Peak Forsberg vs Peak Lidstrom

[1specter]

Better player at their peak performance and health?

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[Trendkill101]

Peak Health Forsberg always wins!

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Forsberg best, Lidstrom greatest.

 

[Bustedprospect]

Lidstrom sort of lacks a peak. He got a 15 year long prime instead.

 

[tony d]

Peak Forsberg. Lidstrom was greater but he didn't really have a peak.

 

[JackSlater]

Their peaks pretty much coincided and it was nearly unanimous that Forsberg was the better player. Lidstrom was at that level for much longer though.

 

[bathdog]

Lidstrom's peak tend to get underrated imo, but Forsberg for me.

 

[Albatros]

Forsberg reached a level of dominance second to none at his best. If that would have lasted longer he would be mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidström lasted long, but never reached quite that high level.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Forsberg reached a level of dominance second to none at his best. If that would have lasted longer he would be mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidström lasted long, but never reached quite that high level.

This is why so many people call Forsberg overrated. Forsberg fans need to relax with the fantasy.

 

[JackSlater]

Forsberg reached a level of dominance second to none at his best. If that would have lasted longer he would be mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidström lasted long, but never reached quite that high level.

Yes. It's difficult to fathom a player winning a scoring title by two points, winning a Hart trophy with 38/62 first place votes and finishing second for the Lindsay. And that was with THE Markus Naslund as his primary competition! We may never see his like again.

 

[Albatros]

Forsberg was never only about points despite scoring plenty, but elevated his whole team to another level with his complete game that had it all. That's why he's in the Triple Gold Club twice.

 

[authentic]

Yes. It's difficult to fathom a player winning a scoring title by two points, winning a Hart trophy with 38/62 first place votes and finishing second for the Lindsay. And that was with THE Markus Naslund as his primary competition! We may never see his like again.

Posts like these really make him out to be not as good as he was though.

 

[authentic]

Forsberg was never only about points despite scoring plenty, but elevated his whole team to another level with his complete game that had it all. That's why he's in the Triple Gold Club twice.

The way I see it is no one could dominate like they did in their time, and they wouldn't dominate today like they did then. Lemieux at his best was better though, I won't get into Gretzky.

 

[Canovin]

Peak Forsberg. Lidstrom was greater but he didn't really have a peak.

Calm, cool and collected don't need peak. Just like how Gretzky never had a peak

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Lidstrom never had a regular season peak, but I'd say that his playoff peak is equal to any of Forsberg's. Lidstrom was God in 2002.

 

[dr robbie]

Forsberg reached a level of dominance second to none at his best. If that would have lasted longer he would be mentioned in the same sentence with Gretzky and Lemieux. Lidström lasted long, but never reached quite that high level.

Can i still vote foppa even though i disagree with everything this guy said?

 

[Future GOAT]

Forsberg easy.

 

[JackSlater]

Forsberg was never only about points despite scoring plenty, but elevated his whole team to another level with his complete game that had it all. That's why he's in the Triple Gold Club twice.

Forsberg was a good, not great, defensive player. Great possession player. The distance between Forsberg and Gretzky/Lemieux on offence is so huge that being good defensively (while they were adequate) and great in possession (while they very close in this regard) does little to close the gap. I did get a laugh at bringing up the triple gold club though.

Posts like these really make him out to be not as good as he was though.

While I was being sarcastic, what I posted was factual. Peak Forsberg wasn't exactly blowing away the other top players. He's far, far removed from Lemieux/Gretzky. Of course he is also a great player.

Lidstrom never had a regular season peak, but I'd say that his playoff peak is equal to any of Forsberg's. Lidstrom was God in 2002.

And now things swing the other way. Forsberg was the obvious best player in the 2002 playoffs, not Lidstrom. Lidstrom was one of the many Detroit players mentioned as Conn Smythe contenders going into the final game. Forsberg lead the playoffs in scoring despite not even making the finals.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

And now things swing the other way. Forsberg was the obvious best player in the 2002 playoffs, not Lidstrom. Lidstrom was one of the many Detroit players mentioned as Conn Smythe contenders going into the final game. Forsberg lead the playoffs in scoring despite not even making the finals.

Pretty sure defensemen don't have a meaningful metric like that.

But if they did, Lidstrom would've dominated it that year. He was absolutely exceptional and while Detroit had several players that played very well (Stevie, Chelios, Fedorov), Lidstrom was better than them all and reviewing the tape will show it.

And as far as players "mentioned" for the Smythe that year, Hull's name was tossed around. So there's that level of credibility.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

This is why so many people call Forsberg overrated. Forsberg fans need to relax with the fantasy.

