Peak Forsberg vs Peak Lidstrom

[Bustedprospect]

Just responding to the above, Forsberg had pretty decent linemates for much of his career, certainly not as bad as a lot of Crosby's. The rest I fully agree with though, Lemieux, Crosby, Lindros and Forsberg to me are the best 4 players since hockey became comparable to today. Peak Ovechkin is right there with them and peak Malkin and Datsyuk are up there as well.

Agreed Forsberg had decent linemates compared to cap-era. Good goaltenders, great d-men and Sakic on the PP. Sakic usually took the harder matchups as well.

He also played on a sort of mini-dynasty so he had the luxury of taking time off and yet making playoffs. Hell they even won a cup without him.

Ovi i think have been underwhelming in the playoffs never passed the second round. You really need to hold that against him. Best peak in RS though.

Jagr was a level above anyone offensivly but never did anything without Lemiuex in playoffs. Lindros at least lead his pretty weak team to the finals.

Forsberg are pretty close with Malkin i would say. If he doesnt go down in 04 i think he win the Ross easily since competition were not that great. Also probably pick up a Smythe.

 

[bathdog]

Just had to reply to this post since I disagreed with so much.

Agreed Forsberg had decent linemates compared to cap-era. Good goaltenders, great d-men and Sakic on the PP.

DPE Avs were really good, and he had some good linemates. But Sakic on PP, how does it differ from Crosby having Malkin or Ovechkin having Backstrom?

Sakic usually took the harder matchups as well.

Source? The reverse is generally accepted.

He also played on a sort of mini-dynasty so he had the luxury of taking time off and yet making playoffs. Hell they even won a cup without him.

And Pens are likely to make the playoffs without Crosby/Malkin, Caps without Ovechkin. Philly would probably struggle without Lindros though. Sakic deserves all credit he gets for his final 2 rounds in 2001, but lets be real, he goes golfing after 2nd round without Forsberg, so no, they don't win the cup without having what ,at that point, was the leading point scorer of the entire playoffs.

Ovi i think have been underwhelming in the playoffs never passed the second round. You really need to hold that against him. Best peak in RS though.

Ovechkin has been fine in the playoffs. Yes he's had some poor showings, and he also shouldn't get credit for things he hasn't done. He's been a bit incosistent, just as in the RS.

Ovechkin has 38 points in 38 second round games and was in on 42% of his teams 90 goals during those matches.

In Ovechkin's "worst" 2nd round he finished 3rd (2-way tie) in team scoring (2017), behind Backstrom and Kuznetsov. He was top 2 5/6 times, and lead his team 3/6 times.

As a reference (and obviously SCF matches are generally clearly tougher opposition), the Pens won the Cup in 09, 16, 17.

Crosby has 14 points in 19 SCF games and was in on 29% of his teams 48 goals during those matches.

In Crosby's "worst" SCF win he finished 4th (4-way tie) in team scoring (2009). He was top 2 1/3 times, and lead his team 1/3 times.

Malkin has 15 points in 19 SCF games and was in on 31% of his teams 48 goals during those matches.

In Malkin's "worst" SCF win he finished 5th (4-way tie) in team scoring (2016). He was top 2 1/3 times, and lead his team 1/3 times.

As you can see, even on a relative basis, offensively, Ovechkin has individually done more to get out of the second round, than Crosby/Malkin has done during the SCF finals they won. Yet, people deceptively bake in team accomplishments when they invent terms like "Conn Smythe worthy runs" while also stating Ovechkin has been a playoff choker.

I obviously clearly think Crosby/Malkin have been better playoff players, but Capitals, the team, has been a playoff catastrophe, whereas the Pens duo owe parts of their success to the support they've had.

Jagr was a level above anyone offensivly but never did anything without Lemiuex in playoffs. Lindros at least lead his pretty weak team to the finals.

Lindros also got shut down most effectively of any name thrown around in this thread come finals time.

Forsberg are pretty close with Malkin i would say. If he doesnt go down in 04 i think he win the Ross easily since competition were not that great. Also probably pick up a Smythe.

Forsberg and Malkin often makes interesting discussions. Forsberg probably wins the 04 Ross given it was the biggest lead outside of Crosby partial (they both coincidentally lost it to MSL) this side of the millennium. No idea why you'd award him an imaginary Smythe though consdidering his team was nowhere close to winning the Cup.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Just had to reply to this post since I disagreed with so much.



DPE Avs were really good, and he had some good linemates. But Sakic on PP, how does it differ from Crosby having Malkin or Ovechkin having Backstrom?

Source? The reverse is generally accepted.

And Pens are likely to make the playoffs without Crosby/Malkin, Caps without Ovechkin. Philly would probably struggle without Lindros though. Sakic deserves all credit he gets for his final 2 rounds in 2001, but lets be real, he goes golfing after 2nd round without Forsberg, so no, they don't win the cup without having what ,at that point, was the leading point scorer of the entire playoffs.


