Hull's, or Mikita's or Esposito's best. OV and Malkin have better peak seasons (at least in offensive production).

You can evaluate seasons in different manners and come up with different conclusions.

Ovechkin probably wins in terms of actual raw numbers.
Malkin probably wins "vs peers".
Forsberg probably wins in terms of actual on ice numbers.

 

[daver]

I agree Lindros, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin etc. Pick your poison... personal preferences, views, and ways of evaluating players. It's clear some players ranks ahead of others on all-time lists, but it's largely based on longetivity, durability, or consistency.

On second thought, only Jagr and Crosby are the only clear 2nd tier players (Top 15 to 20ish all-time). For various reasons, the other players don't fit the criteria.

 

[bathdog]

I agree Lindros, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin etc. Pick your poison... personal preferences, views, and ways of evaluating players. It's clear some players ranks ahead of others on all-time lists, but it's largely based on longetivity, durability, or consistency.

On second thought, only Jagr and Crosby are the only clear 2nd tier players (Top 15 to 20ish all-time). For various reasons, the other players don't fit the criteria.

No idea why you're quoting me. I clearly stated that, this is a discussion about peak, not career all time rankings.

 

[Flamesjustwin]

Lidstrom AINEC. Floppa is still the most overrated player in HF history.

 

[KevinRedkey]

In a 7 game series at their absolute peaks, I take Forsberg 10/10 times.
I don't think some people know how dominant he really was at peak health/prime of his career.

In that case I'd take Sam Gagner at his peak over Forsberg. Can;t deny those 8 points! lol

 

[authentic]

In that case I'd take Sam Gagner at his peak over Forsberg. Can;t deny those 8 points! lol

Lol.

 

[authentic]

Lidstrom AINEC. Floppa is still the most overrated player in HF history.

Someone probably wasn't alive when he was at his best.

 

[Flamesjustwin]

Someone probably wasn't alive when he was at his best.

I am 42, you are very wrong.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think people are failing to imagine how crappy the wings would have been without Lidstrom in the 90's.
The man is the 2nd or 3rd best d-man of all time.

Hard to believe this is serious. The 1990s Wings were deeper than any team that has come after them, and you have to go back to at least the Islanders, maybe the Habs dynasty to find a good comparable. There were years when they had 4 good lines and 3 good defensive pairings.

 

[authentic]

I am 42, you are very wrong.

That's even worse then.