Yup. Everybody loves to bring up his career PPG average like it wouldn't have plummeted if not for the fact that his NHL career was pretty much over at 34.

 

[JackSlater]

Pretty sure defensemen don't have a meaningful metric like that.

But if they did, Lidstrom would've dominated it that year. He was absolutely exceptional and while Detroit had several players that played very well (Stevie, Chelios, Fedorov), Lidstrom was better than them all and reviewing the tape will show it.

And as far as players "mentioned" for the Smythe that year, Hull's name was tossed around. So there's that level of credibility.

I saw all of the Detroit games that playoff season, many Colorado games. Forsberg was the best player in the playoffs that year. I can certainly see a playoff case to be made for Lidstrom over Forsberg, but it is certainly not based on the 2002 playoffs.

I'm also not saying that Lidstrom wasn't the most deserving player on Detroit, even though I did want Yzerman to win it. Lidstrom deserved it. But there was certainly discussion regarding Lidstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, even Hasek and Hull. It wasn't like Lidstrom was "God" as you suggested and was an obvious, clearcut lock.

 

[bathdog]

Forsberg was a good, not great, defensive player. Great possession player. The distance between Forsberg and Gretzky/Lemieux on offence is so huge that being good defensively (while they were adequate) and great in possession (while they very close in this regard) does little to close the gap. I did get a laugh at bringing up the triple gold club though.

While I was being sarcastic, what I posted was factual. Peak Forsberg wasn't exactly blowing away the other top players. He's far, far removed from Lemieux/Gretzky. Of course he is also a great player.

And now things swing the other way. Forsberg was the obvious best player in the 2002 playoffs, not Lidstrom. Lidstrom was one of the many Detroit players mentioned as Conn Smythe contenders going into the final game. Forsberg lead the playoffs in scoring despite not even making the finals.

While Forsberg clearly wouldn't have been Gretzky's/Lemiuex's equal if not for injuries, there are a lot more people blindly screaming "overrated", than those making such statements, these days. He wasn't exactly used in an all out offensive role for nearly all of his career. People like Trophies, and his trophy case is certainly a bit underwhelming, but it could've looked a lot different if not for his bad fortune (04, 06, and full season lockout in middle of peak). He could hang with anyone else in modern history, the underlying statistics are there.

Yup. Everybody loves to bring up his career PPG average like it wouldn't have plummeted if not for the fact that his NHL career was pretty much over at 34.

Obviously yes, but he was still an impact player in 08 despite injuries. I'm sure you realize this applies to any currently active relevant player, save Jagr, and the only active player who's ahead of him is Crosby (RS).

 

[thadd]

I think people are failing to imagine how crappy the wings would have been without Lidstrom in the 90's.
The man is the 2nd or 3rd best d-man of all time.

 

[snu22fint]

Forsberg is 4th in era adjusted PPG behind Lemieux, Gretzky and Crosby. It's very possible that Crosby will have a significantly lower PPG in his next 4 years until he is the same age as Forsberg was when he retired, so we might see Forsberg overtake Crosby or at least close the gap.

During his entire career there was 4 players with higher PPG. Lemieux, Crosby, Ovechkin and Jagr. Ovechkin and Crosby only played around 250 games during Forsbergs career and Forsberg actually had higher PPG in his first 250 games than Ovechkin. Then there is Jagr whos PPG (1.32) was boosted quite a bit by playing on the same line as Lemieux and Francis for a few seasons while Forsbers best linemate was probably Hejduk. Forsberg was also a more complete player than both Ovechkin and Jagr even though both of those players have qualities that Forsberg lack.

So in his entire career there was, in my opinion, only Crosby, Lemieux and Lindros that was on the same level or higher than Forsberg. This is in my opinion why Forsberg is a very underrated player.

I think Forsberg's and Crosby's careers are very similar so far. Both played on very good teams but never had elite linesmates. Both had health problems, Crosby (concussions) Forsberg (foot). Both are complete players with impact all over the ice. They are nr 3 and 4 in era adjusted PPG. Crosby had the better career and more awards but also had more healthy seasons. If both players had better linesmate and healthier careers they would have made the gap to Gretzky and Lemieux look a bit smaller I think.

No, I don't think Forsberg is quite as good as Crosby, but I really think Forsberg is very underrated.

Voted Forsberg in the poll. I think he is the best Swedish player of all time.

 

[authentic]

Just responding to the above, Forsberg had pretty decent linemates for much of his career, certainly not as bad as a lot of Crosby's. The rest I fully agree with though, Lemieux, Crosby, Lindros and Forsberg to me are the best 4 players since hockey became comparable to today. Peak Ovechkin is right there with them and peak Malkin and Datsyuk are up there as well.