Ovechkin has been fine in the playoffs. Yes he's had some poor showings, and he also shouldn't get credit for things he hasn't done. He's been a bit incosistent, just as in the RS.

Ovechkin has 38 points in 38 second round games and was in on 42% of his teams 90 goals during those matches.

In Ovechkin's "worst" 2nd round he finished 3rd (2-way tie) in team scoring (2017), behind Backstrom and Kuznetsov. He was top 2 5/6 times, and lead his team 3/6 times.

As a reference (and obviously SCF matches are generally clearly tougher opposition), the Pens won the Cup in 09, 16, 17.

Crosby has 14 points in 19 SCF games and was in on 29% of his teams 48 goals during those matches.

In Crosby's "worst" SCF win he finished 4th (4-way tie) in team scoring (2009). He was top 2 1/3 times, and lead his team 1/3 times.

Malkin has 15 points in 19 SCF games and was in on 31% of his teams 48 goals during those matches.

In Malkin's "worst" SCF win he finished 5th (4-way tie) in team scoring (2016). He was top 2 1/3 times, and lead his team 1/3 times.

As you can see, even on a relative basis, offensively, Ovechkin has individually done more to get out of the second round, than Crosby/Malkin has done during the SCF finals they won. Yet, people deceptively bake in team accomplishments when they invent terms like "Conn Smythe worthy runs" while also stating Ovechkin has been a playoff choker.

I obviously clearly think Crosby/Malkin have been better playoff players, but Capitals, the team, has been a playoff catastrophe, whereas the Pens duo owe parts of their success to the support they've had.



Lindros also got shut down most effectively of any name thrown around in this thread come finals time.



Forsberg and Malkin often makes interesting discussions. Forsberg probably wins the 04 Ross given it was the biggest lead outside of Crosby partial (they both coincidentally lost it to MSL) this side of the millennium. No idea why you'd award him an imaginary Smythe though consdidering his team was nowhere close to winning the Cup.

Crosby had essentially nobody to work his wings early career. I just listed the advantages i think Peter had over some other players. Nolan, Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Kamensky, Tanguay and Hejduk are not bad players. Some good d-men to feed the puck as well.

Colorado were good enough to win a final without Forsberg i think that says it all how great team they were.

Sakic did take tougher defensive roles. But i guess this can be debatable depending on what period.

Regarding Ovi im not sure i agree. He did put up some points but really failed to elevate it when it mattered. Backstrom are also lacking this extra gear im afraid. Especially worrying are the last few playoffs.

04 i wasnt talking about the Smythe. But i think Forsberg lost one Smyth due to injury at least. So he could easily ended up with 2x Ross and a Smythe.

Lindros had a big peak but never the supporting cast. Detroit had like 7 hall of famers on that team. Not a even matchup at all.

 

[bathdog]

Crosby had essentially nobody to work his wings early career. I just listed the advantages i think Peter had over some other players. Nolan, Lemieux, Deadmarsh, Kamensky, Tanguay and Hejduk are not bad players.

I agree, Forsberg generally had better linemates than Crosby. I don't really put much stock in linemates because unless there are really impactful players in the mix, because chemistry is a personal thing that makes their impact very hard to quantify. What looks good on paper doesn't really work out irl.

Some good d-men to feed the puck as well.

I see you omitted goalie this time! Who are you thinking of? Blake? Ozolinsh? Foote? Bourque?

Are their offensive ability really a huge upgrade over Letang and Gonchar?

Colorado were good enough to win a final without Forsberg i think that says it all how great team they were.

The 2001 Avs team was superb, one of the best in recent times. Not sure where you're trying to head with this.

Both DPE Avs, and post lockout Pens have been great teams, both in absolute terms and relative terms. Either of the 4 superstars could miss a significant chunk of time and be pretty confident to make the playoffs, as evident by the fact that the Pens duo never missed the playoffs either.

Sakic did take tougher defensive roles. But i guess this can be debatable depending on what period.

It can definitely be debated. Forsberg was a good defensive player entering the league whereas Sakic was quite poor at that time.

Forsberg appeared to be targeted more so naturally Sakic would see more time against opponents offensive players if that's what you mean.

Regarding Ovi im not sure i agree. He did put up some points but really failed to elevate it when it mattered. Backstrom are also lacking this extra gear im afraid. Especially worrying are the last few playoffs.

Seems like a subjective way of evaluating what points matters.

Crosby won the Smythe in 2016 as, if I recall correctly, the only player to fail to score a goal in the finals, and having the 2nd worst ppg in history among Smythe winning forwards while getting outscored by a defenseman on his own team.
Malkin? Lets not go there.

Malkin won the Smythe in 2009, with one of the more impressive runs in the history of the game, and a great 8 points in 7 games, it's actually somewhat hard to criticize him, but lets apply some additional context anyway. In the Crosby vs Malkin debates, Crosby facing tougher matchups usually gets a ton of weight. Z/Lids was matched on Crosby, Malkin scored 7 points in the first 4 games. Once Datsyuk came back, Malkin managed 1 assist in three games on the brink of elimination.
Crosby? Lets not go there. Ok, lets mention briefly. 0 points in final 3 games, on brink of elimination.

Those are traits of elevation when it matters, right?

Backstrom has left a fair bit to be desired though.

04 i wasnt talking about the Smythe. But i think Forsberg lost one Smyth due to injury at least. So he could easily ended up with 2x Ross and a Smythe.

When do you figure then? Forsberg actually has a great participation rate in the playoffs (89% of possible games with Avs). The only time he missed significant time was in 01.

Lindros had a big peak but never the supporting cast. Detroit had like 7 hall of famers on that team. Not a even matchup at all.

Lindros was a tremendous player at his peak. I wasn't talking about team accomplishments such as winning the Cup, or even putting up a respectable performance as a team, but the fact that Lindros himself got handled quite effectively.

 

[daver]

Lindros also got shut down most effectively of any name thrown around in this thread come finals time.

I find your statement very misleading.

Both players have exactly four games of finals on their resumes. Forsberg had five points, Lindros had three points. Extremely small sample size aside, Lindros played against a vastly superior team that shut the whole team, not just Lindros. Until the finals, Lindros was a force equal to Forsberg's 2002 playoffs thru 3 rounds.

That being said, I think Lindros is on the same tier as Jagr, Sakic, and Forsberg for that era.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

I saw all of the Detroit games that playoff season, many Colorado games. Forsberg was the best player in the playoffs that year. I can certainly see a playoff case to be made for Lidstrom over Forsberg, but it is certainly not based on the 2002 playoffs.

Wait, what? I would never make that case, ever.

Forsberg is one of the best playoff performers in history. Lidstrom's 2002 campaign was magical but I don't think anyone can argue that he turned it up a notch regularly in the playoffs, he just played as good as he always did, which is essentially his career MO.

 

[HarryLime]

Sakic > Forsberg

 

[CashMash]

Forsberg for me. Best Swedish player ever in terms of ability...In my book, at least.

 

[Binister]

Forward vs defender. This is a great comparison, how to even compare them?

 

[Jarey Curry]

How do you determine what is an actual peak for each player really? Forsberg at best was unstoppable so Forsberg peak = Gretzky's peak.

 

[Oddbob]

Forsberg reached a level of dominance second to none at his best. If that would have lasted longer he would be mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidstrom lasted long, but never reached quite that high level.

Wow, that takes the cake as the most absurd thing I have read on these forums. Forsberg didn't even dominate his own peers like Gretzky and Lemieux did theirs, let alone get anywhere near their level. Forsberg wasn't even as good as Yzerman, despite this overrated level he is put on by his fans. Never once, have I heard any hockey pundit, declare that Forsberg was the third best player ever. Gretzky outscored his opposition by 70 pts in some years, Forsberg didn't even come anywhere near close to blowing away his peers like that.

Forsberg's best season ever he finished 5th in the scoring Race

1) Lemieux 161
2) Jagr 149
3) Sakic 120
4) Francis 119
5) Forsberg 116

He didn't even dominate his own teammate in Sakic, so how is he even in the universe in comparison to Gretzky or Lemieux??? Not even considering this was his best statistical season, and he still didn't lead the league in points. Even take Lemieux out of it, and he still lost out to Jagr by 33 pts. His next highest total was 106 pts, and he won the scoring race by a whole 2 points over Markus Naslund, so where is this supposed dominance a la Gretzky or Lemieux.

And then on to Lidstrom, yeah you are right, a defenceman who averaged 60 pts per season over a 19 year career never really hit that high of a level, plus he only won 7 Norris's and nominated for at least half a dozen more.

 

[Albatros]

Forsberg was never only about scoring, but about dominating all areas of the game. And that totally was the case in Colorado as well. Take that 106-point season for example, Forsberg was +52 playing with Hejduk and Tanguay, while Sakic reached only +4. At the time Sakic was to Forsberg what Messier was to Gretzky.

 

[Ben White]

Forsberg AINEC

 

[SotasicA]

1. Peter Forsberg
2. Nicklas Lidstrom
3. Filip Forsberg
4. Anton Forsberg

Covers all the bases.

 

[Ben White]

Wow, that takes the cake as the most absurd thing I have read on these forums. Forsberg didn't even dominate his own peers like Gretzky and Lemieux did theirs, let alone get anywhere near their level. Forsberg wasn't even as good as Yzerman, despite this overrated level he is put on by his fans. Never once, have I heard any hockey pundit, declare that Forsberg was the third best player ever. Gretzky outscored his opposition by 70 pts in some years, Forsberg didn't even come anywhere near close to blowing away his peers like that.

Forsberg's best season ever he finished 5th in the scoring Race

1) Lemieux 161
2) Jagr 149
3) Sakic 120
4) Francis 119
5) Forsberg 116

He didn't even dominate his own teammate in Sakic, so how is he even in the universe in comparison to Gretzky or Lemieux??? Not even considering this was his best statistical season, and he still didn't lead the league in points. Even take Lemieux out of it, and he still lost out to Jagr by 33 pts. His next highest total was 106 pts, and he won the scoring race by a whole 2 points over Markus Naslund, so where is this supposed dominance a la Gretzky or Lemieux.

And then on to Lidstrom, yeah you are right, a defenceman who averaged 60 pts per season over a 19 year career never really hit that high of a level, plus he only won 7 Norris's and nominated for at least half a dozen more.

Wow. Can you try to be a little more contextless?

 

[Oddbob]

Wow. Can you try to be a little more context less?

I am 100% on context with my quote.

 

[DFF]

Lidstrom because his "peak" lasted over 10 yrs

 

[biturbo19]

I'd go with the Defenceman who can anchor an entire blueline. Hard to go wrong either way though, just think one of the top defencemen of all time is too hard a building block to turn down, even for Forsberg.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Forsberg's best season ever he finished 5th in the scoring Race

Forsberg's best season was 2002-03, when he won the Hart and Art Ross.

 

[Oddbob]

Forsberg's best season was 2002-03, when he won the Hart and Art Ross.

I picked his highest point total season, and even in context of "dominating", he won the scoring race by 2 points in the season you are talking about, that is hardly dominating his competition.

 

[BM14]

In a 7 game series at their absolute peaks, I take Forsberg 10/10 times.
I don't think some people know how dominant he really was at peak health/prime of his career.

 

[Skip2myBordyloo]

Wow, that takes the cake as the most absurd thing I have read on these forums. Forsberg didn't even dominate his own peers like Gretzky and Lemieux did theirs, let alone get anywhere near their level. Forsberg wasn't even as good as Yzerman, despite this overrated level he is put on by his fans. Never once, have I heard any hockey pundit, declare that Forsberg was the third best player ever. Gretzky outscored his opposition by 70 pts in some years, Forsberg didn't even come anywhere near close to blowing away his peers like that.

Peter Forsberg has the 8th highest ppg of all time. How is that not blowing away his peers? Injuries were clearly the demise of his career. Guy was always in the top 10 of scoring despite missing near 10-20 games a year, I'm not sure how that isn't domination, especially if you factor in his play style compared to other players who more or less rack up points alone, you have to be crazy to say he didn't dominate when he played.

The guy was the highest scoring point producer in the 2002 playoffs, the Avs didn't even make the finals. That is pure domination.

Now to breathe his name in the name over the likes of Lemieux and Gretzky is reaching but come on.

 

[IPS]

Peak Forsberg hands down. He could play Patty Kane's perimeter game, Crosby's down low/grinding game, and absolutely demolish guys (obviously his crazy level of physicality resulted in him being injured a lot). It was almost hilarious watching him with the puck, you practically needed to mug him to get it from him. Just an incredibly unique forward with one of the best playmaking touches ever seen.

 

[daver]

Peter Forsberg has the 8th highest ppg of all time. How is that not blowing away his peers? Injuries were clearly the demise of his career. Guy was always in the top 10 of scoring despite missing near 10-20 games a year, I'm not sure how that isn't domination, especially if you factor in his play style compared to other players who more or less rack up points alone, you have to be crazy to say he didn't dominate when he played.

The guy was the highest scoring point producer in the 2002 playoffs, the Avs didn't even make the finals. That is pure domination.

Now to breathe his name in the name over the likes of Lemieux and Gretzky is reaching but come on.

You didn't really do anything to dispute the quote you bolded. Forsberg did not come anywhere close to Wayne/Mario domination; there is no reasonable comparison to be made. It's arguable that did not peak at the same level of the best of the non-Big Four.

 

[authentic]

Peter Forsberg has the 8th highest ppg of all time. How is that not blowing away his peers? Injuries were clearly the demise of his career. Guy was always in the top 10 of scoring despite missing near 10-20 games a year, I'm not sure how that isn't domination, especially if you factor in his play style compared to other players who more or less rack up points alone, you have to be crazy to say he didn't dominate when he played.

The guy was the highest scoring point producer in the 2002 playoffs, the Avs didn't even make the finals. That is pure domination.

Now to breathe his name in the name over the likes of Lemieux and Gretzky is reaching but come on.

He did the same thing in 1999. Guy was arguably the best player since Lemieux at his peak. Between him, Lindros, Crosby and Ovechkin IMO.